- Speaker #0
Well, I think one of the biggest things I've learned is that family should never work alone.
- Speaker #1
Hey guys, Sam here. Welcome to Nerd and Virgin Spot. Today's guest that you're going to hear from is Dr. Emily Levy. And I think you'll find a really insightful interview, conversation. She shares a lot about the power of collaboration, recognizing everybody's needs are different. And so we should... work with folks who have the expertise to support each of these needs. It's an insightful conversation. I had a lot of fun interviewing her, and I hope that you enjoy it as much as I did. Welcome to NeuroDivergent Spot. I'm your host, Sam Marion. My pronouns are he, him, and I am a multiply neurodivergent therapist, speaker, and creator. My work focuses on all things neurodiversity, but my particular interests are in autism, ADHD, learning differences, and learning disabilities. Today's guest is Dr. Emily Levy. But Emily, if you don't mind me calling you that, we'll be personal here. Please introduce yourself to the listeners.
- Speaker #0
Sure. Well, first off, thank you so much for having me on today. I'm really excited to be here. I am the founder and director of EBL Coaching, which is a one-on-one tutoring program for neurodivergent students. that specializes in using all research-based multisensory techniques to help students develop their reading, spelling, writing, math, and executive functioning skills. I received my undergraduate degree from Brown University. I then received my master's degree in special education, as well as my doctorate degree in general education.
- Speaker #1
Before we continue, I've got a quick disclaimer. This podcast is for information purposes only and should not be seen as a replacement for therapy, healthcare, or legal advice. Awesome. I'm really excited to hear more about some of these approaches because the little bit that I've learned leading up to this, I'm just excited about it. So, let's dive in with the first question that is simply, what has your journey with neurodivergence looked like?
- Speaker #0
Sure. Well, I have had somewhat of an interesting journey. I grew up in the field of special education. My mother was actually the founder of a school for students with learning disabilities down in South Florida, which is where I grew up. So I like to say it's sort of in my blood. However, I thought I was going to carve my own path and not follow in my mother's footsteps initially. Like I said, I went to Brown University. I then actually did two years of finance before quickly realizing that it wasn't my calling. I loved education. pivoted back, ended up, like I mentioned earlier, getting my master's degree in special education and my doctorate degree in education. I started personally working myself one-on-one with neurodivergent students and then eventually brought on specialists who specialize in different skills, different age levels, and eventually formed what is now EBL Coaching, where, as I mentioned earlier, we have a wonderful team of specialists who specialize in providing one-on-one tutoring to neurodivergent students.
- Speaker #1
That's a really fun journey, that effort to get away from the family story there.
- Speaker #0
Exactly.
- Speaker #1
Was there anything about finance that drew you that direction to start?
- Speaker #0
I think there was just a lot of momentum in that time. It was exciting to be in New York City, to be in this Wall Street world, which I thought would just be really kind of fun. And I thought... Well, I didn't really know where I was going to go with it, but I wanted to experience it. I will say, though, that even though it's completely different than education, I actually learned a lot from the experience of just kind of being comfortable with finances, with talking to people about money, with speaking to clients, developing relationships. So all of these skills that I actually still use today, I really think I learned from that experience in finance. You know, I...
- Speaker #1
This is totally going to put you on the spot even more. So I'll be vulnerable to lead in here. But I remember when I first went into private practice as a therapist, somebody saying to me that one of the hardest things to do was to ask people for money. And, you know, as a social worker, that wasn't part of my education. We didn't learn about finance, you know, any of that. I'm a little bit curious. Is that relatable at all as you shifted into kind of the coaching world you're in now?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely. And it is. I mean, at the end of the day, people have to pay for services. So at some point, you have to bring up money. And my approach is always... Let me lead with my expertise in education and how I'm going to help your child. And then secondary, by the way, this is what it's going to cost. And this is how payment works. I never like to lead with money. I never like when people call me and their first question is, how much do you charge? I want to know about your child. I want to know what their needs are. I want to make sure we can help them. And then we'll talk about the money piece. But it is something that probably graduate school should students, quite honestly, because and whatever field you're in. you have to get paid and you have to know how to have that conversation in the right way.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And so it's, it can be so uncomfortable, but yeah, I'm with you, the expertise and sort of, yeah, I know what I have to offer. It is sort of, and because I'm in the mental health field where I think across the board, healthcare, you know, is just under, under served in mental health care. And so the insurance, things like that, I've. feel very strongly that therapists deserve a living wage. Uh, and insurance does not agree with me on that. So I can't go that route, but, um, so I want to dive in though. Let's go. Let's learn more from you. Um, so next question, uh, creating an entire workbook series is no small task. And I've done a little bit of writing. I know this, uh, what was the spark that made you think I need to build this and what kept you going through the long process?
- Speaker #0
That's a great question. And then, um, I've written three different workbook series, really probably over the course of about 15 years. So it's been a long span. And it really came from the fact that I was trying to build curriculum. I was trying to find methods to use with our students. And I just didn't like what was out there. I didn't find they were user-friendly enough. I didn't find that they gave kids in a practice with each skill before moving on. And I didn't feel that they were clearly written in a way that was friendly to students. So it really just stemmed from... not finding what I liked out there and just slowly over time, realizing the skills that we needed to focus on and developing materials and manipulatives that go along with those workbooks to address those skill areas.
- Speaker #1
So in doing so, I'm a little bit curious about, because you referenced earlier and kind of your team, different specialists, what different specialties have you brought together? And I know we'll get into this a little bit more, but just sort of even going into the work of compiling a workbook. I'm curious who all had feedback in that or what expertise.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So in terms of the specialists that I brought on board, so we work with kids as young as the preschool level, and we actually go all the way up through the adult level. And within that, we have many different skills that we focus on. We work on reading both in terms of decoding words, reading fluency, reading comprehension, spelling, writing, math word problem solving, math computation solving. executive functioning, study skills. And so within that, we have specialists not only in a skill, like a reading specialist, but someone who might specialize in early childhood reading, or high-level math at the high school level, or specifically executive functioning. So when I identify what a child's needs are, I want to really be able to match them with someone who specializes in specifically what they need the most help with.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I I'm sure you see it as well, how often there's a lot of brushing with broad strokes, right? The supports or accommodations in the school, stuff like that. People get the long list and it's like, oh, here's all the things. But I find the right little nuance thing goes much farther than all the big long lists. And I wonder how much support is the same way people that understand this age group, this challenge really helps to get those nuances in place. I'm sure.
- Speaker #0
Definitely makes a big difference.
- Speaker #1
Let's keep going. Next question. You talk a lot about collaboration, right? That's what we're talking about, different specialists, but collaboration between tutors, families, and schools. On a personal level, what have you learned from the parents and kids you've worked with that surprised you or changed your perspective?
- Speaker #0
Well, I think one of the biggest things I've learned is that families should never work alone. They really should always work as a team, especially... course when there's a neurodivergent child, not just with the child's teacher, but also with any service providers, a speech therapist, a tutor, a physical therapist, a specialized tutor at school. Whoever is providing services to the child should really try to collaborate and work together as a team. And then if for some reason something isn't working or a child takes a turn south and they're struggling with the skill, all these minds can come together to figure out the best solution going forward. Again, I think really working as a team, collaborating with each other will always ultimately, in my opinion, be what's best for the child.
- Speaker #1
Do you ever see challenges with schools accepting feedback in collaboration with tutors as well?
- Speaker #0
You know, I think that some are more receptive than others to collaborating, to staying in touch, to communicating. But I think at the end of the day, most teachers in schools really want to do what's best for each child. I think sometimes they might feel overwhelmed or they have so much on their plate that to now add in this line of communication every month might be challenging. but I find that if parents approach it in the right way and they're gentle about it, they're not too pushy or overbearing. I think most schools and teachers, like I said, really want to ultimately help each child.
- Speaker #1
That's great. I wonder, do you ever see any, I hate to say competition, but if I'm interacting, giving feedback to a school, I'm a private therapist. I have different expertise than... the teachers right my background is not education i i've done some actually my i've done some some some some post-grad work uh there's more education based on on universal design for learning things like that and because that's there's not much to offer in the neurodivergent space in the social worker counseling fields um but i do you ever see it where teachers see somebody else is like oh you think you know more than me and we have the same expertise or so wait no, I'm going to do this my way. Do y'all ever see that?
- Speaker #0
Sometimes, yes. But again, I think a lot of it is approaching it the right way. Things like, I'm not a special education teacher, but this is what I'm noticing. This is what I've seen work. You may want to consider trying it if you feel it's appropriate for the child. So I think a lot of it is the language that you use, being respectful, not walking on their toes and really trying to work as a team. This is what I'm seeing that works. Let's see if maybe it can work in your setting as well.
- Speaker #1
Got it. So let's keep going. I'm really enjoying just going to go into the questions here. Last question before we deep dive. When you imagine one of your students years from now, maybe in college or pursuing their own passion, what do you hope they carry with them from their time working with you?
- Speaker #0
Well, Something that we really try to do is to be very positive with our students, to instill confidence in them, and to show them any progress that we see. When we start with them, if they're only able to write a sentence and then six months later they're able to write a paragraph or an essay, we want to show them that progress and really help them feel good about themselves. So I think if anything comes of it, really learning to feel good about themselves, to know that we all have strengths and weaknesses, no one's perfect, but Having that self-confidence is something that can really help them be successful in life.
- Speaker #1
I love that. I should ask this maybe before we even start recording, but how long have you been doing this work now?
- Speaker #0
I've been running EBL coaching for about 21 years now, which makes me feel old, but it's been a long time.
- Speaker #1
So do you... Have you had the opportunity to work with the child of somebody who you worked with when they were young? Sort of that full circle?
- Speaker #0
No, I haven't gotten that far. But I think also the nature of being in New York City, it's a little bit more transient. I don't think that as many grandparents that have kids that have then grandkids are still living in that same spot. So I think it could, some of it be geographic, or maybe I'm just not quite that old yet.
- Speaker #1
Fair, fair. Oh, okay. Yeah. I just sort of, um, thinking about that. Do you ever have people reach back out later on to say, Hey, you may not remember me, even though you probably do because we remember people, but to have those people reach out like, Hey, I just graduated college or I finished grad school and it started back when I was 10 and you're with you, or do you get to have those?
- Speaker #0
Yes. All the time. A lot of times it's from parents, but sometimes from students themselves, But yes, so many parents will read. reach back out. Just recently, I had a father reach out and say that we had helped his son when he was, I believe, in sixth, seventh grade, and he had just graduated Georgetown and was studying law. And I was like, it was just amazing to hear these stories. Another mother told me that her son is now a successful engineer who we worked with when he was in elementary school. So those stories are music to my ears. I love hearing them, and it's part of what drives me every day.
- Speaker #1
That's beautiful. I love that. So I'm glad that you get to have that. I'm glad you shared that with us. Um, cause yeah, that's so powerful. Um, Emily, let's go back and let's deep dive a little bit before we start recording. You sort of said you might want to deep dive a little more about collaboration. Um, and sort of that, and what you've learned parents and kids, is that still where you want to deep dive or is there a different place you'd want to go a little bit deeper now?
- Speaker #0
I mean, I'm flexible, but I can also talk more about my workbooks, the evolution of them, how they help kids, but I'm, I'm pretty flexible.
- Speaker #1
Um, if you're working this, um, okay, here's what I'd like to hear more about. If you're working with kids who have executive function challenges that are struggling, how do you get them to engage with the workbook?
- Speaker #0
Well, first off, it's always more than just a workbook. So a workbook might be a component of the lesson. So for example, I've written an Orton-Gillingham workbook series, which is the base, but there's all kinds of tools that go along with it. There's colored sand, magnetic tiles, audiovisual flashcards, mini whiteboards. So there's A lot of tools that go along with that really help engage the student. When it comes to executive functioning, again, it's not just about working out of a workbook. The workbook might contain strategies that we pull from. For example, one strategy that's in one of my executive functioning workbooks is a time management strategy, where we teach students that strategy called the ET versus the AT strategy, estimated time versus actual time. And so what that means is let's say they have an assignment to do for school, call it a one-sheet math worksheet. Well, we ask them, how much time do you think it's going to take to complete this worksheet? And they might say 10 minutes. So they're going to write down the ET, which is 10 minutes. And then we're going to keep an eye on the clock, and we're going to see how much time it actually takes and note that. And what we find is kids who have difficulties with time management, with executive functioning, there's often a big discrepancy between those two times initially. They're just not realistic with time. But as we practice the strategy and draw attention to those times, they start to have a better understanding of time, of how long things take to complete, and ultimately their time management skills improve. So we're taking a strategy that happens to be housed within this workbook, and we're applying it to other aspects of their life and other aspects of school. So that's kind of what I mean by that.
- Speaker #1
I would not do very well at that activity, if I'm just sort of really honest with you here. That is The discrepancy between how long I think something's going to take and how long it takes is frequently pretty significant. So I feel pretty, maybe pretty seen by that. But also I know like that is, it's so common. Do you, how do you, I see people, maybe it's more parents than it is necessarily kids. uh young people because i work people sort of all ages you know as well how do y'all navigate i feel as a shame or things like that when people come up and like i really thought i could do it this much time and it i couldn't or you know things like that how what's y'all's approach there well
- Speaker #0
again it's a matter of taking that positive spin so it's okay that your estimated time was far off from your actual time you're not alone in fact most people probably have that happen to them But let's just keep practicing the strategy. And you will see with time and with practice that that skill will start to improve, just like anything else. And sometimes with some kids, I'll compare it to a sport. When you play soccer, you're not an amazing soccer player the day that you set foot on the soccer field. But with time and with practice, you get better. And that's the same thing with learning, with learning a new technique, a new strategy. It's something you have to practice and implement. And eventually, you do get better over time.
- Speaker #1
Okay. You know, I want to, let me ask you this too, because the post-grad work that I did around neurodiversity and things like that was very much focused on executive functioning. And it was, the program I was in was based around Dr. Thomas Brown's model. He's out of Yale, right? Six categories of executive functions. And one of them is emotion regulation. And I completely reject that as an executive function. I will argue all day long. It is a prerequisite for executive functioning that if we are not like emotionally grounded, regulated, then we can't do a very great job of putting the right effort or focusing right here, things like that. Right. So are there particular, is there a particular model that y'all work off of or, you know, things like that where building into the planning out, you know, the time it needs. Anything to account for emotional regulation as well?
- Speaker #0
Well, I think first off, of course, you do have to be in the right mind space, so to speak, to absorb these strategies. So I think there certainly is a connection there. But I think, you know, within that, there's so many different elements of executive functioning and not every individual struggles with every element of executive functioning. I've worked with students who are super organized, but they have terrible time management skills, or certain aspects they're strong and certain aspects they're not. So what I find to be most effective is really trying to understand the child, understand the person, which aspects of executive functioning are they struggling with, and then really tackle those specifically. So almost like cherry picking the ones that they need help with and working on techniques to build those rather than just globally assuming that everyone has the same profile.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, I love that. Absolutely. I think about how many people I've worked with who task initiation was almost non-existent for them, but their ability to focus and put in the effort once they got going was super strong and had to tell parents things like that. I'm like, hey, if your kid is doing their work, don't interrupt to say, hey, what do you want for dinner? Let them be and ask that later. Because if you interrupt for that quick question, now they have to initiate the task again. Um, they can't just turn right back to it and things like that. It's a, yeah, the strengths and let's lean into that. Um, I love hearing that. It's been, it's been a minute. So I've worked with that, but I've, I've, there's one kid who's, whose face comes up right now of like, yeah, that, that, that one person. So, um, are there, are there other sort of tips or tricks you might would share that you find these couple little things go so far for people?
- Speaker #0
Well, I think there's so many, and I think it depends on the person. I think that, though, you know, from a parenting standpoint, when it comes to raising a neurodivergent child and their education, I think it's really important that no matter what, parents always advocate for their child. And they might think that they're at a great school, they have a great teacher, they have a great team, but they ultimately need to be in charge of making sure that everything is in place the way it should be. Because sometimes the school year might start out really strong, everything's going well. And then midway through, the child starts to struggle, but the parent might not find out about it until the end of the school year. So we want to just always be proactive as much as possible rather than reactive once those challenges start to kick in.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, the need to advocate, to have relationships with schools, with teachers. It's, I don't think that people... understand how valuable that can be. That, you know, just we think it's a traditional model. You send your kid out to school. But there are little ways, I think, to have a relationship with the school that's not about demanding things for your kid. You know, but, yeah, it can go so far. I didn't believe this. I'm talking about myself a lot today. I'm so sorry. When I was... in undergrad. I really had a hard time, but I was focused. I was trying to go back. I was out of school, went back to school, and I was taking a summer course. I really needed to bring in my GPA. I was looking ahead to grad school, stuff like that. And we covered a chapter a day. I have a reading disability, and a chapter a day in a textbook is really hard for me. And a chunk of the test would be from the text only. You couldn't get it in lecture. So we were there every day. And the teacher, we had a test every Friday, and I was in our office hours. you know, trying to get clarity on things, trying to understand. And I remember, um, when I turned mine in and she kind of said, look, if you haven't been in my office all summer, don't expect me to do anything special for you now. Pretty direct. Well, that's fair. I think that's fair. But when I handed her my Scantron, she's looking to me, said, Hey, go have lunch, come back. I'll have yours graded. Okay. Uh, and I came back to her office to see it graded and I knew what grade I needed to have an A and the 50 question final something like that i remember i missed one too many questions and so i had a 92.1 i don't know whatever it was well i was you know hundreds of a point below the cut line i had an a minus instead of an a and then when the grades got posted she had adjusted the cutoff to my score to the hundredth place to like 92.17 or something like that You will never convince me two decades later, whatever it is. You'll never convince me that it wasn't because of the relationship. She saw me working hard. She gave feedback where she could. I missed one question too many at some point during this, any of any question that I got wrong throughout the whole summer. If one more thing had been right, I would have had it on my own, but that effort and that relationship. And I tell people, I tell young people that story before they go to college frequently just to say, look, this is, and even in high school now. This is the importance of relationships. That same person I could have gone back to probably for a letter for grad school a year later, things like that. That's so important. We get the support we need. And then those little moments where you just need another little bump. They're there for you.
- Speaker #0
So absolutely.
- Speaker #1
So, all right. I really appreciate you being here. We'll wrap up here. However, you do some phenomenal work. And so people that are listening, if they would like to learn more from you or, or learn more about your services, how can they find you? Sure, the best place to find- And your books, by the way. Tell me that too.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, it's all on our website, which is eblcoaching.com. Best place to find out all that information. And then I have social media channels under EBL Coaching on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and X.
- Speaker #1
Got it. All right. Emily, thank you so much. Dr. Emily Levy, thank you for being here with us. Excited. Y'all go check her out. Learn more from her. Check out all the things that she and her team have to offer. I am Sam Marion. Thank you for being here on Nerd Divergent Spot. Give us a like, follow. And by the way, if you know anybody else who could benefit from learning from Dr. Levy and maybe from her services, please share this episode with them. Share her name with them so that others can benefit as well. Thank you all so much for being here.
