- Speaker #0
They're all the same project and I haven't finished any of them and I'm still working on all of them and I don't see them as particularly different.
- Speaker #1
Hey guys, Sam here and I'm just really excited about the episode that you're about to hear. Lincoln Stoller is a very independent person who has, as a result, really independent thoughts. I found this interview to be one that really made me think. And challenged me in some really exciting ways. And Lincoln just describes things in really unique ways. He uses metaphors. And, you know, he just shares really interesting experiences. So I hope you enjoyed as much as I did. I really, this was an interview I could have just kept going and talked to Lincoln for a long period of time. But I kept it somehow to a good length. But I hope you enjoy it. Let me know what you think. Welcome to Neurodivergent Spot. I'm your host, Sam Marion. My pronouns are he, him, and I am a mostly neurodivergent therapist, speaker, and creator. My work focuses on all things neurodiversity, but my particular interests are in autism, ADHD, learning differences, and learning disabilities. Today's guest is Lincoln Stoller. Lincoln, please introduce yourself to the listeners.
- Speaker #0
Hello. I am, uh... a therapist too. I'm kind of an adventurer and a researcher and a loner. Yeah, I'm a loner.
- Speaker #1
Before we continue, I've got a quick disclaimer. This podcast is for information purposes only and should not be seen as a replacement for therapy, healthcare, or legal advice. Lincoln, I'm excited that you're here. And I think our guests are going to learn that to say you're an adventurer maybe is an understatement. from what I've learned about you. So I'm really looking forward to our conversation today. But first question, we'll dive in. What has your journey with neurodivergence looked like?
- Speaker #0
I didn't know what it was. So it's a new word. It started with family and, of course, not understanding as a kid how different your family is and the surroundings that you're in, high school, and so forth. And then I got involved in mountaineering, and that's pretty divergent. And the people were divergent. Then it became sort of more obvious. And I appreciated these high-excitement sports. I'm now reading that high-excitement sports are for people who have trouble with expressing emotion. I think that's mistaken. People who really enjoy emotion enjoy high-risk sports. So That's what I do with my clients. I try to get them to express emotion. It's the big thing in my world. That and neurology and talk is cheap. Next.
- Speaker #1
I'm curious, what are some mountains that you've summited?
- Speaker #0
Well, actually, it's more interesting the mountains I didn't summit. I didn't go to Asia and I haven't done much in South America. But I did a lot in the American West and in Europe. So, you know, the Alps are quite... dramatic and uh so is alaska so alaska and uh the rocky mountains are really where i've spent most of my time down from mexico to to the arctic sea actually gotcha
- Speaker #1
uh years ago i did a little bit of mountaineering uh in uh in mexico some rock climbing mountaineering so i've done a couple multiple multi-pitch climbs and as far as mountaineering i'd summited Issa Siwato did not make the summit of Pico de Orizaba, which is the third highest peak in North America. I could feel each step, the altitude hitting me worse and worse. So I unfortunately did not make that summit.
- Speaker #0
Well, you know, they say mountaineering is a high risk sport, but it's not because it ranges from hiking to solo rock climbing without a rope. And you can do it safely or not. It's like crossing the street could be a high risk sport for some people. Definitely. So I think people don't understand. It's almost useless to use it as a metaphor, except in the popular image of struggle.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, I'll say at no point in time in my mountaineering, in terms of the bigger mountains experience, have I ever felt unsafe.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, that's fine. I could say the opposite. I could list the pages of times that I felt unsafe.
- Speaker #1
well what's I want to dive into that because that's my next question for you connects to it, is that you've lived through experiences that most people would never imagine. falling off mountains, avalanches, plane crashes, quicksand, and more. How have those survival stories shaped the way you think about resilience and mental health?
- Speaker #0
Well, I guess I incorporated into the idea that it's important to have big goals and strive, survive, and kind of regroup. And one of the things mountaineering teaches you is you don't have to get to the top because survival is the first important thing. So that's a question of resilience. And as mountaineers often say, I wish everybody else was committed as committed as I was, especially with regard to their personal relationships. So commitment is, I think, what I've learned. It's hard to. You know, insist on that with other people, but that's where I'm usually disappointed. Commitment. People aren't as committed to themselves as they should be.
- Speaker #1
Got it. Uh, that all makes sense to me. Um, and, and that's, I, I do wonder is, is that a little bit of, of where the metaphor doesn't fall off, right? Sort of the, um, people who understand mountaineering understand. um some elements but but people who don't still the the commitment i i gotta think if i was explaining to the average joe about climbing mount kilimanjaro anybody would understand it takes commitment in a pretty big way right well i think it's it applies to almost any uh
- Speaker #0
well it's different for a team sport because then you know blame and responsibility and credit are spread but in these individual sports I think it's better to call them individual sports where you make the decision, you make the commitment, you take the action, and you get the credit or the blame. That's really what attracted me to all these things. And mountaineering is just one of many things that put you in that position. So I would flip it and say that is a general statement about anybody's life. It just becomes more of a game when you put it in a...
- Speaker #1
container with a stopwatch and a start and an end and a goal and a finish than most of the times in our lives it doesn't have that clear container um you know i want to just kind of segue right into the next question with that you you describe your approach to therapy as radically independent and rooted in alter states dreams and the subconscious how does that differ from more traditional approaches and why do you think it matters
- Speaker #0
I think most people and therapies and approaches are intellectual because it's like we use our mind like we use our hands, got five fingers and a thumb. We use reason, we use logic or what presents itself as that, but it's usually not very reasonable or logical because we're mostly making inferences and jumping to conclusions. And it's a deception to think that that's a tool that fits all purposes. Because it's pretty well understood and most people appreciate. It's the emotions that drive what your priorities are. And then you use your regions and your intellect to solve problems. But if you don't have the right problems to begin with, you're obviously not going to get to the important answers. So the right problems emerge in your emotional world, which could be dreams and, you know, your feelings. So that's what I'm different. And I put more emphasis in that and I disparage to some extent talking, though we talk a lot, of course.
- Speaker #1
You know, we talk about things like, you know, dreams or, you know, subconscious things like that. I had a mentor who frequently would say the psyche knows what it needs. And this was primarily in the context of play therapy. But she would just say that the psyche knows what it needs. And sometimes as an encouragement to just sort of trust a person to let whatever needs come out, come out, whether it's in the sand tray or just give people the tools to let it come out and then try to sort through it. But give them those tools. The psyche knows what it needs.
- Speaker #0
I want to mention several of my mentors who were scientists made a similar bit of advice. One said, when you're doing work, don't read about what other people did first. Don't read. Don't do the research. Do your work first and then do the research. And the other one said, don't read too much. And the third guy who was his brother-in-law said, I never read. It distracts my mind. So, you know, you can get so intellectual as to confuse yourself, but you can also get so intellectual as to enter the dream world. And so it's not all that different from, you know, these high-risk sports. You take the responsibility for what you think. And if you can get a hold on that and engage in what your mind really wants you to see, your horizons can be much broader. That's kind of a shitty answer, but I'm trying to get to the beyond reason. Beyond reason is... where all the confusion of the unknown lies. And that's where, of course, you're going to learn new stuff. So you got to go there.
- Speaker #1
So in your work, you include psychedelics, hypnosis, dream work. They all show up in your practice. How do you help people prepare for and integrate those kinds of experiences so that they become growth rather than overwhelm?
- Speaker #0
That's up to the person. You know, I try to encourage people to go to their limit by. Annoying them, confusing them, contradicting them, sometimes gently, sometimes humorously, sometimes annoyingly. Like I had a client the other day who apologized too much, and I kind of yelled at him. I said, stop apologizing, you know, just take a point of view and tell me where it takes you. You know, I think it was Disraeli or somebody said, you know, every time you apologize for emotions. You're apologizing for the truth. So I want to hear what you feel. I don't want to hear what makes sense. You can write down in a book report. So how do I, you know, what your question was, how do I combine that? Well, you know what people will take. Like you said, you know, these metaphors of mountaineering don't apply to a lot of people. Not a lot of people have crashed an airplane and quicksand was really interesting. That's a rare thing. I was really surprised when I... stepped in quicksand um uh you know it's not like the cartoons but i have to work with people's own boundaries i take them to their own boundaries not mine they
- Speaker #1
got a lot of stories of course but they're mostly just entertainment so um i also want to tie in because you referenced this Across your life, you've been a scientist, adventurer, software architect, counselor. You've done a lot of things. So when you step back and look at the through line, what do you see as any sort of core purposes or guiding questions in your work?
- Speaker #0
No, they're all the same project. And I haven't finished any of them, and I'm still working on all of them. And I don't see them as particularly different. I mean, you use programming when you have a computer that can solve an answer. and You need to get exercise. And so typically, you know, I go for a walk every day in the woods with my computer and I sit out there and I type psychological essays and think about computer problems and try not to spend too much time on my clients' problems unless they're paying me. So it wraps up to the question of really what's purposeful? What makes a difference? Really, that's, you know, what in your life makes a difference? And that's what you should spend your short amount of time working on.
- Speaker #1
How do you help people determine what will make a difference in their life?
- Speaker #0
Oh, well, you know, follow the pain is probably the first rule. I'd say the problem isn't finding a problem. It's getting beyond the problem. So normally I work by considering a person's problem because they're paying me for a solution and then trying to broaden it, like trying to work my way out of the paper bag that they put themselves in and suggest, you know, what are the benefits of the pain? What are the benefits of the enemies? What are the demons trying to tell you? Where could you take this that you'd like to be for the rest of your life? and to ask questions that people are not asking, but in the context of their struggle. So to basically put new ideas in their head and encourage them to embrace the feelings that, you know, are sort of lurking under their bed and be supportive and say, you know, that's a good thing. Yeah. I mean, I should mention that I have escaped. trauma by not getting freaked out when I fell off mountains, crashed airplanes, and did all these things. And I don't know if that's a neurological thing, but it's really important when you encounter a crisis to be aware and not to fight, freeze, or faint. And in a sense, everybody's issues are traumatic. I don't think anybody's paid me to deal with an issue they don't care about. So to be aware, to be maximally aware is really important. Yeah. So if you're about to die, you know, don't think of it as dying. Think of it as, you know, the opportunity of a lifetime and maybe the last. You don't want to waste it.
- Speaker #1
Sure, sure. So I want to be a little bit mindful of time. We've touched on a lot here. Of the things we've touched on, is there anything you want to go back and explore a little bit deeper?
- Speaker #0
Oh, dear. You didn't put that on the question list, so I don't know. Deeper. Well, the thing that I always try to end with, it seems to end in a kind of a dud, like a firecracker that's wet. is that everybody should work on the important stuff. And this is why I say I'm radically independent, because I say everybody should be unsatisfied with what they're given and should consider their lives an obligation to move things forward. Your childhood, your parents, your job, your society. I mean, if you look at our world right now, it does not seem to be conceptually... very much more advanced than it was 2,000 years ago. I mean, if they had the same weapons 2,000 years ago, they'd be probably fighting the same wars to the same ends in the same places. And that's really kind of pathetic. I find it quite depressing. The dominant attitudes and feelings that are guiding the world today are not enlightened. I'm sorry. So I think it falls to each of us to, you know... create some light around us. And I don't give anybody an excuse. And if I piss you off and you fire me, well, I'm glad I did because you need to, you know, always up the game. And it's kind of like an admonition for everybody to be a martyr to your cause. You got to have a cause and you got to be committed and you have to have the courage to make a difference. I think that's, you know, that's my high-risk approach to life.
- Speaker #1
Nothing about that strikes me as being a dud or anything like that.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, but does it inspire people? That's the question. Yeah, it sounds great, but you know.
- Speaker #1
I don't know. And maybe I get fired for the same reasons from clients.
- Speaker #0
Oh, good. You and me.
- Speaker #1
I have days where I'll finish a session and I'm thinking, wow, I can't believe they just scheduled with me again after that. It doesn't happen a lot necessarily. And if people get really pissed off, usually they want to talk about it. If they quietly get upset by it, then they just, they'll schedule and they'll cancel it online later on. And I'll never hear from them again. You know, it varies a little bit, but if we're not going to try to, maybe this is where I get just, I don't know the right language that this would be, but, you know, overly optimistic. But if we all can brighten up. the world around us a little bit, it would change everything.
- Speaker #0
You know, the image I have of a therapist is not the sage and not the leader and not the advisor. It's the joker. And I don't mean like the Batman joker. I mean the court joker, the court jester. You know, I tell people, you're paying me to say stupid shit. Any idea that comes in my mind, hopefully, is divergent and different and off the wall. And I... You don't have to take me seriously, but I take up space and I, you know, shake my bells. and dance around and try to be entertaining.
- Speaker #1
You know, one of the places of privilege that I, I think it's a place of privilege that I hold in this world is my reputation seems to be as a therapist for people who've burned out in therapy or who need something different that it's, you know, someone came to me recently, they were saying, yeah, that I've seen several therapists and my psychiatrist said, it was time for me to call you.
- Speaker #0
Okay. Interesting.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. It's that like, I'm going to give you something a little bit different and good. Cause I don't want to be like everybody else. Cause you can get that anywhere. Let's try something different.
- Speaker #0
Well, we know we should add there a little education. Most psychology is created for a mass audience. I mean, historically there's a great need for it. And the purpose is mostly to get people on track. back on their feet, and to stop hitting each other. And most psychologists, most psychology programs, psychotherapy programs, I should say psychotherapy, are kind of normal in that regard. And if that's not enough for you, if you want to do more than just get on your feet and stop hitting your adversary, you need something that's out of the traditional norm. And you might have a hard time finding it if you're not looking for it. So, you know, people come, a lot of people come to me and say, oh, this is the first time I've come to a counselor. And they clearly are coming in the front door. And I kind of try to say to them, you know, is that the right door for you? Because you're going to get a different product that, you know, bargain basement than you will at, you know. Hall of Mirrors, Lincoln Stoller.
- Speaker #1
Yep. No, I get it. Everything about that makes sense to me. So, Lincoln, I appreciate you joining me. I appreciate your time. For people who have been listening and thought, wait, I need to learn more from this guy, how can they do it? How can they find you?
- Speaker #0
Well, they can find me at mindstrengthbalance.com. But I'd say that the books and blog are the easiest entryway. You know, this is like the sales funnel, the website, the books, the articles, the paid counseling sessions. So there, you know, there's I have a free book. First book I wrote, I put online as an HTML set of pages called The Learning Project, in which I interviewed 30 people about what makes their lives important from all walks of life at all ages. And I love that book. And those people were inspiring some eight.
- Speaker #1
old people and some very young people like teenagers as well as 90 year olds and uh if you go to the website and you look for uh you know books it's called the learning project um awesome every bit of that will be linked uh in the show notes so people listening can check it out there get there quickly and easily uh so thank you so much uh again for being here i appreciate it You've been here and your openness and all you're sharing today.
- Speaker #0
You're welcome. Thanks.
- Speaker #1
And to the listeners. Thank you. And to the listeners, I'm Sam Mary. Thank you for being here. Give us a follow. Share this with somebody who you think would enjoy it. Thank you.
