Transcription

• Speaker #0

  It's like I don't identify with depression. Like the way I am is actually very bubbly and smiley and very playful and colorful. And of course, like myself with depression is a bit different. But yeah, I don't feel defined by depression. It's there. I can feel it also in this period, but not all the time is visible or obvious.

• Speaker #1

  Hello and welcome to L'Anomalie, the podcast that opens up the conversation around illness. and disability. This podcast is usually in French, as you may notice from my very cute accent. But Roby and I decided to record this episode in English so that it could reach as many people as possible. In this conversation, we talk about Roby's relationship with depression. Throughout this conversation, Roby talks about the distinctions he draws between his own identity and his depression. As he mentions, it is essential for him to keep in mind who the real Roby is. We also discussed the importance of self-knowledge and the role that therapy has played in helping him live better with his condition. The conversation is a little unusual in that Robbie asked me a lot of questions, which means I also talk about my own illness, multiple sclerosis. This is a neurological condition that can be negatively affected by anxiety, since mental health is something that personal affects me too, I allowed myself to take up a little more space in this discussion. I hope you will enjoy the conversation with Roby and that it will give you some foot for foot. So hello Roby, I'm super happy to be with you today.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you very much, I'm very happy to be here with you.

• Speaker #1

  So this is my first interview in English, I'm a bit anxious but I know it's gonna be okay.

• Speaker #0

  Okay yeah we'll take it easy.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And I feel super safe with you, so I know it's gonna be chill. Yeah. So today we're gonna talk about you and about the topic of depression.

• Speaker #0

  Yes.

• Speaker #1

  So we really met like two weeks ago. We had a coffee together and you told me about your life with depression. Really in an easygoing way. I was a bit surprised. So thanks for your trust.

• Speaker #0

  You're welcome. I mean, obviously.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And to be more precise, actually, you're one of my... best friend's boyfriends so you are wukash boyfriend then wukash was like but obviously he trusted you you're my friend and i was like this is not so easy but so thank you obviously having like a an important person like as a common friend helped but i think i had like a good gut feeling when i was around you so it really helped and we were in a very peaceful place a feminist park and queer bar so it was a perfect place but not really quiet not quiet at all that was great but i appreciated the fact that you you talked a lot so we were speaking in italian in an italian place about really difficult topics and you were like okay let's go i'm gonna talk about it i don't really care yeah but i was a bit surprised because sometimes people are a bit um shy or conscious about the environment no i think that maybe because i feel like an expat

• Speaker #0

  as well so in a way it doesn't really bother me but also yeah we kind of like formed a bubble so we were just talking to each other if anyone else was listening it's up to them but I wasn't really focusing so no big deal absolutely so to

• Speaker #1

  start the conversation can you describe yourself in your own words because I'm not able to tell a lot about you and I think it's more interesting to know what we need to know about you

• Speaker #0

  Um, what can I say? I'm 38. I think that the most important thing to say about me is that I lived in different countries, a lot of different countries. So in Italy, I moved a lot for university, and then I moved to the Netherlands for a few years. And then I spent the last seven, eight years in Australia. And I think all this big changes also had an effect on on depression, which is the topic we're talking about. I started studying mathematics and then I moved into design. And the last few years I was busy like doing a PhD. So these are all like all different things that also connect to the topic in a way or another. So this month I'm here in Italy. I'm trying to restore like my positive energies to take my next step. I'd like to start a new degree actually in psychology. As you can see, things are... connected in like with depression in in different ways this is like a general introduction anything else you want to know exactly no no nothing actually the main thing i would like to add is that you are someone really smiling and

• Speaker #1

  this is really something that maybe people will a bit hear because you kind of hear people smiling during podcast and i wanted to please precise this because this is really something that struck me.

• Speaker #0

  is it correct yeah the first time i saw you you were super friendly and yeah absolutely absolutely i mean um i guess like over the years i also like developed a kind of like detachment from from depression and um it's definitely something we're gonna talk about i guess it's like i don't identify with with depression and so like the way i am is actually very bubbly and smiley and very playful and colorful and so And of course, like myself with depression is. different but like for example when i met you like of course my identity like prevailed and i was just really happy and what i think you're doing with with this podcast is beautiful so i also felt like you know elevated and inspired yeah i don't feel defined my by depression and it's there i can feel it also in this period but not all the time is visible or obvious especially to another person's eyes.

• Speaker #1

  Actually, we had a long discussion about this, about the difference that you make between your own identity and depression and in your way of conceiving these things. I understood that depression is absolutely not a part of your identity and I found it really interesting because it's totally the opposite for me. Not for depression, but for multiple sclerosis.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, it's like a very interesting metaphor for your situation of having like a housemate, right? Quite an energetic, lively and very vocal housemate, I think, that you really need to consider in everything you do. For me, I definitely consider depression as a part, actually a big part of my experience of life. So I cannot deny that. Through the weeks, the months, the years, I've, like, I cannot deny that I experienced it. It was strong, yes, it was strong and very present. But at the same time, I felt it was kind of like on my side or attached to me, but not inside of me. So maybe, yeah, depression could be my housemate, but not within my identity, but just within my life. But my identity would still be like my own room with my own things. So kind of like, kind of separate. And of course, depression is a bit of a label in the sense that it is helpful for me and for other people, especially like GPs, psychologists, etc., to understand what things are in action, you know, especially in the background. But I don't feel defined entirely by that label. It's like any other label, to be honest. like there are a few labels that are applicable to me but at the same time Just like little nuances of a bigger whole. And so, yeah, if I had to like list like adjectives or characteristics that describe me, I don't think I would list depression or depressed because I don't think it's part of my identity. But if you ask me to list like my states of being, my experiences, of course, depression would be there and probably like a big, bold.

• Speaker #1

  kind of word what is your take what what do you think about for example your own your own condition oh yeah um actually this is what you mentioned well for me i have a feeling that i share my body with someone and for me she is someone so my disease because in french and in italian my disease is a she so la sclerosis multipla or la sclerose en plaque It's not like in English, like an it.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, we give a gender.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, we give a gender. And actually, I appreciate this idea of sharing my body with someone. So she's like a character in my life. And she is the dysfunctional Juliet.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  yeah.

• Speaker #0

  One of the many Juliettes that populate you.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, actually, I have a lot of characters in my life. And she is the main, not the main one, but one of the most important. Cheers. my anxious spots my the part of me who doesn't trust herself i have to give her some space because she's a part of me so i have to respect her but she cannot take the lead so i have to say okay dysfunctional julietta you're taking too much space so we're gonna talk together we're gonna say goodbye to friends for a while just have a nice moment together to understand what trying to tell me but I don't want you to attack me anymore so this is how I deal with this part of me yeah and actually it's okay in but I agree with you if I had to define myself I wouldn't say that I am sick that I have a multiple sclerosis or anything this is something I choose to say to people because this is part of my experience in life so I am who I am now partly because she's there now so I had to accept her. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  it's interesting. You're also like bringing up the topic of when to share it with other people, because obviously it's something that we deal with within ourselves. And so it's definitely something. that is part of your relationship with yourself but the moment you interact with other people or you establish a relation with another person something that is at a higher level like a friendship or a romantic relationship for example for depression i think that it's a really important point to bring up in in early conversations like with wukash and also with with like my previous boyfriends it's typically a conversation that i have pretty early if not even when we are still messaging. So before even meeting in person, I just want to clarify that this is part of the bundle. Also, because I guess there are a lot of like misconceptions around it. And so I'd rather explain my own experience and what I think of it rather than having people just Google it or just use their, you know, previous conceptions of it in the way they interact with me. So in that sense, it's definitely something that I bring forward pretty soon because it's there. it's not what i don't feel it as part of my identity it's part of my experience of life and so if i share my life with the person depression will be there uh it's definitely not something that i can lock up away while i do anything

• Speaker #1

  else so usually how do you describe depression how do you explain what do you say about this because as you mentioned there are a lot of misconceptions yeah there are a lot of mecons

• Speaker #0

  misconceptions I think that the strongest misconception is related to the difference between depression as an emotional state a temporary emotional state and depression as a condition so in medical terms they use like magic um sorry a major depressive disorder which sounds also very very big and and difficult but it's really important to separate the two things because it first of all it like it precludes the other person from saying things like it's just a period or just do things that you like and it will go away that works if you are depressed as in like i'm a bit sad right but when you are depressed as in like this is like a disorder that i'm experiencing in this period like those things they absolutely don't work and they minimize they trivialize what i what i experience which is like much deeper and so that's the first misconception in general i would say it's It's a condition of the mind that has a lot of characteristics, but in general tends to be characterized by a sense of sadness or a sense of emptiness, a sense of hopelessness for things, in general pessimism. So always seeing things, always noticing things from their negative side, from the negative perspective. And so there is a lot of like... consequences to that so like lower self-esteem there is like a tendency for example to avoid situations to withdraw socially or from anything it comes with a lot of like different details and so for example with wukash like i unpacked what depression is and what effects it has in multiple conversations because it's a very complex situation and it brings like consequences that you might not expect. For example, the fact that it reduces my capacity to concentrate or my creative capacity. This is particularly important to me as I studied design and so I felt the urge or the pressure to be creative and when the pressure is strong, my creativity is really, really limited. I have a kind of tunnel vision and I can only see a lot of small... details, but I cannot draw larger conclusions. Making decisions become extremely difficult. Yeah, in a conversation, I can explain all of that. And one thing that I find always very important to say, especially to my partners, but also to dear friends, is the fact that I always want to make sure that my mood or my mental state, if it goes down, is not due to them, when it's not due to them, obviously. So I explain that like, this is pathological. This is not due to anything you've done so that they don't feel guilty or... And at the same time, when I'm down, I want them not to feel the pressure to support me and also to acknowledge that they are not therapists. And they can provide support, but also I kind of make them understand that if it doesn't work and if they don't see my mood going up, it's not their fault, absolutely. And I don't expect... them to help me undepress myself. It's something that I always try to make very, very clear. Sometimes it's easier to understand. Sometimes it's harder.

• Speaker #1

  How did you reach this understanding of depression? I'm not sure I will keep this part because I will talk about my ex-boyfriend, but he had been depressed when we were together and he was expecting a lot from me. Like maybe we should do more things together, we should have more projects, everything. And a part was true, obviously, but the other part was that he was depressed and I could not save him or dive into the deep with him to understand everything. Have you always had this understanding of what you need personally and how to protect your partner?

• Speaker #0

  Well, I guess it took... It took years to reach like current level of awareness, self-awareness, and also this ability to have like an open communication about it with another person. Well, definitely like psychotherapy allowed me to understand myself better. And so once I understood things myself better, it was also easier for me to tell other people the way I feel. And of course, it's different. between a person and another. But I guess it's important when you have depression or you feel depression, it's important to understand that what causes what, in the sense that depression is rarely caused by a situation. Sometimes it's a wider situation, like, for example, you're working, you've been working for years in a job that you don't care about, or you've been in a relationship for a lot of years, that. the relationship was not working so sometimes it's due to that but it's not like something that happened like yesterday morning and then my mood went down so in in that way i don't i kind of separate like my depression from from the other person's responsibility it's it's very rare that i'm depressed because of something the other person has said or done to me and i want to make it very clear because especially when you're getting to know another person and you don't know them deeply enough. It's very easy to draw conclusions, like you had a very nice weekend together, but then you talk with the other person, the other person feels down or depressed. You immediately think, maybe the weekend didn't go as well as I imagined, right? Or the way that I felt. And it's like, and I also want to say in that moment, no, actually the weekend was amazing. It's just that because of depression, I cannot turn the positivity or the pleasure of that weekend into... like happiness or the next day or it doesn't last after the weekend yeah the sense of guilt is like i i definitely want try to do everything to remove the sense of guilt in the other person so they don't have a responsibility if they don't have the responsibility in it i want to make it very clear i guess it's about acceptance um so i don't know it's about taking responsibility as well for your depression. So I don't know whether, like, for example, your ex-boyfriend was like not fully accepting it or kind of like denying something about depression. And so it's easier to blame other people and things or situations for it.

• Speaker #1

  I think that sometimes it's not maybe this is a long work of, am I correct? Morning? Morning? How do you pronounce it?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, mourning, like bereavement.

• Speaker #1

  Accepting that, well, maybe you won't see the world as other people and you will always have these glasses that turns everything a bit down. And it's easier sometimes to blame on others than just saying, OK, I have to live with this.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, it's difficult. I don't think there's like a simple answer or a simple solution. I think, yeah, it requires a lot of self-understanding and self-awareness and self-acceptance and acceptance of depression for what it is. And I don't know, it connects, I guess, also with my ethical self. For me, it's really important to be an ethical person. And so in a relationship, especially in a relationship, I feel a stronger need to be a very ethical person because there are two people involved, myself and the other person. And I think that I owe the other person explanations and clarifications about things that are happening within me. But maybe if you don't have that, the inner or self... Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  I think it takes time to understand how it works. This is part of the job you're doing with your therapist, to also understand the way depression works. You gave me actually one, two and I think three metaphors about depression. You talked about depression like a wave and there is always this wave, so which goes back and forth and it can be a huge one, like during a storm and sometimes a small one. The second metaphor that you gave me was like holding someone on your shoulders. And sometimes when it's okay, it's like a child. So it works. And sometimes this is just like an overweight person and it's too much for you. And the last one was about, and I don't know the term in English, herpes.

• Speaker #0

  Oh yeah, like a cold sore. Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  So it goes away and then comes back.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. I guess three metaphors, like they capture different aspects of depression. Like the waves, I think it represents the cyclical nature of depression or the sense that depression goes away and may come back or actually comes back. So this is like looking back at my past and seeing that I had like peaks of waves, so high waves. particularly when I move to another city, another region, another country, another continent, which is partially to be expected because, you know, I kind of like press the reset button. I don't have friends anymore in the new context. So additional challenges. And so depression becomes more prominent in those situations. And then through psychotherapy, through just like having more opportunities and more experiences in that place, I can kind of contain. depression so the wave goes down i may get to like a point of stability where things like are very serene and everything works nicely i have to say that like after my dad's passing like a few years ago at the end of 2019 like depression has been like on high tide since then so i haven't seen low tide in a while but i'm i'm kind of confident that it will come and so the sense of yeah comes and goes and it won't necessarily come back but it may it may come back and i think that due to my life decisions it will probably come back and there will be situations that will put me under pressure and give me a lot of like i know loneliness or and satisfaction with what i'm doing So those situations may bring it back. The child... Or like holding a person on my shoulders, yeah, it kind of like feels like the weight that depression has. Like when the tide is low and I can basically do everything I want and I can express myself and pursue my goals and, you know, live according to my values like 100%. So I don't feel any, almost like any weight on my shoulders. So that's why I say it's like carrying like a little kid. around. In other situations, it really feels like a presence on the shoulders that really brings me down. And it's like, brings me down into the mud, into like quicksand in situations where it is harder and harder to come up. Like exactly like when you have like a very heavy person on your shoulders and for some reasons like you fall down, it's extremely hard to get up in that moment. So that's... That's that metaphor. And the other one of the cold sore is it's an interesting metaphor. I think it captures the fact like the latent aspect of depression, as in I don't think that depression will be or will ever be completely defeated or completely absent in my life. And I think I have confidence that it will remain like like latent and not. interfere in any way with with me but i don't feel that i'm that i will be ever completely immune to depression coming back so in a way it's like the cold sore especially because like cold sores they tend to come as a signal of something not working within your life especially in terms of like stress or lack of like a good care of yourself right so and depression also tends to show up and be stronger in those situations, right? So, yeah, it captures the fact that depression can be a sign that something isn't going really well, that, you know, something is a bit misaligned with my values or that I'm just, that maybe like a work environment is toxic. So that's why it's very important to like listen to the presence of depression so that if depression is there, it's probably telling me something. But then, of course, to deal with the situation, then depression is not very helpful. So it's good as a kind of like alarm, like a blinking light, like there's something to look at. And then you, yeah, you search for it and you try and understand. What do you think of this metaphor? It's like... Do they ring any bell within you with your condition?

• Speaker #1

  I don't recognize myself. The only one I have in mind for my disease is like, you know, when children draw things. In French, this is gribouillage, you know, something like that.

• Speaker #0

  Like, yeah, they make like a quick sketch. Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  and you don't understand anything. And it seems really violent, but it's not. They just... don't know how to draw this is how i feel with my disease like she appears when i don't know how to deal with things and she's like i'm gonna explode and yeah so in a way like the the the signal the signaling thing is also part of your condition is it also like that when it comes up or it's more prominent it tells you something yeah obviously obviously and this disease is can be triggered by stress. So when I was really anxious, it didn't happen a lot, but I had a burnout when I was 26. And when I broke up with my ex-boyfriend, it didn't go well at all. It was really violent for the two of us, but also for me. In these two moments, I felt my body going away. I don't know, this is a really strange sensation, but I felt completely disconnected to my body. I couldn't sleep, but I couldn't feel tiredness. This was really strange. I was always in tension. And it was the case when I had my first crisis. And in these two situations, I was lucky enough to have the opportunity to just escape the world. So the first time I went to Cuba, My ear. My sister was getting married, so I spent two or three weeks in Cuba and the burnout went away. And the second time I just went to, I told you, to Switzerland at my father's place. And my only goal was to pet the dog. So during two weeks, I spent hours petting him, walking him. And slowly I went back to reality and I felt connected to my body again. So, yeah. But you mentioned during our coffee that sometimes you don't trust yourself about these signals because you're used to be a bit down. And sometimes it takes a while for you to understand that there is something wrong in your environment and that you should take it into account.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, it's something that has become especially prominent, like strong in the last few years. So I definitely think that when depression appears, so compared to a previous period where things like were, or felt lighter or better, et cetera, when it appears, I think it signals something. But I think that after signaling stuff to me, it actually creates obstacles for me to address those situations. For example, like an effect that depression has on me is like a mood disorder. Well, depression is... is considered like a mood disorder but i really mean that the mood feel disordered as in like the mood is not matching what i'm going through on what i'm experiencing so it could be that i have a very nice or pleasant time by myself with my boyfriend or with anyone and my mood goes down. So in those situations, I feel that I cannot and in a way should not listen to what my mood is telling me because in those moments, the mood is just out of order or out of phase. And so while I find it important in general, obviously, to listen to my mood and to my gut feelings and to my instincts, etc., when I'm depressed, I tend to be a bit more careful. in just listening and reacting to my mood. Because if I just followed what my mood says, I definitely, for example, would not interact with anyone. I would definitely just, you know, withdraw socially and not interact with anyone, which is actually the opposite of what I would need to feel better. So in those situation, I need to kind of like fight against what depression is telling me at that moment, which is, for example, like, don't, don't go out, don't see anyone. I have to react through my rational side mostly by saying no, because it's only through social interactions that I can feel better. Spending nice time with people or simply like going out, have a walk in nature. So to summarize, yeah, depression signals something to me, but then I find that it's really important after that, that I discover what the cause is and kind of like address the situation. by putting depression a bit to the side. Otherwise, it's just like, it tells me to do things or not to do things in a way that doesn't help me to get out of depression. It kind of like sucks me in. And so you start falling down like a spiral. It gets darker and darker. And I definitely don't want, when I see that I'm going down the spiral, the sooner I realize it, the sooner I can get out.

• Speaker #1

  And how do you manage somehow to put your depression about and to deal with real issues and to do something that could give you some comfort? Because as you mentioned, depression is telling you bad things to stay alone, to not interact with people, whereas you would need social interactions. So how did you reach this conclusion that you should listen to this signal?

• Speaker #0

  but not listen to all of the speech let's say well i guess it's like it's through years of of dealing with depression and also like of psychotherapy so there are obviously like different schools of psychotherapy but the one i'm most used to is like the cognitive behavior one and so in that particular school what it tries to help you with is to to counteract like all these negative feelings and vibes and thoughts. using your rational part. So kind of like using, for example, counter examples or counter behaviors that show you that some negative thoughts, for example, are actually not based on facts, or that some behaviors that actually you think are good for you, like, for example, withdrawing from people and spending all your day in the room are actually hindering. your well-being. That was, I think, the first time that I started understanding that, yeah, that depression, like, makes me think and feel things that might not be true to what I'm experiencing, which is a very deep realization. Because, like, I guess we spend a life trying to get in touch with our feelings, right, and our instinct, and to rely on it. And then... I got to also the opposite point where I'm like, when I'm very depressed, to just say to the mood, just shut the fuck up. You're not saying the right things at the moment, or you're not helping me by saying this or by making me feel this way. It's a very draining thing because I have to basically constantly use my brain to counter every single negative feeling or thought that I have in me to say like, no, no, or yes, but actually, like, for example, say yes.

• Speaker #1

  you know they invite you out say yes but the mood keeps on saying no no just stay home just stay home and then it's my rational self that keeps on saying like yes please go you won't regret it it will be helpful do it and how do you make the difference between that the fact that you should go out and it could help you and the fact that maybe you're genuinely tired and you should maybe rest a bit because sometimes it's better not to go out how do you manage to not be um

• Speaker #0

  dictator with yourself yeah yeah because you should also listen yeah yeah um i use the word should a lot actually i i i want to say that should is is a word that i typically don't use with myself because it's very prescriptive and imperative ordering things or making things saying that certain things are right or better and some other things i tend to replace should with like maybe i want or maybe I need something. How do I separate an actual and genuine need to withdraw, for example, from other people? I think it depends on the duration. So if it happens that I want to withdraw and it's for one or two days, but then I feel that that... need kind of disappears and so I'm kind of like okay to go back and you know do my things interact with people then it's absolutely not a problem and I think everyone even people without depression go through days or moments that are like they just want to be by yourself and when it starts lasting a week two weeks etc then I started noticing the negative effects of doing that So I start seeing that by isolating myself more and more, I get a stronger feeling of loneliness. So I start seeing side effects that make me think, OK, so actually that's not the healthiest thing I could do right now. And so at that point, my rational brain says, OK, now we go out. The next time a friend invites you out, you say yes. Even if you don't want to go out, you say yes, because you will appreciate this choice. And in fact, I do. I mean, after I do it, it's like in cognitive behavioral therapy school, like behavioral experiment, right? You kind of like kind of look at the behavior you currently have. And then you kind of like have an alternative behavior that you are not comfortable with or you don't want to approach. And all the fears that prevent you from engaging with that. And then you actually do that behavior, like, for example, going out with friends, having a night out. And then you reassess like whether it was actually good. to do it, right? And whether that behavior change, behavioral change that you kind of forced to yourself was actually helpful and improving your well-being. And so after a while, I started saying that, oh, if after a week or so that I haven't met anyone, I actually go out, even if I'm not at my best, because I'm not at my best in those moments, I go back home and I feel like that was a really nice night, right? It was really nice to... see those friends again. It was nice to listen to their stories and there is no sharp answer to when to listen. It's also hard to know when a certain thought or a certain feeling is depressive or if it comes from depression or if it actually comes from your genuine need in that moment. It's hard but in a way I kind of like look at how much I feel myself in that moment. I see that something is depressive if it doesn't align with my own identity, if it feels less Robbie to do so. Of course, everyone has a different perspective on themselves, so they will have a different understanding of what being themselves is like. And so if you have a bit of that, it's a bit easier to see that a certain thought or a certain feeling is not really you. I have to say, for example, that Robbie without depression, like... So my identity tends to be optimistic, slightly optimistic and hopeful. I think hope is a particularly important thing. So whenever I have like hopeless thoughts or thoughts of like despair, then I kind of really feel like this is not Robbie. This is depression talking because Robbie's not really that kind of person. So I don't know if it works for other people, but for me, that's what tells me like, okay, this is not really me. may be. I can not listen to this thought or feel like I can counteract it. And I don't know if like you ever feel like less yourself or not yourself when, for example, sclerosis is stronger or...

• Speaker #1

  I am really anxious, as I told you. Yeah, this is another part of me. And in this case, this is a part of my identity. This is how I see the world.

• Speaker #0

  So you don't see a point where like a certain level of anxiety, for example, is... It's not you anymore.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. For me, there are two levels of anxiety. There is the anxiety of everyday life. So everyday life anxiety. So it's okay. Like I can be anxious, I don't know, for a first date. And like, how am I going to deal with it? And it's okay. And then there is another anxiety when I moved to Italy. Actually, in the beginning, I was not able to interact people because I was... a bit traumatized by some events i had social anxiety and i wanted to be alone all the time and actually it was not me because i'm really i really like people takes me a while to interact and to trust people but i really feel the need to interact with them so actually i agree with you so you felt at a certain moment you felt like okay this is not me yeah well i i tried to make the balance between like the like the small anxiety and it's okay to respect her and then when just like for you actually when my anxiety is like eating me and preventing me from doing things that i really like in life then i have to really be strong and to say okay julietta let's meet these friends and it's gonna be okay so yeah i agree with you what was really interesting in everything you said is that you really know yourself so you have a really strong understanding of who robbie is You mentioned the fact that you were optimistic, hopeful and everything. And this is really inspiring because I think this is part of, I wouldn't say solution, because I'm not sure this is a proper word, but part of a process to really know yourself, to respect your boundaries. How did you reach this understanding of your needs and of your personality?

• Speaker #0

  Well, the short and quick answer would be psychotherapy, I think. That's a lot of like, it definitely like facilitated a lot of self-discovery. What especially it helped with was in self-communication. So in allowing myself to listen to myself, because I feel that I've always been pretty communicative. Like, as in like, I feel that like my brain, my body, like always told me a lot of things. It was just about. listening to them, as in like sitting and actually like listening to everything they have to say. And it was also like, I guess, related to a desire for authenticity, as in like, there is obviously like a perfect or ideal self that is also full of social pressures and social expectations and all of that. It was about like putting that to the side and just saying, okay, that's that, but that is also what I am. So basically accepting all the positives and the negatives that come within. And so that, I guess, was an important step in just listening to everything. You know, not just like saying, OK, these are only my positive things and not accepting the other one. It's like, OK, this is all part of this. Maybe like also my international experiences, they really helped me in seeing things in a relative perspective, especially like changing culture. It immediately led me understood that certain things are cultural impositions or cultural expectations on you. What is right, what is expected of you, what is best for you to be or to have, etc. And changing context actually made me see that they're very contextual. Like in Italy, there are certain things, in the Netherlands, other things, in Australia, there are other things. The more countries I change, the more this thing will enlarge. And so in a way, kind of say like nothing is right or wrong or best or worse it's just what it is um so basically like removing judgment from my desires my needs and my characteristics because they might be not appreciated in italian culture but it might be appreciated in the netherlands for example in the netherlands like assertiveness is really important to the point of like almost dominance over over the other person while in in And, you know, their cultures could be, for example, like Asian cultures is kind of the opposite. So it's at a certain point understanding that neither is bad or wrong. It's just the way I am. Take it or leave it. And a lot of questioning, questioning myself. So kind of like removing some assumptions or stopping making assumption about myself. As in like, I've always been this way. And so I am this. Like maybe I've always been this way because I've been raised. in this way because my school or my education but what am i like how do i see myself within like do i click with this not really i guess also like in a way the the questioning about my my sexuality in general is was a good primer for like just questioning things more in general you know to kind of like say or understand that there are a lot of assumptions that we make uh like heterotorm heteronormativity is like the name we give to this huge amount of dogmatic expectations and and then I started questioning but do I really want this do I really want that what happens if I don't want this what happened if I don't like this and I guess that questioning attitude was like helpful to just make me questioning in relation to other things and in the same way that I accepted that I like guys and I don't like girls and that I won't have a traditional family etc and other things in the same way i was like questioning my own identity and understanding that i'm not this and i'm not that

• Speaker #1

  the culture would love me to be this but i'm this other way and that's what it is i don't know it doesn't answer the question but no it does in my opinion keeping an open mind and experiencing in a way i think especially removing because we we interiorize like we internalize a lot of judgment

• Speaker #0

  like social judgment and then the moment we remove that it actually it's actually much easier to see oneself full of course of discrepancies, contradictions, etc. But also full of faults and negative things, etc. But you start seeing a unity, a sense of like, okay, this is me. Like, this is it. Take it or leave it. This is what I am. And so the difficulty next, obviously, is to, okay, this is what I am. What do I do with it? It's lovely. Okay, now I know a lot about myself, but then life. happens and you're like okay how do i navigate through life as myself right that's where like that's where i am and that's i guess where the struggle the struggle is but yeah depression definitely helped me look inward and and consolidate what what i am especially like big depressive episodes they have a strong destructive power within me right they they they destroy a lot of like of my interests, a lot of my desires and needs. And many times they're like a reset button and they force me to start rebuilding my life, myself again. And I guess this is obviously a very exhausting kind of experience, but it allows you to constantly re-evaluate yourself and to reconfirm if it's the case, like... your fundamental aspects, your values, which is, I can think it as like the most positive aspect of depression. The fact that it makes me continuously reassess myself. It's destructive, but then I can react in a constructive way and consolidate even more. If after like three, four, five depressive episodes, I see that certain things like, for example, kindness or sweetness are always there. And they're always the first brick that I place when rebuilding myself. Then I'm like, that's it. That's a core thing. They become more and more sturdy. And the next time depression comes, those things are less and less damaged because they are so central and so solidified.

• Speaker #1

  Wow, this is beautiful.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, thank you.

• Speaker #1

  I can feel a lot of self-respect. And this is not easy to have some self-esteem and to respect our own boundaries and to validate our qualities, everything. So this is beautiful.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you. Yeah, it's hard work, to be honest.

• Speaker #1

  It's hard work, but it's worth it.

• Speaker #0

  I think it is.

• Speaker #1

  Really? Yeah, I think so.

• Speaker #0

  I mean, depression like can send you and definitely send me like into very dark areas where you like. you question your worth to extreme levels, right? Bringing you to levels of complete unworthiness in which you feel completely unworthy. And I guess the only way to counteract that is by actually saying to yourself, no, like I have these values, I have these things and they're worthy, like they're very worthy. Like even if in this period, my life is shit, like Thank you. I am not shit. I don't identify with what is happening at the moment or what I'm feeling because there is a core that is strong and beautiful and bright and it has to continue moving on.

• Speaker #1

  I would like to talk about, more specifically about therapy. To what extent being on therapy helps you to navigate through the world but also to... put concepts on depression to understand it why would you advise to people to maybe see a therapist while being on depression well first of all i want to say that i have an extremely high opinion of psychotherapy and a strong like

• Speaker #0

  super strong sense of gratitude to it i am extremely grateful to the the psychotherapist that i worked with for the longest times it was essential essential especially especially like I've had a period where I had to transition from antidepressant to antidepressant and so in that period definitely my trust for antidepressants and medications like was reduced or decreased but it's exactly in that in that long period that i i saw that psychotherapy was the thing holding me up so i saw like how effective it was at keeping me like alive and serene or capable of engaging with like life and all of that. That said, the way that it helped me, well, it definitely like helped me understood depression in general, what it is and kind of like to accept its presence, particularly to understand what depression looks like for me or in me. There are obviously like there is like the DSM manual that lists like the characteristics of depression and one can read that and. recognize themselves right in the so gsm is the reference book about mental yeah all the mental conditions and illnesses and it's kind of like there everything is coded it's codified there are a list of symptoms this is supposed to help uh psychiatrists and psychotherapists to better assess what kind of disorder or situation the person is. is experiencing. So there's a bit of like understanding, of course, the general characteristics of depression, but also understanding what depression feels to me, as in like physiologically, for example, how do I feel it in my body? What emotions does it give me? For example, for me, like a lot of people think that depression is about sadness. To me, it's mostly about apathy, for example, or it has a touch of disgust, for example, disgust for life. So it was really important for me to say, Like, OK, depression has these nuances within me or the thoughts, the negative thoughts that it brings me are these ones. And so I had my own like, you know, like convictions and beliefs about myself that are very specific to me. So that was really important and also made me like very aware of like depression or periods of depression. It also made me very aware of the effect. of behaviors or ways of thinking on on depression and so understanding for example what activities what experiences are really helpful to me when i'm depressed and they're all very personal because like certainly i imagine for example having a walk in nature might be helpful for for many people with me it resonates particularly maybe because i live a very like indoor kind of life and so that kind of connection with nature like was really important or spending time with with more time more time with people i think there was a core thing i realized that social well-being was a huge chunk of well-being for me and so attending to that kind of needs that was really important so and then just building up a kind of like i i kind of envision it as a suitcase full of a lot of like tools and techniques and methods that I can use whenever I feel depressed. And it's a lot of like different things you can do from like reformulating or reframing certain thoughts to behavioral experiments that we discussed before, to mindfulness. So a lot of things that can help me, not all of them work, not all of them worked when I first tried them, but it gives me a kind of like a catalogue or a repertoire of a lot of things that I can do. whenever I feel that the pressure is strong to help myself and to support myself. And now I feel that I have this like very big and cool suitcase full of all these things.

• Speaker #1

  I imagine you're walking with your amazing suitcase. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  it's a super cool suitcase with like glitters on it, etc. And but it really gives me like so many ways to help myself that I don't like whenever I feel depressed, I don't feel powerless anymore.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, actually, this is what I wanted to mention. So I did behavioral therapy. Yeah. Okay, because I had panic attacks, especially in trains and buses. And in the beginning, I felt really powerless because I was like, okay, it happens. I don't know how to predict them. I'm gonna get crazy in the train. I was really... afraid of myself being crazy in this train so I decided to not take the train anymore and then it happened in restaurants and I was like no Julieta you need to go to the restaurant with your friends so I started the therapy and the therapist explained to me how a panic attack works and actually in the beginning I assumed it was completely unpredictable and actually not it's always the same pattern. Once you understand it, you're like okay it is happening now so i have to protect myself in my case it's like breathing telling myself you are having a panic attack this is not reality people are not gonna i don't know explode in the in the train it's okay it's just you being a bit triggered about uh the events and now i can take the train so it didn't make the anxiety disappear in the train when this is super crowded I don't feel okay. But at least now I know what is going to happen. I know how to manage these symptoms. And well, we live okay together. It's manageable, I would say. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  you don't feel powerless anymore in that situation.

• Speaker #1

  At least, yes. And I can explain also to my friends, like, okay, it works like this.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, it gives you a sense of like control over what is happening. And also, I guess, a sense of agency. As in like, it's... it's not a situation where you cannot do anything you're like yeah actually i have a metaphor for you so do you have anxiety i forgot to ask you um not much but sometimes anxiety and depression they they get along well together they hold hands and do stuff yeah actually one

• Speaker #1

  temptation when you have anxiety or maybe depression is to fight it and to be really mean to yourself like Well, you're really a shitty person because you're afraid of crowded trains. And one day my father told me, so he's a psychiatrist and he told me, Juliet, actually, panic attacks are just about how do you take this wave. If you want to escape the wave, you're going to lose a lot of energy. But if you learn how to surf on the wave, then it can be okay. So the wave is still here. yeah the wave does not disappear but it will always be there but at least now you you can have fun on the wave and it's really about that feeling empowered through therapy yes the sense of empowerment is like yeah it's extremely strong and you mentioned something that like the kind of like for example there

• Speaker #0

  is a thing called like secondary depression which is the depression that you have because you're depressed it's the it's related to the judgments or or anger or disappointment or dissatisfaction with myself because you are depressed. And that like obviously fuels the primary depression, because if you are depressed and then you also blame yourself or attack yourself because you're depressed, it's like it's not going to help you very much. So it's about also accepting that your worth is. separated by what is happening in that moment. You're not a bad person, a lesser person or insignificant person because of what is happening. And that already removes like the secondary kind of like anxiety or depression so that you can actually have a bit more control on the primary.

• Speaker #1

  Now it seems that you respect yourself, but do you manage to have empathy for yourself?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I do. I do. Empathy and sympathy, obviously, which is very different from self-pity, which is like a very, very different thing. It was really important, like it was definitely easier for me to be kind and compassionate to other people. So it was when my psychologist, psychotherapist started saying, like, why are you that way with other people and you aren't it? You aren't it like with yourself. It's like, why don't you get the same treatment? It's like... why so then i started thinking because she was like okay if robbie was in front of you right now would what would you tell him and i was like i was very kind you know i just said like very nice kind things and supportive things and she's like why don't you say it to yourself Like, I don't know. I don't know. So yeah, so redirecting kindness and compassion. to one's self is really important like not to the point of self-pity when you're like just being a victim and kind of like uh you know labeling every situation as in like you know everything is due to the outside and i'm just a victim of everything because that's not gonna help it disempowers you actually because if you don't feel in control of the causes then you're like it's even worse so i got some advice like

• Speaker #1

  Maybe I read it in some girls' magazines, but it works. Actually, it's talk to yourself as you would talk to a friend. Like, it's okay. It's okay to be a bit anxious. It's okay to feel down. And we're going to face it together. And yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, it's easier said than done. Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  sure.

• Speaker #0

  Obviously. It was particularly interesting because when I was in Melbourne at the university, we did the mental health first aid. course it was specific for like staff right and I was I was obviously very eager to do this this course it was like a kind of like four days of training and it was really interesting to just like they were of course teaching you a lot of ways to handle and deal with situation in that context was basically like okay these are things that could happen to your students we're telling you we're teaching you a few ways healthy and you know evidence-based effective ways for you to react to those situations. But then it's really interesting because then when I was experiencing those things, I was like, I wasn't using the same things with me. I was like, but then when a student came by with like, for example, their own anxiety problems, some like post-traumatic stress disorder things, etc. Like I was really, I think I was really like being very supportive and very understanding. And then with myself, it wasn't the same. And I was like, why? I guess we have a very critical attitude to ourselves that takes the lead.

• Speaker #1

  Do you talk sometimes to yourself?

• Speaker #0

  Oh, yeah, I do.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And actually, now there is a small voice which is getting louder and louder, which is like, hold on, Julieta, we're going to do this together. Now you need maybe some silence, but it's going to be OK. You're going to go back to your place and it's going to be OK. Just breathe. and it's not like you're not good enough. And this voice has been really strong for me. And now there is a cute one, a new character in my life.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, obviously.

• Speaker #1

  The supportive Julieta. And this is a really nice character.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, it's important to have that. Yeah, I also have that. Yeah, and in moments where I'm really struggling, it's important to have like a voice within me to say, you know, things will get better. Like we'll deal with this together. together it's like me and my other selves within me obviously yeah that voice is yeah it's really important so yeah it connects to the ability that you have to do it with other people so at a certain point you kind of it's important that you internalize that voice and say well can that voice talk to me as well can my voice talk to me as well and yeah that is this is very different that's very self-acceptance self-kindness it was really really

• Speaker #1

  major shift a recent shift yeah takes ages to develop yeah of course and a good therapist and a lot of money but it works well i have one last topic it's about the relation to other people so as you mentioned and as we noticed during this conversation you're getting more and more respectful towards yourself. I have a feeling that maybe it's helped you to develop empathy towards the others as well. Because do you share this feeling? But when you struggle a lot with yourself, then you are really kind to others and more willing to support and to understand why something can be super hard for someone else. Do you have the same feeling?

• Speaker #0

  Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I have a strong appreciation, definitely. for like human complexity and especially for like individual differences the fact that we all had a very very different life and the fact that we don't know what's been in another person's life until the moment you interact with them makes me very aware that i know very little about that person and i have i'm in no position to judge another person or to feel superior in any way or inferior for that matter, and a strong understanding that it's really important to comprehend the other person before actually doing or saying anything to that person. So just basically stopping for a moment and just really listening to what the other person is trying to communicate. And then only then, like, maybe building, you know, an idea of what that person is like, what they might want, what they might like or not like. Yeah, definitely, definitely different sensitivity. And the more I expose myself to different people from a variety of life paths, and the more I see that you have to listen more and to judge less and to just really... And if a person does something to you that has a negative impact on you, it's also important to, like, before jumping to conclusions, to just consider that if it's just the first time, it might be that the person had a very difficult day. or had a very difficult experience like it's of life and so you know using the benefit of doubt you don't know you don't know and until you know like you cannot make you cannot know what's right what's wrong why things happened no assumptions you cannot make any any of that until you know a person and i see that behind the person there could be a lot of things and mental health they my struggle with mental health and my struggle with sexuality and a lot of other things right from their faith to their political views to their cultural heritage like there are a lot of things that a person bring with themselves and you don't know what weight those things have within them yeah it made me very very less judgmental about people and way more curious and interested because every person is a little world And until I know it, I cannot really say anything, especially bad about that person. Yeah, when you go through those things, like you have a better understanding, the more experiences you live with and the more you can understand the effect of similar experiences in other people's lives. I hope I get I will get to a point where even without getting through all possible experiences, I still have an initial understanding or a basic understanding of what a. person might be experiencing. For example, when I lost my dad, it was my first loss. And I have to say, I wouldn't understand another person's loss. I wouldn't be able to understand another person's loss until I experienced it myself. But I hope that the more I accumulate these experiences, the more other types of experiences also become somehow available to me, or I can at least empathize with what they might experience without presumption, but with a little bit of like a minimum of understanding and appreciation also for what they're going through like you might have for example like a stronger sensitivity for like other like for mental health uh different mental health conditions and even without knowing all the single details or without being able to name all the thousand you know different conditions but at least a bit of like i think i think you develop especially the attitude even without having the knowledge You develop an attitude of like listening and trying to understand what the other person is going through. And so that that is very helpful.

• Speaker #1

  In any case, I think that listening is the key.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Yeah. Like you don't know. You don't know. Like even even when I interact with another person and they they tell me, for example, they are going through depression. I never say, OK, I know this because I don't know this. I know what depression in general looks like, I know what it feels for me, but I still need to hear what it feels for that person and what they want and what they need. It would be completely different. For example, I'm always very eager for advice and support, but I also have a lot of friends at the moment I give unsolicited advice, they're like, they get super angry. So it's like, you don't know, everyone is different. And, um... Just because you have a similar or like another person, for example, may lose a parent and they talk to me, I cannot make any assumptions about what they're going through because it's their unique experience.

• Speaker #1

  I have one last question. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  go for it.

• Speaker #1

  So how to behave safely with you? What are your recommendations to be supportive and to respect your own space?

• Speaker #0

  to give you some comfort without trying to save you because this is not the purpose but yeah um well we definitely talked about open communication and listening i think that's the most important thing so not making assumptions again even if you know a lot about depression even if you have lived experience of depression you still don't know what depression is for me and so about just having an open communication which goes both sides because I put the effort of sharing things that are private and from the other side I expect you to have care of what I'm sharing with you with the delicate things that I'm sharing with you so that is extremely important and basically asking me what kind of needs or like also very simple accommodations or ways of changing like things to make me feel more comfortable I experienced like when I was in in Melbourne in my university. an environment where I felt extremely safe. There was definitely a strong understanding of diversity and mental health in particular and different genders, sexualities and sexes, but also like an interest in knowing what is important to me and a flexibility to change things in a way that if a particular change does not bother you, but it makes a lot of... sense or a lot brings a lot of positivity to me it's like that kind of like openness to apply those changes i had a period where for example my depression was particularly strong and it was strongly related to my phd and so i asked the people i was working with if i could not get research research tasks because i felt that i didn't want to deal with research researching things for a little while and they helped me with that you like for example like splitting a shift instead of having like eight hours a day because i was struggling with like concentration and just i just had less cognitive power and i asked if i could have like for example two afternoons or four hours and they were like they're available to do that so it's it's it's about listening and and asking in a curious way in a not nosy way but an interested and curious and open way again the effort is both ways I put the effort I like if I can if I feel comfortable enough like I definitely bring up the topic of depression of what I'm going through and I definitely don't answer that I'm all right when they ask me how am I doing if I'm not all right I'd rather say something like something else but kind of like I put my effort in in expressing in expressing things and i just ask for like a that conversation to continue i put the first word but i kind of like what about you what makes you feel like safe and comfortable in a social context for example of

• Speaker #1

  course every context is different and well i'm really sincere i'm not able to lie and i always open my heart to people so when i'm Being sincere with someone, I expect the same from people. It doesn't mean commitment. Like maybe we're not going to be friends forever of our relationship. It doesn't mean that we're going to be in a long-term relationship. It just means being sincere now and to talk with an open heart. For me, this is really important.

• Speaker #0

  And as we talked about, it requires a bit of time. So if a person has no time to talk about it,

• Speaker #1

  For me, it doesn't require time, it requires trust. Well, I won't talk to anyone like, oh, do you know about this very specific topic? But if I trust the other and if we are having a deep conversation, then I can switch to more personal topics. If the person is receptive to this and enjoying the conversation, I expect, well... the same from this person this is the first point listening uh if someone talks too much and he's like yeah i know what you're saying and i'm like no just you don't know yeah you don't know so that's it uh being empathetic and well i try to think yeah that's the main thing yeah and i guess like when you encounter something that you're not familiar with

• Speaker #0

  Like, for example, as I told you, like when we met at a cafe, like I didn't have prior knowledge about multiple sclerosis. And because of that, I didn't invent a knowledge about it or I didn't make assumptions about it because I don't know. I don't know. So either I ask questions and I try to understand better or you share something with me. And the moment I go home, I do my homework. and search a little bit so I can better understand what you talked to me about, right? I think that's also, you also do a bit of like, of your own thing, to understand what the other person is talking about.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, and also understand the importance of the conversation. I have an episode in mind. One day I was doing a hike and there was a guy talking to me and he was into me. I understood it quickly and we talked about my multiple sclerosis and I was being sincere. Not because I was into him, because I assumed that the interaction was sincere. at some points he used my multiple sclerosis to remorquiar me how do you say to pick you up to do yeah flirt with you to flirt with me i have some strange movements with my hands i touch a lot my face and i have some weird movements and he was like is it due to your multiple sclerosis because this is really sensual and i was like fuck off even if it was the case what are you fucking doing i'm talking about something really tough a really difficult moment of my life and you're trying to use this to make me understand that i'm essential what's the point i think that yeah the main point is that when you're being sincere don't use this to

• Speaker #0

  reach another goal it's just about trust in this moment yeah like no second purposes or Bye. No, absolutely. And there is definitely space for irony and humor.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, sure.

• Speaker #0

  And I think those are incredible.

• Speaker #1

  When it's well done.

• Speaker #0

  But when the space is already safe to do so.

• Speaker #1

  And when there is consent. I don't know how it works for you, but someone like, oh, Julieta, maybe in 10 years, you won't be able to move your arms. Well, it depends on... how we know each other's.

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. If it's in a context where, again, you feel safe and the other person knows you extremely well, that again, it, you feel safe. And so that is a joke. It is a joke. And I, I do plenty of these jokes with like, with Wukash, but also with my, with my previous partners, like, and I find it like irony, especially like, especially self irony are, are extremely important also to deal. with this and to kind of like remove a bit of the drama or of the heaviness of all of that. For example, I remember like making fun of the fact that when I had the first depression, I lost a lot of weight. A friend was commenting that after all, depression was pretty useful. And I was like, yeah, now I'm fucking sexy. But you see, so the context made it a joke. Obviously, if a random person would tell me or told me. Oh, depression was useful because it made you lose weight. I'd be like, fuck off. I was like, how dare you? Like, who are you? So there's context and context. And yeah, absolutely. So humor is fine. But in that case, it was very out of place and very inappropriate. The trust was in the process of being built, was not already there.

• Speaker #1

  An advice, if someone wants to do some humorism about a disease or anything, is to let the... person concerns starts as an example i may have cognitive issues due to my multiple sclerosis i have attention issues but we don't know if it's connected to my disease or not and one day i booked a train ticket but it was for the wrong day i was supposed to go at my friend's place and she was like are you arriving julietta and i was like no this is tomorrow and i sent another message and I was like, this is due to my multiple sclerosis. This is not my fault. And we had fun about this. But if she had started, maybe I wouldn't have liked it.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, it's a good approach to like wait for like the other person to make jokes about their condition or disorder or whatever. And then adapt yourself to like what's appropriate, what's inappropriate, what they're okay joking about and not. Like obviously there are parts of my depression I'm very happy to joke about. But there are also parts of my depression that I don't want to joke about because they're very, very sensitive. Like there are points about, for example, relation to suicidality. Like there's a point where I don't feel like joking about. Right. So check first what the other person is comfortable joking about. And then you can definitely do like, yeah, like have a lot of fun together. And absolutely.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, the door is not closed to have fun and to make fun out of this condition.

• Speaker #0

  No, no. And like, you know, like humor is really important. Like this is this is something that we we have with us all the time. And so if we can make it lighter in any way, absolutely. But there's place and place, time and time to do things and not do things.

• Speaker #1

  Okay, so we have two minutes left. Do you have anything to add in two minutes?

• Speaker #0

  no absolutely not i'm very happy that we had this conversation it was really cool i had The fun and interest, I was really engaged in this conversation. And it's just very nice to talk about these things very openly. And yeah, in a space that feels safe and trustful and non-judgmental. So thank you very much for inviting me to this.

• Speaker #1

  You're welcome. And I think that we can conclude this episode by saying that Actually, this is really a beautiful step to take to be more open to other people and to listen. This is what we did together. You listen to me, I listen to you. And this is what I'm trying to do with this podcast. And during the week, as I told you, I had like six hours, six different conversations with people I didn't know and who told me their story. Just the way you did it, it was a beautiful experience. And I would suggest to people, to be open and to try to listen to people because you always have things to learn.

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely, absolutely. Every person is really like an entire planet, an entire world. And it's like you can learn so much just by listening to other people and their experiences, positive or negative.

• Speaker #1

  So you can learn yourself, but you can also help people sometimes by just being a good listener. And to be supportive, even with someone you don't really know.

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely, absolutely. And it's like you bring like these topics that are like still covered by a lot of stigma up to the surface and you normalize them and make the conversation more transparent about it. Like without using, you know, vague words like fragility, mental fragility or like, but actually talking like calling things for what they are and talking about it. Absolutely.

• Speaker #1

  So 20 seconds left. Just thank you. It was really nice having you with me.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you. It was lovely.

• Speaker #1

  A huge thank you to Robby, who trusted me to record this episode and showed great clarity in describing his symptoms. What struck me most during our conversation was the importance Robby places on his sense of identity. Robby defines himself as a cheerful and positive person. While depression may alter the way he sees the world, It does not change who it truly is. Illness often raises the question of identity. To what extent does it change me when it limits the things I am able to do? I find Roby's perspective very rich and thought-provoking, offering some genuinely interesting food for thought. A few words about L'Anomalie. L'Anomalie is a podcast I host in French on the topic of illness and disability. It is a volunteer project. If you'd like to support me and if you'd love to hear more episodes in English, you can leave me a comment or like on your favorite listening platform. Feel free to reach out to me on Instagram via the account l'anomalie.lepodcast. All the details are in the episode description. See you soon for the next episode in French and take care of yourselves.