- Speaker #0
traditionally I wasn't kind of seeing myself as a creative person but I'm like we all have it it can look so different.
- Speaker #1
Welcome to Neurodivergent Spot. I'm your host Sam Marion. My pronouns are he him and I am a multiply neurodivergent therapist speaker and creator. My work focuses on all things neurodiversity but my particular interests are in autism, ADHD, learning differences, and learning disabilities. Today's guest will meet... is Iris Wong. Iris, please introduce yourself to the listeners.
- Speaker #0
Hi, Sam. Hi, listeners. Thank you for having me. So I am Iris. I am a late diagnosed ADHD, so autistic and ADHD adult. I am also a parent to two. And for the longest time, my professional hat has been a speech therapist, most of it in the public schools. And then I made a big pivot in one and two. executive functioning support and more recently have been able to like take on that kind of like title or identity of like coaching or coach that one was hard for me to reconcile for a while and um yep that's me in a nutshell and i love podcasts so thank you for having me before we continue i've got a quick disclaimer this podcast is for information purposes only and should not be seen as a replacement for therapy health care or legal advice um
- Speaker #1
all right i'm just curious you said you made a big pivot and I I'm just curious what made that pivot such a big one.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, sure. So I went into speech therapy wanting to work overseas for my whole life and did that for a bit. And then I met my husband and then decided to stay. And I'm back where I grew up in California. And then I thought I was going to be a pension-collecting public school employee for the rest of my life and then had children. And they needed different. educational setups and so left the public schools and thought what can I do and so tried a whole bunch of things and eventually right now I'm back into working with kids but in an EF capacity and it's been really good it's like I had the intuition that that was going to be my spot and it's been so good.
- Speaker #1
That's pretty great it does feel a little bit stereotypical for a late diagnosed with ADHD or to have at least one career pivot. Because I certainly have multiple. But yeah, that's the big ones were there for sure. But I wanted to have other questions here, Iris. Question number one, can you share your journey of neurodivergence and how it has influenced your personal and your professional life?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, happy to. So it's so interesting. I feel like when I listen to late diagnosis stories of other. people, which is part of what gave me bravery to go get myself like officially looked at. Yeah, it's, it's fun. Cause then it's a lot of like, Hey, then I take myself and zoom back into like stories of my own childhood and be like, Oh, that looks a little different. And yeah, so it's kind of fun. Cause I'm like, I've always loved movies and it's like going back into old movies and re-seeing my younger self and seeing like a truer version of what happened. But so. I turned 40 this year. I got myself late diagnosed like right before by a tad bit. And part of the impetus was, yeah, my own children, seeing their neurodivergence, seeing how they were growing and then realizing like, hey, I think this comes from me. And so wanting to help them find belonging and just for us to all get to know each other and our brains.
- Speaker #1
I love that. I think it's amazing what parents go through that process in order to connect with their kids and others in their life, you know, others in their families more. I've seen that a couple of times and it feels really, really powerful to me every time I hear it.
- Speaker #0
Yeah,
- Speaker #1
thank you. You referenced movies, though. Did you say, did I hear you correctly, that you like watching movies because you see versions of yourself in characters?
- Speaker #0
I think that applies for every kind of story. So like, I feel like I've like just like seasons of work interest. I have like seasons of what kind of like art I'm really drawn to. So like right now I'm like podcasting is an art. So thank you. Like I'm drawn to podcast. I'm like kind of deep diving back into like more memoir types of books now. But yeah, I have seasons. So it's like, oh, I was really into like comedy for a little bit. Or yeah, so there have been seasons where I've been like really into movies. And yeah, and I that That's one aspect of how I'm wired where I'm like, oh, no matter what kind of story it is, like the more different on the surface, the better. Like, I feel like I see some part of my own humanity and that's one of my deeper choice.
- Speaker #1
I love that. I don't consider myself an artist, but I found that I need some sort of creative. project going on at all times as an outlet for me. I started this podcast for that reason, because I needed one one day. And this is what I came up with. But yeah, to connect with characters, I think can be powerful.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I love that so much. And like, I think for the rest of life, I'm trying to nurture that creativity, right? Even though traditionally, I wasn't kind of seeing myself as a creative person. But I'm like, we all have it. It can look so different.
- Speaker #1
We do all have it. Yes, I love that. I want to keep going to questions here because I think this builds on the conversation. So you wrote a book about executive functioning for kids, which by the way, I'll go and say it'll be linked to the show notes. Absolutely will be. But your book introduced executive functioning to children ages like five to nine. which sort of blows my mind because I do some of this work in my office and I find it challenging. So I think it's amazing. What inspired you specifically to address the topic for a younger audience? And what impact are you hoping that the book specifically will have?
- Speaker #0
Sure. Thank you for that question. So I think it was kind of born out of lived experience first. Like I have a child who burned out of school really early on in preschool. removed him from that setting. And like, we found a lot of healing and burnout, both his and mine, because it was like deep pandemic at a parent co-op school where they just like really respected play and children's autonomy. And I'm like, there are schools like this and like very nature honoring. I started learning about like Reggie Amelia principles and all that. And then along the same time, I was looking into like upskilling, learning about executive functioning for our own purposes, and then thinking about whether it could be a possible. like professional pivot for me. And then just realizing that like, Hey, a lot of the best researchers say you have to develop some birth. And so why can't we make this fun? And why can't we bring in special interests without like stealing all the joy from it as well? So that's kind of the hypothesis or the experiment.
- Speaker #1
Um, it is, I think it takes intentionality, a lot more intentionality with some kids in particular to develop those, those EF skills. Um, and I think I struggle with my own executive functioning so much that that's probably my, one of my barriers for, for helping others develop it. Um, but at the same time, I'm curious because I know you do, you do this work. I run into, um, like almost every adult that I know has an ongoing to-do list. Nowadays it's, it's, you know, a lot of the parents that I work with, it's on their phone. Everybody has this to-do list. People have a. you know, day plan or whatever it may be. And their kids don't know that they do that. That's one of the things that I tell parents and I talk to kids about all the time. Like, do you realize how every adult in the room, I'll be sitting there with a kid and two parents, like every one of us has a to-do list right now. And the kids will be like, really? Because people will tell the kids to do these things without acknowledging that they're doing it. Do you run into anything similar or kind of a different version of it at all? Yeah,
- Speaker #0
I love that so much. And I feel like that ties back to. what I hear talked about more these days about like, you know, adult vulnerability, like the idea that like, we're like, as we're all finding our own ways with like parenting, or just being with students, even in a professional capacity, we're learning some of these ideas that like, things have to be hierarchical, or we have to have it all together. I'm like, the adults I loved in my own life growing up were the ones that were like, able to show their kind of like, imperfections and were like kind of just goofy and fun. And I think that was kind of my persona when I worked schools anyway. And then I let myself be my most neurodivergent self sometimes when I'm with children. And I'll be really straight up. I'll be like, my exact function is like really interesting too. And like, I don't have very complicated systems because I don't like them and I'll share it with them what I do. And I hope that it just gives them permission to find what they like.
- Speaker #1
I love that. I'm going to use that to kind of segue to the next question. So we're talking about, you know, executive functioning as almost as if it's this easy thing. And I think it's actually really complicated. But you have a background, a speech therapist, you know, you've worked in public education. You have, you know, you tackle these big topics and you write about it for kids. So how do you... Take all your experiences and how does that shape your approach to writing about these things for children?
- Speaker #0
Sure. The question is so generous because it makes it sound like, oh, it's so intentional. I pulled everything in. you know, the truth of the matter is like, I'll tell people like, hey, sometimes I do my best work in writing on an impulse. It's like the ADHD impulse. But it's like, I'll write when I'm like feeling something. And this publisher is really interesting because they have kids book about and then like lots of different topics. And they are open about their process for how they worked with authors, which is like they speak the topic into a book. So like we met with like an editor and you talk about it. They were so generous because we ended up not using the version I talked out because right off the bat, I was like, I don't know if I can talk a book into existence. And so it was like later on, I was in the shower and I was like, oh, all the talking like got my like gears turning and we were writing. I ended up writing afterwards that they were like, oh, this is really different. Okay, let's go with it. But used a ton of books in the public school system. And the like funniest ones always were the biggest hits. So I like tried to make it a little enjoyable.
- Speaker #1
I love the editors, the publishers, they were flexible with you and that your needs were honored in that. I think that's really powerful. Yeah,
- Speaker #0
totally.
- Speaker #1
I wonder how much that translates for how you work with kids, honoring their needs, honoring their processes, because there doesn't have to just be one way.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I can see that. Like, that's how you. practice as well or how you like meet people whether they're an adult or whatever age and yeah I've been like when people ask me like hey do you want referrals I don't always but I'll be like I like to say like oh I'm like you like consent forward sort of coaching like we come as equals and I want a lot of feedback and I want it to be more about them and about me because I think that's how I receive support too I'm like I will I'd rather have no support if I like can't be an equal in this room.
- Speaker #1
Um, So, yeah, I don't understand how people are in helping professions yet approach it with any sort of hierarchy. I know that gets into probably some of my own PDA, stuff like that, where I'm just like, nope, nope, nope. We're all just humans here. And sometimes, yeah, it's problem solving together with the family that it feels very mutual in working with the folks. All right, next question here, final on the list of four. But you've referenced multiple roles that you fill in this world, right? You know, as a parent, caregiver, as currently as a coach, you're an author, you've been a speech pathologist, so much. So, again, we're also talking about executive functioning. And so I'm a little bit curious, how do you manage all of these different
- Speaker #0
roles and responsibilities and are there strategies that you recommend for others as we're talking about being you know collaborative uh for who also occupy several roles yeah so i think when i kind of first started like reinventing life in a way of like hey okay let's yeah i was really scared because i was so used to being okay with the person that just worked for somebody else like i knew i kind of did well within a structure and within that structure i'd like figure out like maximum amount of freedom I have for myself. to, you know, serve whoever was there. And so it was really scary to like, think about like, how do I be a solopreneur? How do I make this like super, super tiny in a way that I am not overwhelmed and I don't just reason do nothing and like not lose hope completely. Like, so like, I think in all honesty, like I just put a lot of people's stories in my head of like different kinds of entrepreneurs and different industries. And then I think it's also that adult neurodivergent thread of kind of like reinventing life. Like my schedule looks really different. Like I work. in the evenings to do some coaching. I'll see like one or two kids during the day when my kids are at school and yeah, don't need me as much. And that part's more complicated than I'm able to get into now.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. You know, I think that, that bit about sort of re-imagining or reinventing what life could be, you know, how much there's sort of this like standard. way of life or schedule stuff like that. And, you know, if we're honest, we are recording this interview right now at a really early time in your time zone, right? Because you and I are different. We're across the country from each other. And that's not uncommon for me to encounter with people who are in different places because that's the way to balance these roles. You know, I've known people who get up early and they, you know, before kids are up, they're spending 45 minutes responded to all their emails for the day or you know things like that um and i wonder how much of it for you comes back down to values we haven't used that word i don't think in this conversation but it that seems like it's it's sort of been a presence though it's very value-based
- Speaker #0
Sure. And that's a funny thing where I'm like, oh, that might be my own PDA part. Like when I think of frameworks and stuff, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's nice for you. Do I really do that? I don't know. And then like I was thinking about like I grew up with a mother who was like very keen on her own values and like could rank them. I remember coming home from public school or whatever and being like, I have to do talk about values with you or something and being like, oh, those are strange or interesting adult values. But yeah, so I think it does. Yeah. Yeah, to like be short about it. I was like, I remember as a kid and still can zoom back there where I was like, oh, my mom really cared that people respected her. And I'm like, why? But I think now I'm like, oh, I really care about my autonomy, giving other people autonomy. And yeah, maybe that kind of colors other choices that I make on a day to day basis.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, that makes that makes a lot of sense. I'm curious, as we've sort of talked through a lot in a pretty short amount of time, is there anything that we've talked about so far that you'd want to go back to to dive in a little bit deeper or touch back on?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, sure. I don't know if you would choose this one, but I kind of liked that last question perhaps the most.
- Speaker #1
What else would you want to share about it?
- Speaker #0
I think what I would share is maybe what would have helped. me when I was in all those transitions and like in the difficult parts of like, am I ever going to make a new career for myself? Am I going to get back out there? Am I primarily just going to be a caregiver and, you know, struggling with that? And also nowadays, like more recently, I remember seeing Dr. Megan Anna Neff talk about like, no, like the optimal windows of stimulation of like being physically overstimulated, cognitively understimulated. I'm like, Ooh, yeah, that lands. experience that and like different variations on that and yeah right that whole thing of like not having shame that that's just what it is and um be able to create a life where i am well too and like i realize i'm like you know i might be having a hard day at home but now because i can go out and go see a student or whatever it is it really does fill my cup in a way that it helps me to have yeah somewhere to like send some of that creativity right to bring it back to something we shared earlier.
- Speaker #1
Um, If you could go back and talk to you a couple of years ago, maybe prior to the transitions, what are some of the things you would say to yourself? What words of encouragement maybe would you give?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I think I would say similar things or themes that I feel like I've been seeing more so talked about, like how we regard, you know, our young adults are about to like, I don't like the about to launch. terminology I think that needs to go because like what are we launching like rockets and why is it necessary to like launch people so aggressively into the world I really don't like that so maybe like I think I took a DJ class like very briefly a long time ago it was like a wedding present or whatever and the guy was like oh like gently like sending the ducks into the ocean about how like you use the whole DJ situation anyway I like that metaphor because I'm like okay I don't know it was just goofy and it stuck with me but it had a gentleness to it of like following like natural ocean waves and not being so forceful about things. And... Um, so I think like to try to draw this parallel together, like the idea of the one I saw online the other day was how, like, why as a societal norm, do we ask like 16, 17, whatever 18 year old's like, Hey, where are you going to college? Are you driving yet? And it's like, it puts people in boxes and it kind of like, doesn't acknowledge that there are a lot of possible paths in life. And I think I was getting asked those sorts of questions too. Like, when are you going back to work? When are you going back to the schools? And then I'm like, didn't really. have a good answer because I was like, I don't think I can. And in that, like, at the end of it, I was like, oh, it took me kind of three years of like trying a whole bunch of different things. Like I tried like ed tech writing. I tried like asynchronous adult coaching, like kind of had little gut feelings of like, hey, okay, maybe it does tie back into values of like, oh, I'm not really able to work in a way that is like moving along with interdiversity paradigm or like, oh, this doesn't sit right with me. Like the deadlines are too hard or. I thought of these being squashed a little bit and like just acknowledging and then eventually letting things go. Even when it was scary of like, I'm letting it go. I don't have another opportunity right now, but being able to like maybe see things as seasons and moving with it. But some of it comes to privilege too. Like I had a spouse that supported me and didn't push me along faster than I was able to kind of create new stuff.
- Speaker #1
You know... I appreciate you acknowledging the privilege piece, because I think that's something that we don't talk about enough sometimes. Just acknowledge it. You know, I 100% experience plenty of it from, you know, my clinical practice sits in a place where, I mean, I'm sitting in my office now, and I am in an area where, you know, I can. afford to turn around and spend time creating a podcast right and other resources and i you know um and i try to leverage that where i can to give back and things like that right because that's um that it is it is a challenging thing to navigate i think sometimes um and i i gotta say though um sliding topics just a little bit your educational background sets you up In an interesting way, I think speech-language pathology, because in some places, the jobs look different in different school systems. They're so needed that where I live here in Georgia, I believe it's the biggest school system. But if not the biggest, it's one of the biggest. Their efforts to retain speech therapists on staff have gotten to the point where, as I understand it from a friend who works in the schools, they don't. have any like morning afternoon duties where like a lot of you know teachers anybody who's not like having a home room they're out there on bus duty or car rider duty the speech pathologists don't have anything they show up in time to see the people and then leave and you know i think that speaks to the need and the flexibility they can be there and for some people that's wonderful flexibility for some people's needs and values it's still not not enough right and i think that's where it's good at looking at the individuals. Um, you know, knowing somebody who can leave the school and go work part-time three afternoons a week to make extra money. And some people who need to have a break in time between whatever they're doing and when they're going to be on duty with kids again and things like that. Uh, and it's all just different.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. It's so funny. You mentioned that. Cause like, you want to know what I thought about like kind of related kind of night. I was like, Oh, I actually really liked doing bus duty. Like the last elementary school is that, but I was like for me. And I guess it's does go back to me i'm like oh i have values after all but um i like being part of the community and so i did the best when they kept me at one site for over many years and i could like slowly build relationships at my own like hd pace and um yeah
- Speaker #1
and like yeah i felt like kids were the funniest at the bus stop i could see it i think in school sometimes where where the speech therapist is they're in the school and not varying, you know, to different schools. Those are some of the relationships that kids have that persist throughout the years at that school. And that's such a consistent thing. And I've seen that with multiple families that I've worked with. That's the safe person at the school because the kid has been seeing that same person since kindergarten. Now they're in third grade and things like that. It's such a powerful, powerful role. But again. And I wonder, does this just go right by the values? Maybe that's our theme today. But if the person doing that job isn't aligned in meeting all of their own personal needs, it doesn't last long. It doesn't, you know, and that's, I think that's another piece. So
- Speaker #0
I add one little thing that,
- Speaker #1
yes, please,
- Speaker #0
please. I think it like goes back into answering the original question a little bit better. But I was like, I think between my older kids kind of. experiences with school being in and out. And, and I actually, I only just learned this term. I was like, oh, before I was using that language of like school canned or school refusal, I was like, oh, I think in the UK they say like emotionally based school absences or something like that. I might be getting that wrong, but I was like, huh, that's another term. But like, I'm not sure yet. But, but it makes me remember like younger versions of me where I'm like, I had different waves of burnout. That's a huge part of my story or sometimes needing to like take a random day off in all of my jobs. once a month, even though I was like, oh, I don't have that many sick days. I mean, like try to move things around. And, but I think that ties back into the, like, yeah, trying to now make a life where I'm very, very aware of where I am in my system and honoring that with the other people I live with to help them get that as well.
- Speaker #1
I love that. And this may be grandiose, but my hope is that our society over time could become more accommodating and more accepting of everybody. Being able to make sure they're meeting their needs. And as you said, and the needs of those that they live with, right? Those people that we care most about. But, you know, I think it sucks how many people have to go against their needs in order to find a path through the world. So that's, I hate that.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it's a little bit of also like finding what really truly didn't work. And then, yeah. Yeah. But at the same time, I like, you know. I want to give you props for like, hey, podcasts are a great way for me to learn. I only just got into them last fall because before I was like, I can't do another app on my phone. There's no space. And then once I got into it, I was like, this is so fun. And like being able to like talk to you on Zoom.
- Speaker #1
this is accessibility to me you know in a way that i could not physically get myself into like recording anything and yeah the complexities of that you know um and all of this will wrap up but for me podcasts are really interesting because i love podcasts i listen to a lot of podcasts but they are an indicator for me for when i'm being more burn or when i'm getting more into a burnout stage because when i am more burned out i consume less content in general so if i find myself driving. and not listening to something, driving quiet, or maybe just like quiet music, and not something that's got content to it, I start to realize like, okay, Sam, we got to scale back on something that you're doing too much right now. But that's I've realized that's a big indicator for me, for burnout.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah, no, that's a really interesting and interesting. I'm like, I might share a little bit of that too, where I'm like, okay, no more words. I can't do words anymore like some music or just nothing yeah dark room time
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Words. Oh my goodness. If I have to answer too many emails, there's too many words. I'm done. I can't write, can't do anything else. So I get it. Iris, I've really enjoyed this conversation for people who've listened and they're enjoying it and they think I need to learn more from Iris. And I've already mentioned, I will make sure the book is, is linked in show notes, but how can people find you? How can they learn more from you?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Thank you. Well, so I, I started my Instagram account as part of my own, like kind of anonymous online neurodivergent and curious I'm asking. And then later on I put a face to it so you can find me there. And if you send me messages, I'll try to check and yeah, write you back. But my handle is E F toolkit. And like, yeah, pick that name a whole bunch long time ago. And I'm like, I don't even know if it still fits, but you know, whatever. That's where I still am. And yeah, website is similar. EFToolkit.com.
- Speaker #1
Awesome. Thank you so much for being here. joining me today. Thank you so much for sharing with listeners. Again, I'm your host, Sam Marriott. Thank you for listening to Nerd Avergent Spot. If you have enjoyed today's episode, please give us a like or subscribe. If there's anybody who you know who might benefit from listening to Ira share, please share this episode with them so they can also learn and benefit. Thank you so much. Thank you.
- Speaker #0
It's been fun.
