The Next Frontier in Healing: Ibogaine Therapy for TBI, PTSD, Depression and Addiction | Jonathan Dickinson | Men Talking Mindfulness: Mental, Physical, and Emotional Fitness to Elevate Performance and Resilience for Leaders and Teams Under Pressure!

Description

Step into the next frontier in healing as we unravel the transformative world of ibogaine therapy in this groundbreaking conversation with Jonathan Dickinson of AMBIO Life Sciences.

Ibogaine therapy isn’t just another trend—it’s a revolution for people who are ready to conquer TBI, PTSD, depression, anxiety and addiction. From the battlefield to the homefront, veterans and special operators are discovering how ibogaine therapy is changing everything they thought they knew about recovery, healing, and hope.

With Stanford University’s groundbreaking research at the center of this episode, and the buzz from Netflix’s new documentary "In Waves and War," the world is finally waking up to how powerful ibogaine therapy can be. This documentary lays bare the real struggles and triumphs of veterans making the courageous choice to reclaim their lives—shining a spotlight on stories that echo everything Jonathan and AMBIO are living day after day.

Get ready to challenge what you think about addiction and trauma as Jonathan shares with Men Talking Mindfulness the science, the stories, and the remarkable outcomes that make ibogaine therapy a true game changer.

Whether you’re struggling with the invisible wounds of traumatic brain injury, haunted by memories, or fighting to break free from depression or addiction, ibogaine therapy might just be the lifeline you’ve been searching for.

Hear how brave veterans and special operators stepped up as pioneers, partnering with Stanford to unveil the brain-healing, life-rebuilding power of ibogaine therapy.

We dive deep into integration, mental wellness, and why men are flocking to ancient solutions like ibogaine therapy. This isn’t about magic bullets or shortcuts—it’s about stepping you’re of isolation, getting help, owning your journey, and finally healing. Welcome to a new era of recovery, one where courage and connection drive true healing.

More about Ambio Life Sciences and your Work with Ibogaine here:
https://www.ambio.life/

Feeling stuck? If you need help getting out of your rut, Will can help - head to willnotfear.com to learn more about his coaching to get you off the hamster wheel.

More from MTM at: https://mentalkingmindfulness.com/

Timestamps:

00:00 – Introduction

03:52 – Ibogaine’s Effects on PTSD and the Brain

08:59 – What Makes Ibogaine Healing

13:08 – Ibogaine’s Cultural Roots and Modern Use

18:24 – Ibogaine and the Ancestral Mind

24:50 – Compassion, Pain, and Ibogaine Recovery

30:15 – How the Brain Heals in Recovery

33:11 – Misconceptions About Ibogaine Therapy

38:05 – Global Legal Status of Ibogaine

44:41 – Inside the Ibogaine Treatment Journey

52:24 – Navigating Post-Psychedelic “Gray Days”

57:34 – Integration After Psilocybin

01:02:36 – High-Dose Ibogaine: Intensity & Control

01:04:17 – Staying Aware Through Ibogaine’s Intensity

01:09:28 – The Arc of Psychedelic Transformation

01:14:06 – Healing and Mindfulness in Chaos

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Transcription

Speaker #0
The most interesting thing that was happening at the clinics, and we learned a lot about it, and we still at Ambio have a site that's dedicated for drug detox and can help people come off of fentanyl and all kinds of polysubstance disorders and stuff. It does it like nothing else. One gentleman needed a leg brace. He suffered gunshot wounds to the hip. and still had peripheral nerve damage that hadn't fully healed. So he had mobility issues and sensitivity issues and walked out without his knee brace and then started to get sensitivity back in his foot. But you can see prior to the treatment that there's areas of the brain where there was not blood flow and electrical activity happening. And after the treatment, there's a bunch of stories. about guys going and asking the radiologists just for information, trying to understand what it was that happened to them. And they were saying that those areas were functioning like normal again.
Speaker #1
Raw, uncut, and unapologetic. Welcome to Men Talking Mindfulness.
Speaker #2
What if I told you there's a naturally occurring organic substance out there that claims to cure addiction, wipe out depression, and ease symptoms of TBI and PTSD, all in just one dose? You're probably thinking I'm full of it and starting to reach for that skip button, but hang on a second because this thing actually exists. It's called ibergain. This isn't just your average treatment. It's a plant medicine getting some serious buzz for resetting the brain's relationship with addiction, depression, and trauma. To break it all down with us today, we brought in one of the top experts in the field, Jonathan Dickinson. He and his team over at Ambio life sciences. have worked with hundreds of people from special operator veterans to pro athletes and high performers who have tried everything else to heal with no luck. Their clients have included some high-profile names like former governor, Texas governor Rick Perry. Rumor has it that in just one session, it gave him the brain of a 40-year-old. You might have heard of this guy, Brett Favre or Keith Jardin and Rob O'Neill, just to name a few. So today we're going to dive into the origins of Ibogaine, how it works. And also take a look at a 2024 seminal study with Stanford University and 30 special operator veterans suffering from TBI, many of whom who've had major depression, anxiety disorders, and PTSD, and their mind-blowing results because of Ibogaine therapy. So let's get into it. Jonathan, welcome to Man Talking Mindfulness. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker #0
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker #2
Yeah, and John, always good to see you.
Speaker #1
uh hey you want to learn more about what we're doing out there mentalkingmindfulness.com i'm just flowing over here guys oh well i'm just gonna do our or will have to do that intro again my my computer completely went and shit the bed and will did this whole intro and and reset so uh well
Speaker #2
done again i did it better this time yeah i know it's like i look like a little practice to calm the nerves you know what i'm saying yeah but uh you know calm all of our nerves we're gonna do our little one breath grounding practice. So let's. Exhale out through the mouth. Get really empty. Maybe close the eyes and feel your body as you exhale. Take a big giant inhale into your belly, filling all the way to the top, even into your head. Let's hold that breath for five seconds, four, go easy, three, two, one, and exhale all the way out. Awesome. And hey, everyone that's listening, thank you for being here, for tuning in, sharing this podcast, subscribe, you know, post it on your little snapshot on your Instagram or text a friend. And all right, let's jump in. Jonathan, again, thanks for being here. And I thought actually it'd be good just to show people kind of what the value of this incredible. uh, iBrigaine is, we'll talk about the substance itself and how it all works and stuff. But what, let's talk about that Stanford university study in 2024 that I mentioned in intro. And, um, you know, I just run through some of the results here and we can talk about like, what is going on here? You know, after, uh, one month after treatment, right, these 30 different operators, this is what they've experienced. So they have an average disability score dropped from 30.2, which is actually from mild to moderate disability to two, 5.1, which indicates no disability. How about this one? PTSD symptoms decreased an average of 88%, depression by 87%, anxiety by 81% with improvements and persisting at least one month after treatment. And there's also additional benefits as well, cognitive testing, you know, including better concentration of memory, you know, so, and also so the treatment was found to be safe with no serious adverse effects. or cardiac issues, only mild symptoms like headache and nausea were reported. So, uh, so Jonathan, please, like, thanks for coming on the show and like, what's going on here. I thought we'd just kind of dive right in to the deep end and, and, uh, see how this stuff is working for people.
Speaker #0
Yeah, sure. So I think it's worth mentioning from the beginning that while guys are experiencing these kind of major transformations and improvements and all these symptoms that they're reporting, while they're going through the experience, this is a powerful psychedelic. Like this is a journey that guys are going on. You know what I mean? Like when people are coming down to Ambio and we're not talking about drug detox, like just, you know, coming in from... After combat or athletes or guys who are, you know, don't need any help coming off of medications on site or anything like that. They're still staying with us for five days and it's on the second night that they're taking Ibogaine and they're going through a deep internal journey and life review and people can see all kinds of things. Sometimes, sometimes they don't, but there's a kind of an intense psychedelic process that accompanies this. And so it's worth mentioning, you know, because sometimes, you know, if you're just looking for the outcomes at the end of the day, you got to know that these guys earned it. I mean, they had to they had to go through that process. And the other thing I think that's really important to mention is that we have a lot more understanding kind of emerging about what's actually going on for veterans. And for a long time, I think there was this high sort of prevalence of, you know, discussion about PTSD and like, how are we going to treat PTSD, PTSD? And it's only much more recently that there's been the ability to even be able to assess and start to understand what's actually going on physiologically in the brain. Right. And so especially with. With the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts, they talk about this signature wound of this global war on terror being mild traumatic brain injury, which can come from being close to explosions. But it can also just come from and sometimes even more so just from being around the release of high caliber weapon fire over and over and over like thousands and thousands of rounds, you know.
Speaker #2
Wow. Yeah.
Speaker #0
This is cellular damage. that happens anytime the head is getting accelerated. And, you know, so you got your skull, it's more dense material and the brain tissue is softer material. So when things start accelerating, they're accelerating at different speeds. And so that can create pressure between the soft tissue in the middle and the sort of edge of the skull. And that over time can lead to this buildup, this accumulation of cellular damage. And what that looks like is it just becomes harder for cells to function. And so they stop being able to receive the same amount of blood flow and oxygen. And so really basic resources that cells need to just function properly. So a lot of these guys, when they were going through the Stanford study, they were going and getting MRIs done before and after. But you can see prior to the treatment that there's areas of the brain. where there was not blood flow and electrical activity happening, or at least dramatically reduced, right? The cells were not necessarily dead, but they were not functioning as normal. And after the treatment, there's a bunch of stories about guys going and asking the radiologists just for information, try to understand what it was that happened to them. And they were saying that those areas were functioning like normal again. And so there's something going on on a cellular level with this particular kind of damage. And it just so happens that the symptoms of traumatic brain injury are very similar, a lot of them, to post-traumatic stress disorder and that kind of group of symptoms that we talk about. I mean, there's some other ones that kind of accompany it, like headaches and light sensitivity and things like that, that are more on the kind of neurological side. But a lot of these things are very similar to what we attribute to PTSD. And so that's why, you know, we're seeing very similar things in athletes, actually. Sometimes I don't think we necessarily know what it's like for guys who are retiring from long athletic careers, especially in sports where they also are prone to having that kind of head acceleration or kind of head trauma or repeated concussions like football and hockey and that kind of stuff. but actually guys are experiencing sometimes. Some very similar symptoms to guys that are coming out of combat. And so, you know, seeing very similar kinds of benefits. So what we were able to capture in that paper, what Stanford was able to capture, and we were honored to be a part of it, was essentially at first it was just the symptoms, just like the self-report, like how are guys feeling better afterwards. And there's still a bunch of work to do on the actual imaging to show the kind of cellular results that are underlying that. But that's what we're going to be. Seeing when that stuff starts to come out.
Speaker #2
Wow. Just incredible.
Speaker #1
Will and I have done some psychedelic journeys in the past for, for healing. We've both done psilocybin. Will has done ayahuasca. For those who have listened to our show in the past, we've covered both of those ayahuasca and psilocybin. We really haven't spoken very much about ibogaine. I'm very curious about it. If you could, for our listeners and. And for the two of us, I think Will is probably more educated on this than I am. What is Ibogaine? Where does it come from? And how did people, I guess, figure out that there's this long cultural healing history?
Speaker #0
Yeah, I think it's an interesting story how it got to the West for sure. But it originates from a plant, a shrub, the roots of a shrub from... Gabon in Central Africa. And for thousands of years, at least, people have used the root bark of this shrub for ceremonies of healing and rites of passage. And, you know, they've had an opportunity to witness a lot of very similar things. You know, I've been to Africa several times. And the first time I went, they were trying to explain to me that the gentleman who was closing out his initiatory process that night, who was learning the steps of the dance, walked in on a cane and didn't need it at that moment, obviously.
Speaker #2
Yeah, yeah. I remember you telling that story, like incredible. Yeah.
Speaker #0
Well, that was that was in Africa. So like that didn't compute until we saw it happen in the clinic.
Speaker #2
Oh, right. Yeah.
Speaker #0
And then now we have seen that happen with several guys where, you know, one gentleman needed a... leg brace that he you know, he he suffered gunshot wounds to the hip and still had peripheral nerve damage that had it fully healed so he had mobility issues and sensitivity issues and stuff like and walked out without his knee brace and then Started to get sensitivity back in his foot and then there was another another gentleman who had suffered from gunshot wounds to the head and had kind of debilitating light sensitivity and headaches and difficulty balancing. And he needed a cane and he left the cane with us when he, when he left. So, I mean, there's, obviously it's pointing to some kind of, um, physical healing or that's the way we understand it. But in, in Africa, I think it was, um, understood in a very different way and contextualized in a very different way. And it was connected with... the sort of transmission of cultural values and in the village. And so there's a lot of beautiful kind of structure and poetry that surrounds the use of the medicine. And so, and, you know, for a long time it was done in secret, but, you know, it started to make its way into the Western world at the turn of the 20th century. And, you know, early scientists were extracting it and stuff. And it actually was used in small doses as an antidepressant in France in the 30s and up through the 50s. And then, you know, they eventually pulled it from the shelves. But it's kind of having this resurgence. And the way that it's kind of blossomed in around the United States and in the Americas is in. The 60s, there was a gentleman, Howard Lotsoff, who was a heroin user in Staten Island, New York, and he was experimenting with different drugs. It was the 60s. And he came across some Ibogaine and took it and realized that he didn't have any withdrawal or any more craving for heroin. And he actually took it quite far. You know, he got like by the early 90s, NIDA. the National Institute on Drug Abuse, was helping to provide funding for FDA trials. And there was a bunch of different things that happened to kind of coalesce that the trials ended. And that resulted in this sort of. underground movement that formed. And so, you know, I'm sort of one of the benefactors of this, you know, we all are now, but I feel like I kind of went down to work with people who had come off of heroin themselves and saw ways to improve upon the care that they'd received. And so it was the sort of peer driven kind of paraclinical movement that started outside of the United States. in Mexico, and there was a little bit in Amsterdam and that kind of thing. So that's what was around. That's how people were using Ibogaine for the last several decades. And it's only in the last four years or so as Navy SEALs started to, I guess, end up in straits that were dire enough to go and try things on these kind of fringes that guys started going down and trying Ibogaine and realizing how much that it changed for them. And it's ever since that happened, things have been going very fast. It's been like wildfire. You know, like the Stanford study took off just a couple years later and started to elucidate all of this. Now, because of the results of that study, there's stuff going on in Texas to try to provide additional funding to drive it forward. But that's really where it comes from. There's a kind of a long cultural history. and you know The story about what Ibogaine is has changed at different times and in different places for different people.
Speaker #2
Yeah. Do you feel it's on the right path now as far as like the story and what it's able to do for people?
Speaker #0
I think it's interesting to me, like when I went down to work in Mexico with all of these sort of early Ibogaine providers, I wasn't coming off of heroin. So it wasn't what drew me to it. I mean, obviously, it was the most interesting thing that was happening at the clinics. And we learned a lot about it. And we still at Ambio have a site that's dedicated for drug detox and, you know, can help people come off of fentanyl and all kinds of polysubstance disorders and stuff. It does it like nothing else. But it's interesting to me that the story is beginning to expand and that people are starting to understand that there's something a little bit more fundamental about what it's doing and that it... It's treating not only opioid withdrawal, but other things for which we don't have treatments like traumatic brain injury is a great example. There's nothing really available for veterans who are getting retired with TBIs or for athletes who are getting retired with TBIs. You know, that's led us to help to explore kind of other uses like mild traumatic brain injury is sort of on the lower threshold. of degenerative conditions that can happen to the brain. But when Brett Favre, you mentioned his name, he came down, things had progressed to him to the point he had Parkinson's, which is a far more advanced neurodegenerative condition. And so we actually have programs too that are designed to help people who have Parkinson's or multiple sclerosis or these more advanced conditions to try to take Ibogaine and seeing good results there too. And I think, you know, just to... Properly answer your question in terms of is the story on track? I think when we call it a cure, I think it's a little bit too far down the road. And I think that we still have a lot to learn to understand exactly what it is and for who it can help. But it's so incredible what it's doing because there's nothing else that's even close. So that's, I think, why that term gets thrown onto it.
Speaker #2
Yeah. Well, I mean, after studying for this podcast, listening to your podcast and you and your two colleagues, your co-finders of Ambio really, really speak to obviously very well. One thing that I thought was very interesting about your own story about taking Arbogaine, I think it was the first big dose that you've ever took, you know, was you started, you stated that you started listening to a different voice in your head. And I'd love to hear about that. but like and then we can dive into like how ibogaine like helps us to kind of break negative patterns of thinking and chatter and provider with provide us with greater agency over our actions like you know let's dive in there like how does it do all this yeah i think that's um that's i'm so interested in that i'm glad you asked because i think a lot of the times we gets the the research gets reduced to kind of the the cellular mechanisms or the outcomes and stuff
Speaker #0
So because of that, there hasn't been like enough discussion or enough minds kind of thinking about the psychological process that's unfolding. There is a Princeton scholar named Julian James, and he came out with this. theory of the mind that said that actually our ancient ancestors weren't exactly conscious in the way that we think about consciousness, that consciousness hasn't been very uniform throughout human history, that it's changed. And there's been periods where people experience the mind quite differently than the way that we do today. So. What he suggested was that prior to sort of the emergence of what we now experience as consciousness, that our ancestors had something called a bicameral mind. And what it would feel like is that there's a voice that we hear that comes in moments of decision stress and tension when we're confronted with a novel problem that we've never had to face before. and we sort of hear this voice. that provides us with the answer, the solution. And that's coming from almost like from outside of us. And then there's the other part of us that sort of receives the instructions and carries it out. And that's where we identify with. So it sort of sounds like there's someone else telling us the answers. And so that would, you know, in James's mind help to, you know, explain everything from ancestor worship to, you know, the gods to um to the god of monotheism and you know christianity like that this voice would help to puncture through the noise and provide some sense of clarity and he says that we kind of lost this mind that was sort of split in two chambers as we move towards the frontal cortex and end up with like a different kind of problem solving mechanism but um You know, I think maybe in my mind, the way that I think about Ibogaine is our way of solving problems in the world has been so incredible and so inventive and brought us so far. And we're able to communicate across vast distances and to consolidate information from centuries of learning and develop, you know, incredible technologies. but there's certain problems in our life that it doesn't solve well. And that sometimes there maybe are periods where we have to stop trying to solve problems that way and look for a different way of trying to solve the problems of the mind or the problems of the heart or the problems of the soul. And so I think that psychedelics prevent us. Not necessarily with a cure to the problem, but with a completely different frame of reference to try to look at the problem in a different way. And the way that Ibogaine does, I think it so frequently puts people in touch with the sense of this other voice that comes through and provides some kind of direction. And anyways, I think that there's still obviously a lot more that can be said about it. There's some variation in the experiences that people described, but I see it as potentially helping us to access some kind of ancestral problem-solving mechanisms that usually we just let in the unconscious.
Speaker #2
We've had Dan Carcillo, the car bomb. He was, I don't know if you know Dan, his work with, he was a two-time Stanley Cup winner. You know, had a... sadly leave the sport at age 30 because he had early on stage dementia from getting in so many fights and had so many concussive and tbi injuries and you know and uh he took a massive his first dose of a big dose of uh of psilocybin like it knocked him on his ass for sure and he was in touch with some sort of divine entity that i definitely experienced with ayahuasca and psilocybin and there is something there is like this uh you know, I've heard you say it and I've also experienced her to said many times like mother earth or Pachi mama or whatever, that just kind of helping to guide you back to, you know, your compassion itself, like your heart, but also connecting to the collective love and compassion that's kind of out there. Um, and it's, it's really, really powerful. And it's strange too, cause you're in, you're having this experience and then it's like, you know, you start kind of hearing things and you're kind of guided in some way and know that you're, you know. being taken care of. And it sounds like Abigain has kind of that same, you know, infusion of divinity within it, which is just fascinating.
Speaker #1
You talked about compassion and... What Will and I understand is that Ibogaine really helps to reinforce the compassion-centered view of addiction. And what I mean by that is some experts say that the real question isn't why the addiction, which often gets asked in society now. Why are you an alcoholic? Why are you using opioids? Why are you using X, Y, or Z? But now, instead of why the addiction, the shift is why the pain. How can Ibogaine help us to answer that?
Speaker #0
Well, I think it brings us to that question because it's kind of a perfect medicine for coming off of opiates. Like you were, you know, when somebody is coming in from heroin, they're taking opiates right up to the morning of the treatment. And then they're taking Ibogaine in the night. And then they're not taking opiates anymore. And it's helping to mitigate upwards of like 80% of the acute withdrawal. But not only that, like, I mean, acute withdrawal is like, I mean, it varies, like if depending on the body and how we become habituated, you know, it can like vary from anything from like cold symptoms to like quite extreme. But even then, I mean, it's like several days. That is not the hardest part of going through opiate, like, addition recovery. The hardest part is the months that follow and the year that follows of where you still feel like you're dragging ass and, you know, you're still thinking about using or, you know, life still feels like, you know, you're kind of chained to the same depression. And I think what Ibogaine does is not only it gets through the withdrawals, but it kind of puts you like you're six or nine months up the road where you can just come out almost immediately with a sense of more or less normalcy. Like it really does put you in that position where you kind of just have a choice. So that's I don't even know. I don't know what you would expect from a medicine to do for addiction more than that. Because if you do, you start getting into the, yeah, yeah. Like, otherwise you're starting to oppress people now where you're actually like trying to control their behavior so much that they don't use anymore. But I think this is the, this is the perfect medicine in the sense of recovering that sense of agency, which, which addiction erodes, you know, it takes away your sense of choice. You know, like it's, it is that feeling like. By the time that you think about whatever it is that you want to do, like there's no stopping you. You're already doing that thing. It's like reaching for your phone or reaching for a drink or whatever. But there's no way to stop once you've had the thought into your mind. But I think I begin puts you back in the place where you can decide you, you know, the thought can come in your head and it has no momentum. You just see the choice as it is and you can make it one way or another. But I think, you know, even though it does that, people still go back and use. So it confronts us with the problem that you described. Like, why is it actually that people are using? It's not because necessarily just that they're habituated to opiates that they're using them. But why the pain? Like, what is it treating? And so it sort of forces us, like, even if we're going to use Ibogaine as a tool. Now we have to understand how to approach this question to even do that properly.
Speaker #1
It's really powerful. I'm curious, like you do a lot of brain scans around this work, which is, you know, that's it's pretty awesome to see the before and after, I'm sure. And speaking in terms of addiction, whether it's heroin or alcoholism, do you see like, you know, pre-scan, you know, before someone comes in or the studies that you've done, whether it's like. I mean, I'm not sure. I'm just asking the questions like, is there like an addictive part of the brain that is lit up? Right. And then after the treatment Ibogaine, you can see that activity in that part of the brain like decrease significantly, which gives you that agency to make that choice. We talked, you just mentioned earlier. I'm just curious. I don't know if studies have been done like that, but it seems I'd imagine like if you're, you know, if you want, want, you feel the urge, like you just keep going back and using, you know, the, you know, the body is just like a habit, you know, thing. in a lot of ways, and a lot of the habits are obviously in the brain. So are there areas like that that kind of light up in the beginning and then kind of diminish, you know, through the, through Abigain treatment?
Speaker #0
I don't know, to be frank. We're in the middle of a study right now where ambio patients are coming down, getting, like very actually very similar to the Stanford study, getting a scan before treatment, after treatment, and a month after treatment. And this for people who are going through opiate detox. So hopefully we'll be able to talk a little bit to the questions that you're asking. But in general, I think we do understand the mechanism or some of the various mechanisms about why it should work. But I don't know. I think that brain science and I'm not a you know, I'm not a neurologist, but I do think that brain science is moving away from the idea that. um things are very targeted and regional in the brain and more like there there's these network effects that are happening that connect various regions at the same time when you're in certain states of mind or whatever so um i think in general you know like you know you can see people have had like sections of brain removed and still are able to do functions that would have been attributed to like that area of the brain if the brain adapts you know but i think you you do see problems when there's general damage and that's why you know tbi affects like so many things it almost doesn't matter quite as much where the damage is like they you know, they even talk about like, no matter where the damage is, it affects the cerebellum and like certain areas of the brain more, even if that's not where the damage is, because things in the brain are so networked and so connected. So, but there's a bunch of ways that I could see where Ibogaine would help. And one of them, like if just looking at like the most extreme examples is like, we know that there's a lot greater prevalence of overdose. than there was before. Fentanyl has introduced an increase in the rate of overdose. Narcan and other kinds of harm reduction measures have helped to make those overdoses less fatal and so to increase the survivability rate of overdoses more often. Now, the problem is that sometimes when people are going through an overdose, even if they're getting resuscitated, they can experience periods of time where the brain isn't necessarily getting the same amount of oxygen. And you deal with this kind of problem in other kinds of emergencies as well. But if you experience hypoxia because of the lack of oxygen, then the brain can start to have cellular damage from that. And so then you start to get into a loop where... Essentially, you're dealing with the same kinds of problems that you see in mild traumatic brain injury and another kind of symptom or difficulty that people want to treat. Right. So the fact that maybe Ibogaine can help to generally improve cellular function throughout the brain and throughout the nervous system could have an effect. So I don't know if that's. I don't know if I can answer like in a way that's specific about brain regions, but I do think the brain healing effect can help to benefit people in recovery.
Speaker #1
Well, let's just get into actually let's talk about some of the things are getting in a way of like making this more widespread or actually of like let's talk about the hesitations maybe like so what are some of the, you know, the common, you know, misconceptions or fears that people have about our regain, you know, and how would you, you know, address them to somebody that's a little bit hesitant or skeptical? about like taking on this therapy?
Speaker #0
Sure. So, I mean, for a long time, one of the biggest concerns with Ibogaine was the fact that there's... risk factor, you know, and there have been a number of deaths that have happened because of people going into Ibogaine with pre-existing heart conditions or because they're on certain kinds of medications. And so, you know, when people are coming to Ambio, we are benefiting from decades of clinical experience and protocol development. Um, there's extensive measures in place to screen people and monitor them while they're taking it. So now it's, uh, it's something that now we deliver in a setting that functions like a cardiac intensive care units, even though it doesn't necessarily look like a cardiac intensive care unit, because we also acknowledge that this is a strong psychedelic journey and it's. deeply, deeply meditative and there's a spiritual component to this. So we make it comfortable and adapt it to that. But the place functions like a cardiac intensive care unit. I think now we can confidently say that we're fairly well aware of how to manage the cardiac risk. There are risks that get introduced if people are using drugs that they don't. inform people about or other kinds of health issues, like when all kinds of fentanyl analogs and other stuff started ending up in the fentanyl supply, it introduced a risk factor for drug detox, things like that. But I think there's now good answers to a lot of the concern about the medical risk. And I think that there's several different kinds of medications that can cause issues. And so they range from like antidepressants and psychiatric medications that we just have to ask people to stop before they come down, you know, and like carefully taper off of before the treatment to other medications that have similar effects on the heart. You know, that could come from various classes of drugs. But, you know, essentially, we just need to be very careful that it's not stressing out the liver where it begins to metabolize the heart. And it's not directly, I know, affected by Ibogaine. So I think by now we have a pretty good list. If clinicians are interested, there's a website called ibogainguidelines.com where years ago we consolidated a lot of the clinical experience and kind of wrote up a guideline for how to properly screen and monitor. And so ever since that's come out, the rate of problems globally has dropped significantly. You know, I do strongly believe, because I see it every day, that Ibogaine can be done safely. You know, I think that understanding how to deliver it clinically safely happened around the same time that all the veterans started to show up and to ramp up this interest very quickly. So the timeline kind of makes sense. like
Speaker #1
at the point where we're ready to explore scaling this because we the the safety mechanisms are in place well good i'm glad you're i mean uh the results that you're having over in ambio are just absolutely incredible and and you know it sounds like you obviously want to take care of your patients and like put all these different protocols in place in order to create a safe place so people can really you know fall into this and it's like you know that's one of the reasons we ask this question or you know because there are a lot of skeptics and people that are hesitant out there. And it sounds like it's also being done in such a more professional manner now. You know, I had a friend, like I mentioned earlier, that took him, I began like, I think it was like eight or nine years ago. And I don't know, you said it was over days that he had done it. But obviously he had some really profound, profound results. But there's also a legal thing around this. Like it's, I believe it's a Schedule 1 United States. So, you know. uh, let's talk about like the legalities and, and, uh, and where can people actually, I know you're, you're in Mexico is where Ambio is, I believe, or one of your treatment centers, you have another one in Malta or something, correct? Yeah,
Speaker #0
that's right. Uh,
Speaker #1
yeah. So what's the legalities of it? Yeah,
Speaker #0
sure. So Ibogaine for whatever reason did not end up on the United Nations green list of psychoactive substances, which is a sort of blanket listing that becomes the skeleton drug policy for UN countries, right? So most other psychedelics are on there, you know, so cannabis and ayahuasca and the masculine and peyote and LSD and other all listed on the green list. So if you're going to make any. changes, you know, it's, it's something that gets, it experiences friction at the international level. So like that was the case with Canada when we legalized cannabis, that there was this international friction that we needed to deal with. With Ibogaine, for whatever reason, it's not on the United Nations green list. So it's sort of up to each individual country, how they want to treat it. You know, unfortunately the United States, um, made the decision to schedule it alongside a bunch of other psychedelics back in the early 70s. And so it's been strictly prohibited with no medical benefits since then, but not so in other places. So like, you know, in Mexico, it's not prohibited, it's not approved there. But you know, you can work with it without fear of penalty. There's, you know, a number of other places around the world where where that's the case. And so that's how the professionalism of the clinics has been able to develop and expand over time. But unfortunately, for that reason, it is, you know, unavailable in the United States.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Well, I think you mentioned earlier looking to legalize it, or I just heard you on your podcast there in Texas, I think is one of the first states that they're really trying to use it as a legalize it as a therapeutic, you know, because of all the wonderful promising results it had on, you know, different populations would definitely can veterans being one of them.
Speaker #0
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So, but the fact that it is a Schedule I makes that a much more extensive and expensive uphill battle. But this effort in Texas is significant enough that it could overcome that barrier, I think. One of the problems that you have with psychedelics, and so Ibogaine falls into this category, is that they're naturally occurring. So you can't patent them. the way that you could patent other medicines. So it becomes less interesting for investors to come in and drop hundreds of millions of dollars to run it through clinical trials because you just don't have the protection to be able to recover that investment downstream. Like, you know, you go get it approved and then anybody can kind of come into the market shortly afterwards. So most... Most large investors and still a lot of investors are interested in novel molecules. So, you know, there's companies that are looking at Ibogaine and I think they can just make something very similar and it'll be novel and they'll have a patent on it. And so the state money really helps to remove a lot of that financial barrier. Right. So. You know, they're still expecting private financing to come in and participate, but it's not at the same level. And it sort of has this promise that potentially other states will come on board and kind of a funding coalition and really help to push things down the road, down the lane. So I think that's what's going on. And there is a few other states that are exploring an alternate path to Texas. this so like Rather than going through the FDA and trying to get it approved as a medicine, Colorado is trying to do what they did with cannabis early on and just legalize therapy.
Speaker #1
Yeah, it's a plant, right? Just legalize it. This doesn't need a patent or something. Right. Wow, that's great. Yeah. What about like, it seems like Ibogaine from everything you've talked about and what the studies have shown is going to be like a major disruption in typical medicines. I was reading something the other day. I think it was a meme or just like one of those slideshows on Instagram saying like, Pfizer has, you know, they've been around for like a hundred and some years and they haven't cured one disease, right? Are you experiencing any resistance from big pharma? Because this is really going to be a major disruptor if you can, you know, get people off SSRIs or, you know, cure their TBI and stuff like that, like, or anxiety, right? All those kinds of things that, you know, they're like, they have a... a big, obviously a big profit model to keep people, you know, on whatever substance they think is not curing them, but like it's definitely helping them in some way. Are you seeing any pushback from Big Pharma?
Speaker #0
No. I mean, me personally, no.
Speaker #1
Yeah, I'm going to say like, I guess the abogaine as a substance that is obviously having tremendous effects as a way to cure people.
Speaker #0
Yeah, I mean, Ambio is really sort of focused on being a great clinic. And so normally in the process of drug development, you start as a drug developer and then you have to go through the long process of clinical trials. And by the end of it, you start thinking about how are we going to commercialize this? drug and offer it at scale. And I think what Ambio has the opportunity to do is to play the very important role of trying to understand what it looks like to deliver Ibogaine at scale. Because one thing is, you know, doing the studies and showing that it, you know, works to help to treat these certain symptoms. The other thing is like, now that you've established that this is actually one of them The larger complications is how do you deliver it to a large number of people? So Ambeo is very focused on that front. And so for that reason, we don't we're not really in a position where we would experience the pushback from pharmaceuticals. But I would imagine that the folks who are driving things forward in Texas are having to lobby in the same corridors as that very powerful, well-equipped, well-resourced lobby. So I would imagine that it...
Speaker #1
might occur they've been trying to see how that takes shape as like this becomes more popular and you know and the resistance and like the fucking probably the the shit media that they're going to try to put out there you know about it and like you know highlighting you know those few people that have problems like they always do i mean it's just really sad you know like how they try to protect their greedy profits that you know they've proven time and time again time again And that they don't seem to really help a lot of people. Well, let's get into. Well, let's talk about like, what does a typical Ibogaine treatment, like what does a journey look like? You know, I was on your website and you have, you know, treatment can go from like seven to like 28 days. So, you know, take us through that from preparation, you know, through the experience and then the integrating all this wisdom afterwards.
Speaker #0
Sure. So yeah, to qualify that when it's seven to 28 days, that's for drug detox. So the... Oh, right. Oh,
Speaker #1
that's what I was looking up, by the way. Yeah, that's what I was looking up, because I have people that suffer, my family and loved ones, from alcoholism. So I was thinking in terms of that, but go ahead, yeah.
Speaker #0
So with alcohol, you're on the shorter end of that spectrum. And in fact, a lot of people, even if they're, you know, experiencing problems with drinking and that's affecting a lot of areas of their life, are able to stop for a short period of time before they come. And in that case. you know, we don't need to deal with it on site. Where we end up having to keep people longer is when they're taking drugs or medications that they can't stop before they come. And so we have to stabilize them on site. So like 28 days is like if somebody is coming in off of Suboxone, which is like a long acting opiate medication that it really takes a long time to clear out of the body. And it can be because of that, the withdrawals are also very protracted for people who've been taking it for a long time. But most of that period is just stabilizing and, you know, taking stabilizing medications prior to the Ibogaine treatment. So the kind of foundational treatment that we do, the core one, you know, we have people with us for five days. And so the journey looks like, you know, people are applying and then they're starting to work with a coach who helps them kind of think about. how to prepare and how to set things up for themselves afterwards. And then they're arriving. You know, we've got obviously in Mexico and Malta. So they're arriving to whatever airport is nearby and getting driven to the center. And then they're there for those five days. And the first day is just preparing. You know, we do like hot cold therapy or Mexican style sweat lodge and just try to do something that's sort of physically intense and demanding. at the beginning to kind of put you in the mind state of like, okay, we're here to focus and turn inwards.
Speaker #1
And I love that. Yeah.
Speaker #0
Yeah. So, you know, it's important and it's also a very group bonding activity because people are going through as a cohort and there's a lot of support that comes through that, but you know, you kind of need to find the, find the connection at the beginning of a group process like that. And then we do go through some breathing. activities the next morning with people as we're starting to help to prepare people. Because you need to have some tools. Like if you're going to be in this intense process, you have to, even if you have them, it's a good time to just check in and remember how powerful the breath is and what that's going to be like. So we do a lot of work to prepare people. The food is good the whole time. You know, they get a massage. You know, we treat people very nicely. And then they're doing all the medical preparation. And then they're starting to take Ibogaine that evening. So we ask people to prepare what's called a burn sheet. That's just a list of the things that you kind of don't want to carry forward into your life. I mean, like things that are blockages that you want to let go of. And the idea is if I'm putting these things into the fire now, then when I'm laying down into the room, I can kind of start to focus on what's beyond those blockages and kind of inquire about, you know, the way forward.
Speaker #1
And so it seems like it has like also that, you know, I know with ayahuasca and also, you know, psilocybin is like an intention, you know, that is that can be very helpful when you're moving through the journey. Like you said, it's like, you know, just writing stuff down and somehow that brings it up into your in your brain, into your consciousness, into your energy. And, you know, maybe the medicine can kind of work with you on those things when you're in the experience. but Keep going. Yeah. Sorry to cut you off. I just want to, this is common, but it's interesting, like the power of intention, you know what I mean? And how it really plays out when you're kind of meeting yourself, meeting a new entity or like kind of some divinity that's within this plant, but just really, really fascinating how it shows up in more than one kind of ceremony and medicine.
Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, as physical. As this process is, it really does show us the kind of link between the mind and the body. So the mind is, you know, the more that we're able to kind of focus and engage and use the resources of the mind in the process, I think it helps to direct the energy and the flow of all the energy that's going through. Yeah, so then when, you know, after the fire and after the burn sheet, people take the first dose and within about an hour they go in and lay down and get hooked up to a heart monitor and there's going to be a team there the entire night on short shifts because they're they're up all night so um and then that's you know that's where people go through i mean the experience itself really asks you to lay down like physically yeah i remember you saying that's in gravity.
Speaker #1
just go like. But it's also like a long experience, like 24 hours or more, right? 36 hours almost, you know, to move through. It can be. High dose, is that correct? Okay, yeah.
Speaker #0
Yeah, I mean, it's maybe the first like 10 or 12 hours where it's the most intense. And after that point, some people are able to get up and be conversational and go have some breakfast and whatnot. But I'm on the 24 hour train and like, you know, stay fairly horizontal, even if. you know, 12, 14, 15 hours later, I make it to my, my room again, I'm just resting like, um, and really that's no matter what the thing about the next day is, there is nothing to do. It's kind of a forced meditation practice. And the discomforts of that day are kind of like, you haven't slept, you're probably tired and you're in a forced mind. So I'm just like, you know, that As beautiful and as that can be, there's also just challenges to just being that, you know, I think it's like guides us into that. And it's gracious in how it shows us how to just be. But, you know, it's a momentum shift for most of us.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Well, you call, I like to, you described them as your gray days. And it could be like many days that you're just kind of like, I mean, from what you're describing it, it sounds like, you know, you're. you know, you're, you're, you've processed so much through the experience and, um, and, or not, and also changed, like there's a, there's a plasticity element that seems to be involved with this. So, you know, it's gonna, you're going to have a certain number of days. I remember one of your colleagues talking like seven days it took him after a high dose to really kind of get back to like kind of normal consciousness, uh, which is really fascinating. I mean, cause it is, it's, it sounds like it's deeply, deeply working on the brain in so many different ways that You need these days afterwards that you're not only processing that information and incorporating that information, but your brain is healing and also showing you a new path, it seems like.
Speaker #0
Absolutely. I mean, at least it's encouraging to be able to say, but even though it takes a long time to process the entire thing, it's usually the gray day. And then people are on site for another day of kind of resting and you kind of returning back to normalcy. Like you can be with the group and you're getting back. Your diet is kind of returning to normal. You know, you kind of have shared meals and stuff. And the following day, everybody's ready to go home. But you're right. It can still take time to fully process everything. and end. That's what we want, right? Like, we don't want something that kind of goes in quick and it's a flash in the pan and, you know, really cool pictures like a Disney movie and then it's kind of back to normal. What we want is that it holds open this window for very real change. And Ibogaine does that. more than anything that I think we know of. There was a study at Johns Hopkins where they looked at, they called this the critical period after a psychedelic, where there's this increase of neuroplasticity and the ability to be able to learn new things. And, you know, they did this in mice, but it gives you a reference point where like ketamine, the critical period was like 48 hours and then MDMA was like two weeks. And LSD was three weeks. And Ibogaine, I mean, the line goes up and it goes across and it gets to the four-week mark. And they just had to stop measuring because they ran out of resources for the study. But it didn't drop off yet because it's just, it's long. Yeah. And it's not because there's necessarily Ibogaine or nor Ibogaine like still swimming around in your body. It starts this. process into cells it's in your body there's this it creates this openness to change and growth and so that endures and so i think that we don't necessarily want it to do that to us forever like we do what we want to do is find a new baseline you know and come back to a new baseline but it provides us with this opportunity to anchor really big, really powerful changes in our life. Right. And so the, yeah, the process on site is five days and there's a couple more sessions with therapists and stuff. But I think afterwards it, in a lot of ways, it's really clear to us some of the things that we need to do, you know, like we know usually what the good things are and it's just hard to do them because we get stuck in these. patterns, not necessarily as damaging or destructive as an addiction necessarily, but it's the same thing where it's, you know, the train's already left the station, like the tracks are laid, like it's really hard to shift off course. And here is something that can give us back this sense of agency just to kind of be very present in the moment and be able to look at the choices. And when we know what the good ones are, usually we gravitate towards. Yeah, just to say it kind of sucks the momentum out of all of the habits and behaviors so that we have that ability to choose how we go forward.
Speaker #1
Yeah, that's a great way to put it, actually. You know, it's like habit is just such a motherfucker. You know what I mean? It really is. And that's what keeps us in these cycles of thinking, of doing, of addiction, of bad relationships, of bad choices. It's just a habit, but also the environment that we live in and so many different things that, you know, that we learn about here that I try to, you know, improve in my own life, you know, so I can just keep a clear path forward with really what I want to do. But there's also, I know, like, you know, with psilocybin, like, do you have like an integration period afterwards? Like, I mean, like where you kind of are checking in with people like once a week and just kind of making sure they're, you know. staying on that path, even though the new tracks have been laid, like you mentioned, but, you know, some people, if they're in a bad environment, if they're in like a, you know, home that isn't very supportive of this kind of work, you know, is there somebody there, uh, through Ambio that like kind of helps them to just say, Hey, check in, stand a path, how we doing? Like, you know, we talked about this during the treatment and before, and like, are we, you know, stepping forward into those things that we want to be doing? Is that part of your process?
Speaker #0
Yeah, everybody that's coming through has a coach that they work with. And that's the idea is that you're starting to talk to them beforehand. And again, even before, you kind of know what the changes are that you need to make. And so sometimes you want to front load as much of the preparation as you can. But then, yeah, they're continuing to discuss that with you afterwards. There's other groups and resources available and stuff. And I think it is important to be able to have that. And it's important to be able to just recognize what the resources are that we have close by. To kind of finish on that thought about laying new tracks, we don't want to necessarily always be... I think the brain is an energy conserving. machine. What it wants to do is to have to make less decisions because it needs to be efficient with calories and energy. And so we want to automate as much of our processes as we can so that we can focus on what's most essential and what's most important, which is why we end up with all of these automatic patterns and habits. So being in this state of mind where we're being very mindful and we have this like agency to kind of direct even like diminution in our life to some degree is a little bit exhausting because it's demanding that we pay so much attention. And so it really is a think about then just setting new habits. It's like, okay, we're going to get back into. little bit of autopilot at some point. So we just want to make sure that we're changing gears, we have time to kind of set up a new pattern and a new habit. And then, you know, hopefully, when that automation kind of kicks back in, we're, we're doing things that are better for us that we have less regrets about or, you know, need to make such massive course corrections from again, in the future.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Lovely. And are these sessions guided? you know, like, you know, I know there's music that's sometimes played, you were in eye shade, it's like, is it, is the medicine just does its own thing and just like kind of guide you on its own journey? Or is there someone, is there a mix of kind of someone in the medicine? And, you know, just curious how it all works.
Speaker #0
Yeah, no, I mean, in, so in Africa, there's different traditions. And there's, you know, to simplify it a little bit, there's a very old tradition of using very, very high doses. And when you take such a high dose, you just have to lay down and we'll talk about it afterwards because there's no way to interact really. And then there is a way of working with kind of lower doses. And then that is a lot more guided. The expectation is that you're present enough to still receive inputs and to be able to share what you're seeing. to provide the confirmation that you're seeing the right things and that you're navigating through. So, you know, I've experienced both in Africa and I find it really fascinating. But I also think in the West, we don't trust other people that much to be guided, you know. And so what we do at Ambio is we're working more in the former kind of mode where. You're taking a larger dose and it's kind of just between you and the medicine. But we're going to do a bunch of stuff in the front end to kind of explain some of those navigation tools that you can try to use while you're going into that. And that's what the breathwork is about, practicing that a little bit and kind of being prepared to go in on your own. And at that point, no, then there's not really a need for a lot of action. active guidance, the experience really directs itself.
Speaker #1
Wow. Is there an intensity within the experience? Like I know ayahuasca for me has been very intense when you're, when you're, you know, with high doses of the medicine and you know, it's, you can fall into the abyss, which can get a little scary, go into the void. And it's just like kind of losing a lot of control or just, which I think is obviously essential for a lot of these medicines. But are those kind of difficulties come along with a high dose of Ibogaine. Or even like a boost, like you talked about, like, or like, you didn't say that word, but that's another way of like taking abacane at a lower dose instead of the flow dose you mentioned, or like another is a high dose.
Speaker #0
Yeah, or we call it a flood dose. Oh, flood dose, not flow. Okay, a flood dose. Yeah, there's a point where it's sort of, I think in a nice way, it kind of overwhelms you. Like you have to lay down and there's, you know, focus on completely on what's going on. And... So I would say, yes, there's an intensity for sure, you know, and there's a physicality to it. And sometimes people are throwing up and they're not sleeping. And but. Even still, for the most part, for us, it looks like people are asleep because it really kind of wants you to stay quite still. You know, like in in the traditional way that they kind of just want you to have your arms laying at your side or maybe your hands crossed over your stomach or something like that. But otherwise, like even if you cross your legs by your feet, like they'll uncross them like that. You kind of it's like corpse.
Speaker #1
pose you know just want to lay like like a plank rising of the dead or something right you're just like you know coming back to life after like 24 hours of this incredible experience wow that's yeah there's this kind of like impulse towards like stillness and so there's this it's kind of like controlled intensity i think and
Speaker #0
we don't see people have big emotional reactions to it like they're interiorly there can be a lot going on But furthermore, I think that there's this sense of almost like you're just a witness of what is coming up, you know. And so people describe that even to the extent of like it showed me. Right. Or like if they were watching things on a on a real like a movie. And I think the difference is like we watch some pretty crazy stuff in movies. Like that if you were there, it would be terrifying. But we watch it on TV. And even, you know, if you're really into it, you can have an emotional reaction. You know, even like, I don't know, the first time I watched Game of Thrones, it's like, like, it touched me, you know, or like, or even like Breaking Bad. There was things like when I watched it at that time, it was like shocking. And it made me feel something, but I wasn't there. And that's the difference of like, just being a witness. And I think Ibogaine can, the way it wants to like show you things, but you still are, it's like you and this other thing that it's showing you. And so you're, you're still anchored in yourself. You still know that you're in the room and then you took Ibogaine. You know, if you put your hand up that the nurse is going to come over and you, they can help you walk to the bathroom and get back to your bed. And so there's this sense of like. still being anchored, even if there's intensity kind of being shown to you. And I think that sense of a witness kind of mentality, I think it makes it almost in some ways, and I sometimes I'm a little bit shy to say this, but makes it like easier to navigate than other psychedelics. Like it's intense and long and there's things about it, but like there's things about it psychologically that make it easier.
Speaker #1
Yeah, it sounds like it. I mean, from I mean, I haven't done Abigain, but it sounds like you'd be, you know, just lying there and just receiving really, you know, and just experiencing and kind of witnessing, like you said, which is like, wow.
Speaker #0
That's the place to get to, you know.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and this has been really great, Jonathan. And like anything like that we haven't covered, do you feel would kind of like put a little bit of a bow on this wonderful conversation we're having about this incredible therapeutic.
Speaker #0
Yeah, I think, you know, we started off by talking about some stuff about symptoms, you know, like PTSD and depression. And I think sometimes we kind of reduce a little bit our experience to these diagnoses. And I think that would be one of the things with psychedelics that would almost be like too bad if it just became like where you go into a doctor's office and write a. prescription like oh you got depression like here you go take some ibogaine you know um i think it really is something that needs to as much as maybe it has this like flicker of hope like it's good to kind of grapple with the fact that it's a journey and to feel called to engage with the whole journey of it not just the potential reduction of the symptoms and so If it is something that's calling to you, I think by now there's so much stuff out there, like guys who have been through, and I'm sure you can find similar stories, but listen closely to what it took for them, how they prepared, what it's been like for them afterwards. And I think it's really in this kind of long form and very personal story that we get to understand a little bit better how to prepare than just. it might treat my X, Y, Z.
Speaker #1
Right. Well, also, it seems very promising, you know, as far as, like, somebody that is battling with addiction, you know, that it really sticks. overcome like i mean like i mentioned alcoholism that exists in a family tree you know and uh what is the result like so alcoholism like it's like a high recovery rate or or you know high sustainability of like you know no more imbibing
Speaker #0
of alcohol down the road i think it gives you that sense of agency so much more than any other way that you could approach recovery like in It puts you so much further ahead along the recovery process than you could get by any other way. But,
Speaker #1
you know,
Speaker #0
like, for example, with opiates, we'll say 100% of people who took the Ibogaine had no more physiological dependency on the opiates.
Speaker #1
Wow. Right.
Speaker #0
Right. Because it does that. Like that, it does. But it's after that. So I think the people who benefit from the most are, like, really ready. And so even if it's like something that you want for your loved one, it's like you can kind of put it in front of them and on their path, but they have to go towards it. They have to understand that it's a journey and they have to engage with that and they have to be at the point where they're going to be able to take advantage of that decision point that it opens up in their life. Right. I think it's. I think it's just important that we look at it like that. And yes, you know, it is something that can treat, I think, a number of conditions. I do strongly believe that's the case. And we need to start thinking about conditions and the recovery from different conditions as a very personal journey that, you know, has spiritual dimensions to it as well.
Speaker #1
Yeah, well, it's also that relates to what you said earlier about it being a calling. You know, you get really like, that's like the psychedelics. I mean, I've taken ayahuasca like six times and it's not something like, oh yeah, fuck it. I'll do ayahuasca this weekend. Like, no, no, no. It's like, it's like, it is a calling, you know, cause I get, I, you know, I'm part of this group and they have, you know, they have offerings like every, you know, through every quarter, every month sometimes, you know, they have a center and I'll be like, no, no, not ready, not ready, not ready, not ready. You know? And then it's like, you know, five years later, I'm like, okay, I'm ready again. Because it is, it's a, it's a, it's a real undertaking that I think a lot of, like, I'm glad you're describing it. I'm just helping also people to pin it down. Like it is a journey, but it's something that you have to be willing to do, but going, you know, full steam ahead with it, you know, like, you know, being ready for the prep work, you know, going along for the journey itself when you're actually, you know, under the influence of the, within the therapy, but then also doing the work afterwards. but what I was so great about as I'm understanding Ibogaine is just like the after effects or just sustaining happier lives. Like I love you. We said multiple times, you talked about, you know, having a choice, like having self-agency, you know, to make different choices, to live a happier life, to not go back to that darkness by whatever was controlling you before. And it's just, it's so, I mean, the one of the reasons we, I'm so glad you reached out to us for this conversation because you know a lot of people are suffering and what it's doing with tbi and ptsd and um and even like neurodegenerative diseases like parkinson's it's just you know it's so wonderful that we have something that is uh just becoming more and more understood right now having profound effects on you know on anybody basically any any life that kind of takes it in um and we're just understanding on on on on on starting to understand a deeper level of what it can actually do What does the next five years look like, you know, do you think around this or maybe 10 as far as what you're going to discover and then, you know, maybe how we can kind of get it into more places and into more people so we can, you know, solve some of the opioid crisis and that sort of those sorts of things.
Speaker #0
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of tactical problems to solve around sourcing and like scaling clinical operations in a way that it's still, you know, feels as whole. you know, as we, as we want it to feel. And I, and I, I totally see that that's possible. I think it's just going to be a journey and a process. And, um, there's a lot of stuff going on in the media with Ibogaine and there'll be a lot of regulatory stuff and there's just kind of a wild amount of momentum. So yeah, I think it's, we get to see like. history unfold. I think over the next five years, a lot's going to happen. And I, and I don't know, cause all of this has surprised me greatly. I don't know what's. what's possible with it.
Speaker #1
Well, you know, I think another addiction that we really haven't talked about is like tech addiction and cell phone addiction. Right. I think we have a generation of, think about it, we have a generation of kids, you know, especially Gen Zers and millennials, but definitely the Z people that are just like hooked and they're, you know, they're dopamine, you know, it's all fucked up. You know, dopamine levels are all messed up. Like we've had porn addiction specialists on and I'm sure it can help with porn addiction. I guarantee it can, you know, just from the way, because it is an addiction. And so... I'm so glad that, yeah, I always feel like it seems like the world is getting more crazy and become more addictive and people are becoming just, you know, zombies enslaved to the next whatever is put in front of them that we have therapies like Ibogaine. You know, we have like meditation. Mindfulness is coming more on board. Like, you know, eating healthy is becoming more. It's a kind of we don't hear it as much. You know, we talk about all the time on the show, but to counterbalance all this seeming chaos and addiction and just kind of living in zombie land for a lot of people. So, um, I'm so glad you're doing this work and where can, where can people find you and how can people get involved? Like your website is actually very impressive. I fucking love it. I don't know who your designer is, but it's very well done. But, uh, how can people get in touch with you?
Speaker #0
There's a bunch of information up on the website. Ambio.life is where you can find it.
Speaker #1
It's A-M-B-I-O, right?
Speaker #0
A-M-B-I-O dot life.
Speaker #1
Dot life. Okay, cool. Thank you.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And if you have a Netflix subscription, which I'm sure a lot of you do, you can go check out the movie In Waves and War, which just got released. And it shows the journey of three Navy SEALs who came through Ambio and the Stanford study that we've been talking about. It shows you before and after with a lot of the guys going for their brain scans and talking about it and stuff. So it's a very powerful, very emotional, very beautiful. uh, movie. So check it out.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. You know, and our producer, Michael, Hey, Michael, he listened to, uh, he'll put that in the show notes too. So you can just go right to the show notes here and also ambio.life we'll put in there. Uh, but Jonathan, I mean, congratulations for, you know, for your own journey, for where it's brought you, you know, where we are here today, uh, the number of people that you're continually helping, um, you know, anytime you want to come back on the show to talk about some other results or something, um, else about, um, abby gain or whatever else like you please come back like um you know you're you're a healer and um in this regard and we need more people like that in the world and we need to amplify those voices so um thank you so much for coming today and being with us well thank you brother it's an honor and a pleasure appreciate it and we had john dropped off about halfway so um and uh you know so and everyone for listening thank you for listening you know share this someone in your life that's really struggling you know, whatever is addiction or neurodegenerative disease, like go to the website to really see how incredibly powerful and how, um, you know, how it can help so many different conditions. So, and that's a wrap everybody. Jonathan, again, thank you for joining us today.
Speaker #0
Thanks Will. Thanks John.
Speaker #1
Yeah, you are. Yeah. John, bye wherever John is. Thanks and peace guys. Thanks for listening. Peace.
Speaker #2
Thank you for joining us today. We hope you walk away with some new tools and insights to guide you on your life journey. New episodes are being published every week, so please join us again for some meaningful discussion. For more information, please check out mentalkingmindfulness.com.