- Speaker #0
It's the off-limits couch. So if someone's sitting on the couch, they are by definition telling you to leave them alone.
- Speaker #1
Welcome to NeuroDivergent Spot. I'm your host, Sam Marion. My pronouns are he, him, and I am a mostly neurodivergent therapist, speaker, and creator. My work focuses on all things neurodiversity, but my particular interests are in autism, ADHD, learning differences, and learning disabilities. Today's guest is Kat Orme. Kat. would you please introduce yourself to the listeners?
- Speaker #0
Sure. Hi, my name is Kat. I am a very recently diagnosed person with ADHD. I was as surprised, I think, as anyone. I am an educator, an event promoter and producer. I work in the realm of the BDSM kink and leather lifestyle. Although I have experience and work also with people in the realms of trauma, grief, addiction, and a variety of relationship issues.
- Speaker #1
Before we continue, I've got a quick disclaimer. This podcast is for information purposes only and should not be seen as a replacement for therapy, healthcare, or legal advice. Kat, I'm really grateful you're here. I look forward to our conversation today. It's just learning from you that I. As I just sort of mentioned before we started recording, I see such a broad range of experiences in the neurodivergent community. And that's sort of what I want this podcast to represent. So I'm just really excited you're here with me. And so let's jump in. The first question is simply, what has your journey with neurodivergence looked like? Well,
- Speaker #0
I didn't know that I was neurodivergent for a really long time. I grew up. I was very good at school. I was a great reader. I did. I mean, I did all the things that you would think wouldn't be true of someone who were neurodivergent. My sister was the one who had trouble reading, was diagnosed as learning disabled, et cetera, et cetera. At a certain point in my adult life, I began to grapple with depression, with fairly intense depression. And it took a series of medications over a length of time to be able to to to medicate that. As I've gotten older, I mean, you know, for transparency purposes, I'm 60 years old. I'll be 61 next month. I stopped being able to read at a certain point along the way. I attributed that to depression and medication. And I had been in the restaurant business for a long time in the hospitality industry, which is a very much on your feet, moving around kind of a thing. But now I... I do work for a living where I do a lot of focused work on computers and whatnot. And I find that more challenging than I wish it would. And so the story goes on, but that's what led me down the road to diagnosis.
- Speaker #1
I'm curious, has reading come back for you?
- Speaker #0
I've been treated for less than a year. Um, I do read a little bit better now than I was reading for a long period of time. Uh, so, so yeah, some, I, it's not like it was when I was a kid, I was a voracious reader as a kid and, and I can't read like that now.
- Speaker #1
Gotcha. I found that when I get into any type of burnout or I'm slipping in one of the biggest indicators that I'm getting or am burned out is that I stopped consuming content. It'll be podcasts. I'm driving in silence more or I'm not reading as much. I'm avoiding just any sort of content. And I love to read. I don't read as much as I wish I had time for. But yeah, any sort of just like my brain taking anything else in just doesn't happen when I'm burned out.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. I'm still learning how to navigate myself and my brain and what does it mean? What is, you know? When does it come up? I was really lucky that I did my diagnosis with a psychiatric intern who, because we were looking at possibly prescribing Vyvanse, wanted to like dot every I and cross every T and make sure that he like, you know, could take it to his supervisor that he did the whole thing. Right. So we did a series of interviews to be certain that this diagnosis was appropriate. And so I was grateful for that. It's interesting to reframe things that you thought were one thing, but actually turn out to be this other thing.
- Speaker #1
And listeners of the podcast know this because so many people who've come on will share about being late identified and some of that experience of reflecting back. But that's so much of my clinical work is in my own personal journey to being late identified is reflecting back on life going, oh, that thing that happened decades ago. Suddenly it's starting to make sense. And it's bothered me for decades. I didn't understand. Now I think I do. And it's such a such a common experience amongst folks. Now, if we keep going here, question number two, as someone who facilitates healing for others, how did it feel to experience such a major personal revelation about your own neurodivergence later in life? And did it shift how you see your past or how you approach your work?
- Speaker #0
Well, certainly it gave me a whole lot of compassion and it was a sort of a sobering. humbling awakening to realize that, uh, you know, that I too have, have this thing. Right. Um, it also was helpful though, because I gave myself a bad time for all the things that I was having a hard time doing. Right. I just thought like, I couldn't focus cause I wasn't trying hard enough and I wasn't focused enough and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. Uh, I still have that feeling of like almost shame or guilt around what I thought I couldn't do. And, uh, So it was interesting to come to the realization that it's not just because I don't try hard enough.
- Speaker #1
That's a big realization. It's not about how hard we're trying. I wonder what sort of like grace have you been able to give yourself once you recognize it's not about the effort?
- Speaker #0
I've been I've been trying to give myself grace. You know, I've been one of those people. I've been beating myself up my whole life. Right. I keep thinking I'm going to put down that nice ball bat and then I pick it back up again. And that's been the story of my life. But I've been I've been trying to just that's the good way to put it, just to give myself grace. Right. To, you know, do what I can when I can. I've also been playing around with my schedule. Like when in the day am I the most clear headed to be doing work that requires that kind of focus? and when. Do I just have to, like, I found that there's like a sketchy spot around three or four in the afternoon where I get really tired. Um, and pushing myself through it is not the answer, right? Like letting myself rest, changing up what I'm doing, getting off the computer. Even if I just do physical things like fold laundry or something that doesn't require the same amount of brain power than being on a computer requires is better.
- Speaker #1
I think that's a huge thing. that I wish more people would embrace that, realizing there are times today that we are better suited for this task or less so and adjusting schedules accordingly. And that's, I see people, sometimes it doesn't even occur to people that actually you can do things in a different order in your life, you know, and people start changing things around. Plan out tomorrow's schedule when your brain is working best today. Things like that, right? don't wait till your brain is burned out for the day and then try to figure out what you're doing the next day. That's going to work against you. Those kinds of things.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely.
- Speaker #1
Let's keep going. Next question here. Kat, you've created kink and BDSM events that actively center the needs of neurodivergent folks. Can you talk about what that looks like in practice, like on how consent communication and sensory needs are handled?
- Speaker #0
So we have a lot of communication that we do up front. with our events, right? We, we have a negotiation form that we call MIT PISA, M-I-T-P-I-S-A. It's a shorthand form to help people make sure that they cover all the things they need to cover in the negotiations when they're going to engage in play. Um, and there's questions in there that are straight up, you know, we have a lot of neuro spicy folk in our, in our immediate fold. I mean, in our immediate King family. And, um, and so, you know, we have questions about, uh, senses, right like because people have different thresholds for sound, sight, smell, taste, right? How, you know, how to, how to find language, how to check in, you know, preparing in advance so that when something comes up, um, you know, we talk about, do you, what needs do you have that relate to any condition that you might have, including, you know, ADHD or any of these things, right? Uh, we have a safe word that we use that it's blue for medical, right? So if we talk about that you have a certain condition or something that might come up and that comes up while we're playing, then you just say blue and I can I can know that it's the thing that we already talked about.
- Speaker #1
Got it. I think that's really powerful. And I guess sort of critical or super important in those moments. I find myself just mentioning some of the basic things you listed there. With couples that I work with, with the neurodivergence as part of things like that, just considering in sexual encounters, sensory experiences is something that I find people.
- Speaker #0
have never they've never thought about that just that just the sensory part uh can change change relationships absolutely people don't realize that that uh neuro spicy folk have a different relationship to the five senses than uh what we consider traditional i mean i think like if we're real about it most people There's more, we have more differences than we do similarities. Like I know people who are sensitive to sound and smell, but not so much taste and taste. It's like, it's just important to give space for it, right. To allow, allow for the conversation to be had up front so that everybody knows where everybody's coming from.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. You talk about the sensory experiences. I firmly believe, and I think we're five to 10 years from this, but I think sensory experiences actually are one of the. greatest cause of the dysregulation amongst just people in general uh and i think we're just opening that up and uh and understanding it so much of people going home during covid and suddenly they change the work environments instead of the fluorescent lights in the office building the home and all that they became more productive um and when they could set their own you know environment which so much that is it's sensory uh they could have a dim lamp and that's all or you know things like that i think Really, in the healing worlds, we're seeing this more and more, so many different disciplines.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah. My partner, personal and in the King Collective, is also later diagnosed ADHD as well. He's got all that stuff that he's just been managing, not understanding why, but he's very sensitive to lighting. We're very particular about the type of light bulbs and how the lights are and all of that stuff. And that's just him managing his. brain right um it and and then we become aware of the fact that every what everyone needs some degree of of accommodation around the senses um yeah so so we'll see where the world goes with that but i'm i'm fully convinced that it's going
- Speaker #1
to be more and more in the center of conversations um and not not pathologizing just recognizing the differences that's the whole idea of neurodiversity there are differences the in ways our nervous systems music. experience the world. It's that simple. Let's keep going. Next question here. Final question. Your work often focuses on helping people get unstuck from trauma, grief, addiction, relationship struggles. How do you think neurodivergence intersects with these challenges and how do you support folks in navigating both?
- Speaker #0
Well, I think neurodivergence is one of those things that when you have a concern. that comes under the neurodivergent umbrella, it becomes the thing, it becomes one of the things that's underlying all of the other things, right? Like, you know, grief or addiction issues or, uh, trauma happens to a person who is, you know, all of the other things that are, that categorize who you are, right? Like my gender, my, uh, my ethnicity, my socioeconomic background, all of those things are things I can't change. They're just. It's part of my makeup, just like my neurodivergence, just like my ADHD. Right. So I have to I have to look at all of those other things in the context of these other things being what's true for me. Right. So I have to look when I look at my my trauma responses to things or I'm looking at, you know, my relationship struggles or any of those things that that just becomes part of the picture in order to. understand who I am and how I, what I need to navigate in the world around those things.
- Speaker #1
I love just what you laid out the intersectionality piece there and all the different identities that a person holds. It's underlying just how we show up just baseline. Right. Yeah, that was great. I appreciate that from everything we've talked about cat. Is there somewhere that you would like to return to, um, to talk a little bit further?
- Speaker #0
uh in in this conversation um i don't know i just think i mean i guess because kink is is my area right like i would just i would just suggest for people that if you go into spaces where um, neuro spicy things aren't necessarily being outwardly addressed or attended to feel free to speak into it, right? Like speak into what you need and want, like learn, learn, you know, what you need and want for yourself. Like, like what are your sensory needs and then, and, and be willing to show up in spaces and, and advocate for yourself. for what you need so that you can feel comfortable and you can feel safe and and and you can be in a space like neurodivergent people don't have to consider themselves other than right the other people who don't identify as neurodivergent you're part of and your needs are as much an important part of what
- Speaker #1
needs to happen as anyone's have you found uh and i don't know you know history of time within this community but have you found that the kink community is becoming more and more i don't know if accepting is the right word but accommodating or embracing of
- Speaker #0
neurodivergent needs or just recognizing that increasingly have you seen an evolution there absolutely i absolutely have i think you know part of the thing to keep in mind is uh kinky people in general are marginalized right So just as a group, we're sensitive to marginalization, right? And so, you know, there's a recognition of brotherhood or sisterhood in the neurodivergent community because we're just, we're people who are off the beaten path just in general. And so, you know, as we became aware that there were little tiny tweaks that could happen that could make neurodivergent folk more comfortable. making sure that the sound isn't too loud or making sure that we have quiet space. You know, a lot of a lot of spaces designate a quiet area where if you need to, you know, regulate your nervous system, if you get overstimulated, that there's a place available where you can go like we designate a couch where it's the off limits couch. So if someone's sitting on the couch, they are by definition telling you to leave them alone. They don't want you to come over and talk to them. They don't want you to come over and try to help them. They need the space to be able to regulate themselves before they're willing to re-engage. It's not a tough, it's not a big deal. It's not an impossible accommodation. It's just a matter of our having become aware of how something like that is helpful to some people.
- Speaker #1
You know what just jumped out to me, Kat? And I talk so much, I mean, when I think about my clinical work, I work with... little kids to, I don't know if I'd say older adults, but probably by definition, that makes me wrestle with my own age when I start like defining you that. But I think my caseload has, I have an over 60 year age range on my caseload right now, close to 70 year age range. And so truly wide range. And I talk so much to people about whether it's with a family or whoever else, the little accommodations are usually what's most impactful. It's the right small accommodation. So a kid in school, it's not about giving them a whole long list of all the things that just overwhelm somebody. It's that right little thing here and there. And that seems to be true in every scenario I've ever sort of talked to anybody about.
- Speaker #0
that's what you're describing as well it's just being mindful of those little things and they go really really far well i think a lot of it i mean and this this is this is true for i think all humans we we have a strong desire to be seen and heard right we have a strong desire to be able to to be seen as who we are and even a willingness for there to be you know a neuro divergence is in a lot of ways one of the more unseen disabilities to the degree that anybody wants to call it a disability or a condition. And so to at least have it be acknowledged and have some effort be made to offer what would be helpful makes a person feel seen and heard. And that goes a long way just to make everything better.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, that's really powerful. For people listening, and normally this is what I'll just ask somebody, say, hey, how can they find you? But would you mind sharing, is there, I believe there is a range of sort of offerings that you have where people could learn more, not just, hey, here's the content. But would you mind sharing a little bit of how people can learn more and contact?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, the easiest way to learn about what we do is to go to our website, not the, but kinkcollective.net, K-I-N-K collective.net, right? That's where everything is posted. If you filter through the website, you'll see our events, the descriptions, the education, you know, what we do, how our events run. um, et cetera, et cetera. You'll see in the resources section, the MIT P's, the guide that I talked about that you, anybody can just go get and use to, to negotiate their own interactions. And, um, you know, I mean, we're on social media as well, but, uh, the website is probably the most significant resource to, to understand who we are and what we do.
- Speaker #1
Okay. Got it. Um, Kat, I really appreciate you sharing that and all of that will be linked in the show notes without a doubt. So. Really, really, really appreciate you joining me. Let me ask you a few questions and just sort of sharing your experience. I think it's a really beautiful thing. So thank you so much.
- Speaker #0
Oh, well, thank you very much. Thanks for having me.
- Speaker #1
And again, I'm Sam Aaron. This has been Nerd or Virgin Spot. If you enjoyed this episode, please give us a like, a follow. If you know anybody who would benefit from hearing Kat share or learning more, please share the episode with them so they can learn. Thank you for being here.
