# 37 Igor Vamos - Détourner le réel pour fabriquer du souhaitable

Description

Igor Vamos est Professeur associé au Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute dans l'État de New York, aux États-Unis. Ses préoccupations critiques s'énoncent sous forme d'interventions artistiques dans les lieux publics et sur la toile, ainsi que sous forme de films expérimentaux qui revisitent les conventions du documentaire. Depuis le début des années 90, les interventions qu'il réalise au sein du groupe des Yes Men, qu'il a co-fondé avec Jacques Servin, sont régulièrement saluées par la critique. Dans l'entretien à suivre, Igor partage son souci de donner aux étudiants les moyens d'agir en citoyens engagés.

Entretien enregistré le 8 février 2023

Remerciements : agence Logarythm

Hébergé par Ausha. Visitez ausha.co/politique-de-confidentialite pour plus d'informations.

Transcription

Speaker #0
Welcome to Remarkable, a podcast proposed by Thomas Gauthier, professor at EM Lyon Business School and head of the Carbon 4 Chair, Strategy in Anthropocene. Anthropocene is this new geological era in which humanity is confronted for the first time in its history at the planetary limit. To better understand the challenges of this new era, Thomas goes to meet those who are incessantly exploring the future and who are remembering history to build a habitable world from today. Igor Vamos is an associate professor at the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in the state of New York, in the United States. His critical concerns are expressed in the form of artistic interventions in public places and on the web, as well as in the form of experimental films who revisits the documentary's conventions. Since the beginning of the 90s, the interventions he performs within the Yes Men group that he co-founded with Jacques Servin are regularly praised by critics. In the following interview, Igor shares his concern to give students the means to act as committed citizens.
Speaker #1
Hi Igor.
Speaker #2
Hello Thomas.
Speaker #1
So here you are, you're looking at the Oracle and to the questions that you ask her about the future, she will answer and she will answer right every time. Can you please tell us what is the first question you would like to ask the Oracle?
Speaker #2
Yes. Oracle, how did we or do we solve the climate crisis? So that's it. I just want to know how we fix the problem.
Speaker #1
Well, it sounds like you're starting with an overarching, very tense question to the Oracle, climate crisis. Do you think that everyone around the planet agrees that there is such a thing as a climate crisis? Have you found people that may have different views on this crisis?
Speaker #2
Yeah, clearly not everybody agrees, but that doesn't mean that their opinion matters. I mean It's, uh, I, I think that there's, you know, people, there's a lot of people who, uh, think that there's a vast conspiracy of, um, child molesters who are running the United States government right now, but they're not necessarily people we should listen to either. Um, so, uh, although there are, there are problems with the government. So, yeah, I think that, uh, I do think that it's kind of an umbrella problem. that we're facing right now. That's the problem that's overarching that if we can't address, then all the other problems are tied to it. And I think that this is why I asked the Oracle how to solve this problem or how we did solve this problem because it's about the future. And I like to think that the future isn't yet determined. And so by asking the Oracle a question about how we did it, maybe the Oracle will tell us the path to get there. there. It's kind of a prefigurative gesture, a gesture that projects a little bit more responsibility on the oracle than maybe the oracle wants to have. But that's, yeah, that's the reason I want to know is that I think it does impact so many different places in so many different ways. And disproportionately, I think that, you know, it's obviously impacting people in some places that know about it really well right now. I've been to some places where the climate has changed quite dramatic. dramatically as a result of climate change and people are really living on the edge. In the second film, no, our third film, I guess, of The Yes Men, we go and visit people in a very dry place in northern Uganda. And they're very much seeing the impact of climate change. They're pastoralists. And although climate change has been happening for thousands of years, and especially in places where desertification has happened, in places like the Indian subcontinent and North Africa. That's a place where it's accelerated dramatically in recent years. And so we saw people were adapting, people were changing. And there's places where they're well-equipped to adapt and places where they're not. So I do think it's something that's going to put pressure on all kinds of things. Maybe Northern Europe has a better chance of... weathering it well, but I think we're all in it together as far as the world goes. So it's a big question for me.
Speaker #1
It is a big question. And maybe just to follow your thoughts here, you've briefly made a reference to one of the movies by the Yes Men. Part of your work is about, as I think you call it, identity correction. You've also made reference here to the systemic nature of climate crisis and, you know, climate challenges. where do you see let's say powerful places in the system to to act you know i think uh muhammad ali would say you know a sting like a bee so where where would it make sense to sting like a bee where would perhaps identity correction be much needed these days yeah that's a good question you
Speaker #2
know people are becoming disillusioned with capitalism as it it currently functions because we have been seeing it not work. to do some of the things that we wanted to do and particularly in relation to being able to regulate in ways that would address the climate crisis effectively you know the the fact that we have this big or small depending on how you look at it planet um and now it's pretty easy for multinationals to get around regulations domestic regulations in individual countries by going abroad. I mean, that's been that's become a really huge problem for how we deal with uh with the climate and obviously things like the coalition of the parties the cop is trying to fix it but um you know i think that the the that there's hard ways that's it's a very difficult problem and so i think that some of the pressure points are to do with like corporate power what corporations are able to do and international frameworks and how they are. implemented and enforced. So that's, I mean, that's my lay person's kind of quite answer. But at the same time, there's all kinds of smaller, you know, interventions that can be done in the minds of all of us, you know, because we, one of the things that we do with the Yes Men is we're kind of like somebody who practices judo and uses the weight of the opponent to let them fall, you know, you put out your foot at the right moment, you trip. them you you you you try to reveal something about them because they're so big and clumsy that it gives you the uh the ability to maneuver in a way that that work that that works better i think that we we do this sort of sleight of hand or this kind of judo move ideally in the minds of people who otherwise don't have time to think too much about other anything other than their daily life because I think that that's I mean, what we end up being faced with now is all of these problems becoming not invisible, but harder to care about in light of having to just take care of day-to-day activities. And so we've relied on trying to get into people's heads through the media and creating these publicity stunts that target specific bad actors. So for example, a company like Shell that this year... has record profits, despite the fact that people are unable to pay their gas bills. And despite the fact that we have this not just energy crisis, but massive environmental crisis, those are the kinds of players that we would target to, in order to reveal something about what's wrong with the system and to keep reminding people of that. Because in theory, at least in the countries where we have a representative democracy uh in an informed public should be able to change the laws and make a difference and so that's the that's the premise that we work on we're kind of like publicists for uh activist campaigns that are trying to create change that we see as as positive you know reducing inequality reducing pollution solving problems that are facing groups on Let's say facing... subaltern or less powerful, powerful groups of people.
Speaker #1
So we've started with, again, probably one of the most daunting questions that we could ask to the Oracle. Let's imagine that you can show yourself again in front of the Oracle and ask her a second question. What would that be now?
Speaker #2
All my questions, unfortunately, are these sort of prefigurative questions where the Oracle is going to give us an answer to a problem. So I'd say that another one is... How did we solve iniquity and inequality? And did we have to abandon capitalism to get there? That's my question for the Oracle.
Speaker #1
Well, again, that is yet another overarching question. It sounds like also based upon what we discussed already that there might be connections. At least according to me, there are deep connections between the climate situation and capitalism and inequalities. is the question I would ask back at you. There is... Are we seeing signs already? Are you seeing signs in your practice, in the places, in the organizations where you intervene that inequalities are reaching an unsustainable level? Do we see early signals of, let's say, social unrest having, you know, an even higher probability of getting all of us fired from the surface of Earth? Higher probability than climate crisis itself? Do we see social unrest being an even more dire issue than climate change?
Speaker #2
Well, I think they're interrelated. You know, there's a lot of people who are calling, instead of using the phrase Anthropocene, they've started to use the phrase Capitalocene to describe this era, the current era that we're in. And, you know, Anthropocene was referring to human or anthropogenic climate change. That's what they... mean to refer to with that but by instead placing the responsibility of the change on capitalism and with its requirements for you know growth it creates uh it's meant to refer to the sort of causal agent right the reason why we have this problem in the first place why we we can't control climate change why it's it's run away because the system that we are operating on the operating system itself is privileging things that are not important for the future of human life, but rather for the future of just enriching a few people. And yeah, I do think that in the last decade, especially, things have gotten pretty crazy and we're seeing it. I mean, it's dramatic in places like where I'm from, my hometown in upstate New York, which is not New York City, but it's upstate New York. And now, even in the last few years. Rents have gone up so high that there's really nobody who's a young person now who doesn't have money, who can actually work a regular job and buy property. So that idea of the American dream that's tied to sort of capitalism is completely crumbling because people are in the situation in the United States of living. in a kind of perpetual poverty or seeing that happen. And that's, I mean, that's been the case for a lot of countries around the world where you've seen people, seen some kind of, you know, very big economic growth, but it doesn't necessarily impact the majority of people. We just did a project about Adidas, and I was kind of amazed to find out that, even though I shouldn't have been amazed, I know this happens, but... The workers that we were talking to in Cambodia who are working in the Adidas assembly lines just got a new minimum wage increase that brings their wages up to almost $8 a day. Now, $8 a day, the logic that we have up here is we say, well, that buys you a lot down there, but it actually doesn't buy you very much at all. Even Cambodia is way more expensive than it. than it was a few years ago. And so these people who are really living at a subsistence level, but working six days a week, you know, are, it's, it's just an unsustainable system globally and locally, I think. And I think, I think it is showing up. And I think there are examples of unrest, although I haven't been keeping track of, of them recently. So I'm not, you know. I'm not sure, but in the U.S., things got really crazy during the last elections, and I don't think that it's all just to blame on people following a crazy leader and being enthralled by fascism or by a kind of a brand of fascism. I think it's also to do with people feeling disenfranchised. That's why they want to make America great again, because it's like it doesn't feel that great anymore.
Speaker #1
So, you know, regarding alternatives to capitalism, I think that if we look back at the end of the 1960s, beginning of the 1970s, there were attempts at theorizing and experimenting alternatives to capitalism, both in the United States. but also elsewhere in Europe, for instance. This is the time when the environmentalist movement really came together. This is the time when many critiques were very carefully developed against productivity, industrial civilization. Now, those criticisms, in a way, got swept away by growth or whatever else took place in the last 50 years. Are there new situations that are happening today? Or do we see signs? Do you see signs also perhaps through your interventions of elaborate alternatives? Or was Margaret Thatcher right in saying that there is no alternative?
Speaker #2
I mean, I think that that's a good place to start because I think Margaret Thatcher and Rahm Eregin and, you know, the sort of Friedmanites who kind of set the neoliberal agenda. that were still on that same course are definitely, that was the turning point, I think. It defines most of my life because I was born in 1968, but it seems like going exactly in the wrong direction from where things were at that moment. But I think that all throughout, there have been many experiments about how to do it differently. Unfortunately, a lot of these experiments are up against the forces of capitalism that have a very fluid and powerful way of running around, let's say, these obstacles. It's sort of like in a river during a flood. There's little high points in the river that don't get submerged. but for the most thing things get, for the most part, things just get swept away by the force of the water. And to me, it feels very much like that. And then if the water recedes, which I think it does at times, you know, there's a lot of what was there has been swept away and then it has to be rebuilt again. So I see it as kind of like a flood of ideology and capital that has kind of submerged a lot of good experiments that are happening. Although the ideas are still there. And I think history shows that we can, you know, humans can turn on a dime, can change direction really quickly when there's a will to do it. And so it's sort of a tipping point, you know? And so I think that there's a good chance that things could shift rather quickly. I mean, there's been a bunch of times in my life when it seemed like it would and then it didn't. So we'll see if that happens. I mean, when Obama was elected to be president in the US, I was surprised that, well, I wasn't exactly surprised, but I was upset that there wasn't more change implemented more quickly. Because by then, the problems that we had really been identifying, or a lot of people I think had identified, especially scientists, were very clear. you know there was no more lack of focus about what the issues were both in terms of runaway inequality and things like climate change and environmental degradation plastics all of this crap you know that's really a huge problem for the earth um and for people and non-people all the you know all that stuff was really known at that point and still very little happened And a lot of the same neoliberal rules were followed. I think, though, that there's, yeah, where do we look to the examples? I don't know. I'd be curious to hear from you about that, where the best examples are for, you know, what we should try to do on a larger scale. There's a lot of great experiments that are happening now with things like universal basic income and, you know, methods, tactics. So I'd like to, yeah, I don't know. I'm not keeping a list though.
Speaker #1
We should keep searching, I guess. Let's ask one final question to the Oracle. And then I think that she deserves some rest, I guess. What would be that third and final question you would like to ask her?
Speaker #2
Yes, it is. How is it that we came to learn how to dance? so well and make love so much. in the future.
Speaker #1
All right. Where is that one coming from, Igor? I need some explanation, I guess.
Speaker #2
Oh, I just feel like if we're going to ask, as long as we've got these two sort of more dire, serious questions about how we get to where we're going. And the second one is really like, how do we fix capitalism or how do we replace it? And the first one is really, how do we just deal with the environment? How do we... make a sustainable future. So then the third one is like, how do we have joy? How do we have joy in our lives as people on the earth? And, uh, and I figure that maximizing that as expressed through dancing and making love makes sense. So I'm, that's part of the three questions that I have for the Oracle, because I think that, um, that also like, I think that our joy and satisfaction and experience of being human. is perhaps an important part of we'll also make the change we need to see.
Speaker #1
This third question, I think that at least the way that I think about it is going back to your question number two regarding capitalism. Capitalism uses as an engine hope and it uses as an engine the prospect for a brighter future. The future is supposed to be better than the present. And I think your third question... question is asking the oracle and of course us what exactly matters in life. It's asking human beings really to rethink their value systems or rethink what brings joy to them and perhaps ending up recognizing that once our basic needs are satisfied, most joy in life doesn't come with a price tag. It's free. It's perhaps... enjoying, you know, spare time, it's enjoying dancing, it's enjoying making love, it's enjoying all these things that are not monetized as such in capitalism. And you're in the way asking the oracle, are we going to be able to go through a anthropological reconfiguration or some such?
Speaker #2
Yes, well said. That explains it much better.
Speaker #1
But I will be thinking about your question to the oracle. I like it. I think this one is going to be a new reference point in this podcast. The oracle is now out of duty. Let's look in the rear view mirror. Can you please start by bringing back one time in history, one date, one historical process that you think we shall have in mind while thinking about the present, while... orienting ourselves in the present what can history teach us or how can history be of of use to us in this rather interesting time that's a good question i mean i think that there's a number of times i'm gonna go i
Speaker #2
guess for the beginning to start this out i might go to uh just let's take a period the the decade of the the the last years of um of the rule of of kings and queens in in europe in the in the late 1700s um i mean at least from large parts of europe um i i think that why not the french revolution why not go for something like that that this uh i mean i think that that the idea that the monarchy would fall was you know centuries in the making people talked about it but it probably seemed really unbelievable until it actually was happening. And I think that this is the reason why I look at a thing like that is that it's a massive change that took a very long time to build the will for and to build the, not the will, but to build the momentum to make it actually happen and to change the system. But then when it actually happened, it happened very quickly. It was like, you know, the mechanisms that replaced the power of the monarchy. were put into place rather quickly. And then it went through a whole bunch of different periods and upheavals and change. But to me, I see that as a hopeful thing because I think, oh, okay, yeah, we have this fairly new system, this capitalism that seems so pervasive and so strong that we can't imagine anything else really existing right now replacing it. But I also think that that's probably the... The same thing that one would have said if you're in the 1770s living somewhere in France. It just would have seemed impossible that there would be a shift. So that's why I've just chosen that randomly of all the times in history. I'm sure there's better examples of watershed moments, but that's what I'm thinking is like, what are those key watershed moments? And then another event in history, should I go for number two already? Well,
Speaker #1
I was just going to say connecting your first historical landmark with the work of the Yes Men. And so... This first historical landmark is about turning the unthinkable into the thinkable and perhaps even into the desirable. Is the job of the yes-man somewhere in that arena of, you know, changing the boundaries between the unthinkable, the thinkable? Do you see yourself as displacing those boundaries in a way?
Speaker #2
Yes. And in fact, I would say that we fit into a long lineage of Trickster. operatives, people who think like the trickster archetypes that we have from all of our mytho histories. Every culture has these characters, sometimes myths, sometimes legends, sometimes based on real people. And they did things that were sneaky and surprising in order to reveal something about the nature of that culture that otherwise would be sort of invisible. You know, so they crossed. boundaries, they change shapes, and they do create the possibility sometimes of dreaming where it otherwise is a little bit difficult. So the types of tactics that we use is we impersonate somebody in power and we might make an announcement that they're going to do something really good that nobody expects that they're going to do. One example is Dow Chemical, which bought Union Carbide, which caused the largest... industrial accident in history in Bhopal. So they were responsible for the Bhopal catastrophe. And when Dow Chemical bought Union Carbide, nobody expected that the company would ever compensate the victims and clean up the plant site, but that's what they announced that they were going to do, or at least that's what we announced for them. And so that idea that they could do that because they had the money and the capacity and the knowledge to do it was meant to be kind of liberating and what meant to be liberating. ask people, oh yeah, why don't they do that? If a company does buy, if a company is capable of fixing a problem they've caused, then why don't they simply do it? But we had to get there to make that announcement by using this kind of mischief and trickery that's part of what I would call this way of thinking as a trickster. And actually, most of the tactics of non-violent civil disobedience also fit into that category of the trickster. So you think about somebody like the civil rights activist, like Rosa Parks, not giving up her seat on the bus. Well, she's actually doing something that's illegal, right? By not giving up her seat on the bus, she's breaking the law. So she's going against the rules that have been set up in that dominant culture at the time. She's crossing a boundary and she's doing it in a very clever way. so that people see the injustice where they otherwise wouldn't maybe see it. It's making the invisible more visible. Obviously, a lot of people knew that it was totally unjust. But for some people, it hadn't occurred to them until they saw the right person doing the right gesture at the right time, a symbolic action that creates a story that people can retell about the injustice. And so that's kind of what we do. We work in those traditions as tricksters to try to amplify stories of injustice and do it in a way that, in the best case scenario, makes us think about the possibility of it actually happening. Because we get used to the idea that things are unfixable, that it's just the way things are, that the natural state of the world is what we have with capitalism right now. And that's a dangerous belief, but it's one that creeps in no matter what. And you have to constantly break it and remind yourself that this phase of civilization is actually fairly unique. You know, like there were many, many before it where the priorities were different. And it wasn't just about making money, capitalism and growth, you know, or capital and growth or profit and growth, however you want to describe it.
Speaker #1
Well, let's look at the... Rear view mirror. Again, I think you had another time from history to bring into the discussion. What would that be?
Speaker #2
Okay, so one other time is...
Speaker #0
The fall of the Roman Empire. And I know that that's not like a time in history. It happened over a long time. But the reason I like that one is that it ties into this, the question of environmental crisis. I mean, we can look at Easter Island or something as well. But that idea, you know, using up finite resources of deforestation, of the impacts of an unsustainable system on something that seemed huge and impossible, too big to fail, something that seemed like it would never collapse because it was so strong and so powerful. And the role of deforestation and overgrazing, that's been studied for the end of the Roman Empire in parts of Italy and other parts of Europe as well, and has been determined to have played a key role. And so I think looking at that as kind of a a precursor to what we're facing now. And also as part of a realization that this current civilization is one that could collapse. And we'd rather it be better to change it in ways that made the collapse less painful, you know, and less abrupt. I guess, yeah, I chose the Roman Empire there, but I could also choose something that's like a smaller, more kind of better example in some ways like an Easter. Easter Island kind of thing, you know, which maybe is a smaller sample group, but easier to get your head around the facts of the environmental collapse there that really caused that to happen. So, you know, and Easter Island's a good example because they just kept building bigger and bigger moai, those crazy heads, you know, it's like, oh, things are falling apart. We just need a big builder, big, big, build bigger, build more. We look at it now and say, that's insane, but isn't that kind of what we're doing now? It's just like we keep building bigger and more too.
Speaker #1
This example of yours brings an idea. I don't know if that would ever be a project for the ESMEN or whatnot, but you know how companies these days are fascinated with learning expeditions or learning journeys. You go in the most innovative places in the world, be it... Silicon Valley, be it Israel, be it any other place where innovation is at its highest. And you go there to, in a way, get a glimpse of the future. So here's an idea. What about a tour operator that would create learning expeditions for business leaders going to the Easter Island, going to Rome, talking with archaeologists? And getting them to get a glimpse of the future, which is civilizational collapse, if there is no limit put to growth, to systemic complexity, to the desire to build higher, build stronger. I wonder whether we've just identified a new business, really.
Speaker #0
Yeah, there's definitely some bespoke tourist ventures there ready for.
Speaker #1
the very rich we can work on that after this well would you like to bring um any other time from from history into the conversation so we've touched on two already let's say that you have one third card that you can pull out yes so the third is the activating one um
Speaker #0
and i already brought up the case of the civil rights movement in the united states which is clearly ongoing but But, uh... Just to give an example, the civil rights movement had a real watershed moment in 1962, I think it was, when they signed this thing called the Civil Rights Agreement. But I think that if you had asked people who are advocating for changing of the laws in the United States, in the previous couple decades, if they were making any progress, they would say no. And we've talked to a bunch of people who were part of the civil rights movement in the 50s and 1940s who felt like it was just a string of failures until, of course, the civil rights bill was signed. I guess it's 1964, I think. Yeah. And so often I think that mass movements and movements for, um, change as they're expressed in the last hundred years, you know, whether it's, uh, you know, movements to, uh, let's say for independence movements, like in the case of India, movements that are characterized by civil disobedience, those kinds of tactics, they usually feel like they're not working until they suddenly do, right? So it's like a series of failures, right? Like just to take Martin Luther King, for example, he was arrested 37 times doing civil disobedience. It wasn't like... And each time he was arrested and thrown in jail, it wasn't like a success. You know, there was a lot of things that seemed like failures, but it was the accumulation of a vast number of failures by a vast number of people working together that resulted in success. You know, and so I think that this is important to look at the long look at the long game. And as far as it goes with... you know, activism and trying to create change, it's important not to get too discouraged by what seems like all the failures, you know, because I mean, right now, if you talk to a Greta Thunberg or something, who's like the star of climate activism, I bet she on some level feels like there's a string of failures. You know, she had a huge success with the school strike. but ultimately it's a failure that nothing has changed. She's now been arrested a whole bunch of times and she continues to do it. But again, a series of failures. However, there are incremental changes and eventually there has to be that big success that I asked the Oracle about earlier because there is really no alternative to that. Like we don't actually have a choice. We have to succeed because otherwise... failure is unthinkable and excusable in the case of the global calamity that will come.
Speaker #1
Well, speaking about interventions and speaking about activism and successes and failure, that I think leads us quite nicely into the third and final part of this interview. So we've talked futures, we've talked pasts, let's now talk present. Can you please tell us and you've done that here and there during the conversation, please tell us about the many ways in which you intervene in the world. So you've got like a wild card. You can just share with us those bits and pieces of your practices.
Speaker #0
Sure. So usually we work with an activist group that has a campaign. So for example, it could be a big group, big organization like a Greenpeace, or it could be a you know, just a smaller ragtag group of people like we work with around the Occupy Wall Street years, you know, different, let's call it activist cells who have specific goals and campaigns. And we try to create media spectacles that get attention for their campaigns at critical moments when they need more attention in order to, let's say, change enough people's minds, or not change their minds, but get the... momentum to push for a change in legislation or to um you know to to build a movement in a way that will make it possible to uh get changes in government in government or in laws or in some cases force a company to do something different to just make it unprofitable for them to keep doing something bad. So... We've been doing this for about 25 years. And the way that we work is, it's kind of like if you think about an ad agency, you know, it's just an ad agency that's willing to use very strange tactics because we don't have the budget of an ad agency. Whatever we can do to outsmart the opponents and create a funny story or a meaningful or poetic story. that will be covered in the media and shared by people on social media. The form that those things take has ended up being, for us, mainly two different modes. One is to do things that are satirical. So this is in the tradition of Rabelais or Jonathan Swift's modest proposal where He had suggested that the Irish, I mean, he published a pamphlet suggesting the Irish solve the hunger problem by eating their babies. And this was presented as. a solution that would be accepted by the state at the time. And it was a commentary, you know, but it's fitting within the logic that already exists. Like if the state is willing to starve the Irish by denying them food that's being exported from the country because, you know, under armed guard, because it's a profit-making operation. If it's willing to participate in that kind of genocide, then why not have them eat their own children? You know, so that's the modest proposal. And so that's one option because satire is very fun. And we like to sometimes see the look on people's faces when a company like Halliburton goes to a conference and announces that they have a solution to climate change. And their solution is these giant inflatable bubble suits. that they'll sell for a lot of money and rich people can wear in order to avoid the impacts of a flood or a weather disaster. So, you know, seeing the looks on the faces of the, in that case, it was lawyers in the audience of the conference. It was a catastrophic risk conference from the insurance industry. And so seeing these insurance industry lawyers like take Again, This Halliburton proposal for this dystopic future was very funny. And so we made that into a scene in a movie that we released. So that's one version. But then the other version is to use our temporary identity as somebody rich and powerful or a company that's powerful in order to announce a utopian vision of the future. So that. we don't actually have a name for that it's not really satire it's uh you know because satire involves this sort of exaggeration of something that's already there um i wanted to come up with a name for it but i still haven't figured out what the name would be for this practice but it basically is about announcing the world that you like to see but saying it from a place of authority or from a place of remorse. So in the court, in the in the case of the Dow chemical announcement that I mentioned, you can imagine the executives of Dow feeling sorry for the victims of the Bhopal catastrophe and, yeah, actually deciding to do the right thing, which meant compensating them for their losses, attending to their health needs, cleaning up the mess that they left behind. And so it takes something that's kind of a natural response to seeing people suffer. and makes it seem real for a moment. But in that moment when it seems real, when the announcement goes out as a real thing in the news, everybody wants to believe it. And then when you find out it's fake, you wonder why it's not happening. And so that becomes more powerful in a way. This prefigurative gesture, this utopian announcement is more powerful, we find, but sometimes not quite as fun. as the kind of fanciful thinking you can do when you're trying to impersonate or embody a really bad entity.
Speaker #1
With the experience that you've just shared, I know that one question that I'm going to get from listeners is, all right, now we would like to do something with the yes-men or somehow employ their tactics or contribute to their tactics. How does that work if anyone among the listeners or anyone coming across this podcast has an interest in doing something?
Speaker #0
People can connect to us directly through our website at www.theyesmen.org. And there are little buttons on there for being able to communicate with us or being able to consult with us. Uh, we do things like, you know, we travel around and talk as well about what we've done in the past. Um, and we do these workshops and collaborations for activist groups. So just, uh, drop us a line, send us an email.
Speaker #1
How can I be sure that I am writing to the real yes men though? Any risk of you being impersonated? Has this happened?
Speaker #0
Uh, it has strangely not happened. And we have had... Not that I can remember. We've been ambushed a few times, but it wasn't by anyone impersonating us. It could happen, but so far... Nothing.
Speaker #1
All right. Well, it's been almost an hour. Thank you so much, Igor, for all the insights that you shared and the questions you asked. I do hope that our path will cross again. Thank you so much.
Speaker #0
I hope so, too. Thank you so much as well. And thanks for this podcast. I'll listen to future episodes.
Speaker #2
Merci d'avoir écouté ce nouvel épisode de Remarquable. L'ensemble des épisodes est disponible sur le site atelier, au singulier, desfuturs, au pluriel, .org. Pour ne rien rater des prochains, abonnez-vous, n'hésitez pas à laisser une note et à parler du podcast autour de vous. A bientôt !

Description

Entretien enregistré le 8 février 2023

Remerciements : agence Logarythm

Hébergé par Ausha. Visitez ausha.co/politique-de-confidentialite pour plus d'informations.

Transcription

Speaker #0
Welcome to Remarkable, a podcast proposed by Thomas Gauthier, professor at EM Lyon Business School and head of the Carbon 4 Chair, Strategy in Anthropocene. Anthropocene is this new geological era in which humanity is confronted for the first time in its history at the planetary limit. To better understand the challenges of this new era, Thomas goes to meet those who are incessantly exploring the future and who are remembering history to build a habitable world from today. Igor Vamos is an associate professor at the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in the state of New York, in the United States. His critical concerns are expressed in the form of artistic interventions in public places and on the web, as well as in the form of experimental films who revisits the documentary's conventions. Since the beginning of the 90s, the interventions he performs within the Yes Men group that he co-founded with Jacques Servin are regularly praised by critics. In the following interview, Igor shares his concern to give students the means to act as committed citizens.
Speaker #1
Hi Igor.
Speaker #2
Hello Thomas.
Speaker #1
So here you are, you're looking at the Oracle and to the questions that you ask her about the future, she will answer and she will answer right every time. Can you please tell us what is the first question you would like to ask the Oracle?
Speaker #2
Yes. Oracle, how did we or do we solve the climate crisis? So that's it. I just want to know how we fix the problem.
Speaker #1
Well, it sounds like you're starting with an overarching, very tense question to the Oracle, climate crisis. Do you think that everyone around the planet agrees that there is such a thing as a climate crisis? Have you found people that may have different views on this crisis?
Speaker #2
Yeah, clearly not everybody agrees, but that doesn't mean that their opinion matters. I mean It's, uh, I, I think that there's, you know, people, there's a lot of people who, uh, think that there's a vast conspiracy of, um, child molesters who are running the United States government right now, but they're not necessarily people we should listen to either. Um, so, uh, although there are, there are problems with the government. So, yeah, I think that, uh, I do think that it's kind of an umbrella problem. that we're facing right now. That's the problem that's overarching that if we can't address, then all the other problems are tied to it. And I think that this is why I asked the Oracle how to solve this problem or how we did solve this problem because it's about the future. And I like to think that the future isn't yet determined. And so by asking the Oracle a question about how we did it, maybe the Oracle will tell us the path to get there. there. It's kind of a prefigurative gesture, a gesture that projects a little bit more responsibility on the oracle than maybe the oracle wants to have. But that's, yeah, that's the reason I want to know is that I think it does impact so many different places in so many different ways. And disproportionately, I think that, you know, it's obviously impacting people in some places that know about it really well right now. I've been to some places where the climate has changed quite dramatic. dramatically as a result of climate change and people are really living on the edge. In the second film, no, our third film, I guess, of The Yes Men, we go and visit people in a very dry place in northern Uganda. And they're very much seeing the impact of climate change. They're pastoralists. And although climate change has been happening for thousands of years, and especially in places where desertification has happened, in places like the Indian subcontinent and North Africa. That's a place where it's accelerated dramatically in recent years. And so we saw people were adapting, people were changing. And there's places where they're well-equipped to adapt and places where they're not. So I do think it's something that's going to put pressure on all kinds of things. Maybe Northern Europe has a better chance of... weathering it well, but I think we're all in it together as far as the world goes. So it's a big question for me.
Speaker #1
It is a big question. And maybe just to follow your thoughts here, you've briefly made a reference to one of the movies by the Yes Men. Part of your work is about, as I think you call it, identity correction. You've also made reference here to the systemic nature of climate crisis and, you know, climate challenges. where do you see let's say powerful places in the system to to act you know i think uh muhammad ali would say you know a sting like a bee so where where would it make sense to sting like a bee where would perhaps identity correction be much needed these days yeah that's a good question you
Speaker #2
know people are becoming disillusioned with capitalism as it it currently functions because we have been seeing it not work. to do some of the things that we wanted to do and particularly in relation to being able to regulate in ways that would address the climate crisis effectively you know the the fact that we have this big or small depending on how you look at it planet um and now it's pretty easy for multinationals to get around regulations domestic regulations in individual countries by going abroad. I mean, that's been that's become a really huge problem for how we deal with uh with the climate and obviously things like the coalition of the parties the cop is trying to fix it but um you know i think that the the that there's hard ways that's it's a very difficult problem and so i think that some of the pressure points are to do with like corporate power what corporations are able to do and international frameworks and how they are. implemented and enforced. So that's, I mean, that's my lay person's kind of quite answer. But at the same time, there's all kinds of smaller, you know, interventions that can be done in the minds of all of us, you know, because we, one of the things that we do with the Yes Men is we're kind of like somebody who practices judo and uses the weight of the opponent to let them fall, you know, you put out your foot at the right moment, you trip. them you you you you try to reveal something about them because they're so big and clumsy that it gives you the uh the ability to maneuver in a way that that work that that works better i think that we we do this sort of sleight of hand or this kind of judo move ideally in the minds of people who otherwise don't have time to think too much about other anything other than their daily life because I think that that's I mean, what we end up being faced with now is all of these problems becoming not invisible, but harder to care about in light of having to just take care of day-to-day activities. And so we've relied on trying to get into people's heads through the media and creating these publicity stunts that target specific bad actors. So for example, a company like Shell that this year... has record profits, despite the fact that people are unable to pay their gas bills. And despite the fact that we have this not just energy crisis, but massive environmental crisis, those are the kinds of players that we would target to, in order to reveal something about what's wrong with the system and to keep reminding people of that. Because in theory, at least in the countries where we have a representative democracy uh in an informed public should be able to change the laws and make a difference and so that's the that's the premise that we work on we're kind of like publicists for uh activist campaigns that are trying to create change that we see as as positive you know reducing inequality reducing pollution solving problems that are facing groups on Let's say facing... subaltern or less powerful, powerful groups of people.
Speaker #1
So we've started with, again, probably one of the most daunting questions that we could ask to the Oracle. Let's imagine that you can show yourself again in front of the Oracle and ask her a second question. What would that be now?
Speaker #2
All my questions, unfortunately, are these sort of prefigurative questions where the Oracle is going to give us an answer to a problem. So I'd say that another one is... How did we solve iniquity and inequality? And did we have to abandon capitalism to get there? That's my question for the Oracle.
Speaker #1
Well, again, that is yet another overarching question. It sounds like also based upon what we discussed already that there might be connections. At least according to me, there are deep connections between the climate situation and capitalism and inequalities. is the question I would ask back at you. There is... Are we seeing signs already? Are you seeing signs in your practice, in the places, in the organizations where you intervene that inequalities are reaching an unsustainable level? Do we see early signals of, let's say, social unrest having, you know, an even higher probability of getting all of us fired from the surface of Earth? Higher probability than climate crisis itself? Do we see social unrest being an even more dire issue than climate change?
Speaker #2
Well, I think they're interrelated. You know, there's a lot of people who are calling, instead of using the phrase Anthropocene, they've started to use the phrase Capitalocene to describe this era, the current era that we're in. And, you know, Anthropocene was referring to human or anthropogenic climate change. That's what they... mean to refer to with that but by instead placing the responsibility of the change on capitalism and with its requirements for you know growth it creates uh it's meant to refer to the sort of causal agent right the reason why we have this problem in the first place why we we can't control climate change why it's it's run away because the system that we are operating on the operating system itself is privileging things that are not important for the future of human life, but rather for the future of just enriching a few people. And yeah, I do think that in the last decade, especially, things have gotten pretty crazy and we're seeing it. I mean, it's dramatic in places like where I'm from, my hometown in upstate New York, which is not New York City, but it's upstate New York. And now, even in the last few years. Rents have gone up so high that there's really nobody who's a young person now who doesn't have money, who can actually work a regular job and buy property. So that idea of the American dream that's tied to sort of capitalism is completely crumbling because people are in the situation in the United States of living. in a kind of perpetual poverty or seeing that happen. And that's, I mean, that's been the case for a lot of countries around the world where you've seen people, seen some kind of, you know, very big economic growth, but it doesn't necessarily impact the majority of people. We just did a project about Adidas, and I was kind of amazed to find out that, even though I shouldn't have been amazed, I know this happens, but... The workers that we were talking to in Cambodia who are working in the Adidas assembly lines just got a new minimum wage increase that brings their wages up to almost $8 a day. Now, $8 a day, the logic that we have up here is we say, well, that buys you a lot down there, but it actually doesn't buy you very much at all. Even Cambodia is way more expensive than it. than it was a few years ago. And so these people who are really living at a subsistence level, but working six days a week, you know, are, it's, it's just an unsustainable system globally and locally, I think. And I think, I think it is showing up. And I think there are examples of unrest, although I haven't been keeping track of, of them recently. So I'm not, you know. I'm not sure, but in the U.S., things got really crazy during the last elections, and I don't think that it's all just to blame on people following a crazy leader and being enthralled by fascism or by a kind of a brand of fascism. I think it's also to do with people feeling disenfranchised. That's why they want to make America great again, because it's like it doesn't feel that great anymore.
Speaker #1
So, you know, regarding alternatives to capitalism, I think that if we look back at the end of the 1960s, beginning of the 1970s, there were attempts at theorizing and experimenting alternatives to capitalism, both in the United States. but also elsewhere in Europe, for instance. This is the time when the environmentalist movement really came together. This is the time when many critiques were very carefully developed against productivity, industrial civilization. Now, those criticisms, in a way, got swept away by growth or whatever else took place in the last 50 years. Are there new situations that are happening today? Or do we see signs? Do you see signs also perhaps through your interventions of elaborate alternatives? Or was Margaret Thatcher right in saying that there is no alternative?
Speaker #2
I mean, I think that that's a good place to start because I think Margaret Thatcher and Rahm Eregin and, you know, the sort of Friedmanites who kind of set the neoliberal agenda. that were still on that same course are definitely, that was the turning point, I think. It defines most of my life because I was born in 1968, but it seems like going exactly in the wrong direction from where things were at that moment. But I think that all throughout, there have been many experiments about how to do it differently. Unfortunately, a lot of these experiments are up against the forces of capitalism that have a very fluid and powerful way of running around, let's say, these obstacles. It's sort of like in a river during a flood. There's little high points in the river that don't get submerged. but for the most thing things get, for the most part, things just get swept away by the force of the water. And to me, it feels very much like that. And then if the water recedes, which I think it does at times, you know, there's a lot of what was there has been swept away and then it has to be rebuilt again. So I see it as kind of like a flood of ideology and capital that has kind of submerged a lot of good experiments that are happening. Although the ideas are still there. And I think history shows that we can, you know, humans can turn on a dime, can change direction really quickly when there's a will to do it. And so it's sort of a tipping point, you know? And so I think that there's a good chance that things could shift rather quickly. I mean, there's been a bunch of times in my life when it seemed like it would and then it didn't. So we'll see if that happens. I mean, when Obama was elected to be president in the US, I was surprised that, well, I wasn't exactly surprised, but I was upset that there wasn't more change implemented more quickly. Because by then, the problems that we had really been identifying, or a lot of people I think had identified, especially scientists, were very clear. you know there was no more lack of focus about what the issues were both in terms of runaway inequality and things like climate change and environmental degradation plastics all of this crap you know that's really a huge problem for the earth um and for people and non-people all the you know all that stuff was really known at that point and still very little happened And a lot of the same neoliberal rules were followed. I think, though, that there's, yeah, where do we look to the examples? I don't know. I'd be curious to hear from you about that, where the best examples are for, you know, what we should try to do on a larger scale. There's a lot of great experiments that are happening now with things like universal basic income and, you know, methods, tactics. So I'd like to, yeah, I don't know. I'm not keeping a list though.
Speaker #1
We should keep searching, I guess. Let's ask one final question to the Oracle. And then I think that she deserves some rest, I guess. What would be that third and final question you would like to ask her?
Speaker #2
Yes, it is. How is it that we came to learn how to dance? so well and make love so much. in the future.
Speaker #1
All right. Where is that one coming from, Igor? I need some explanation, I guess.
Speaker #2
Oh, I just feel like if we're going to ask, as long as we've got these two sort of more dire, serious questions about how we get to where we're going. And the second one is really like, how do we fix capitalism or how do we replace it? And the first one is really, how do we just deal with the environment? How do we... make a sustainable future. So then the third one is like, how do we have joy? How do we have joy in our lives as people on the earth? And, uh, and I figure that maximizing that as expressed through dancing and making love makes sense. So I'm, that's part of the three questions that I have for the Oracle, because I think that, um, that also like, I think that our joy and satisfaction and experience of being human. is perhaps an important part of we'll also make the change we need to see.
Speaker #1
This third question, I think that at least the way that I think about it is going back to your question number two regarding capitalism. Capitalism uses as an engine hope and it uses as an engine the prospect for a brighter future. The future is supposed to be better than the present. And I think your third question... question is asking the oracle and of course us what exactly matters in life. It's asking human beings really to rethink their value systems or rethink what brings joy to them and perhaps ending up recognizing that once our basic needs are satisfied, most joy in life doesn't come with a price tag. It's free. It's perhaps... enjoying, you know, spare time, it's enjoying dancing, it's enjoying making love, it's enjoying all these things that are not monetized as such in capitalism. And you're in the way asking the oracle, are we going to be able to go through a anthropological reconfiguration or some such?
Speaker #2
Yes, well said. That explains it much better.
Speaker #1
But I will be thinking about your question to the oracle. I like it. I think this one is going to be a new reference point in this podcast. The oracle is now out of duty. Let's look in the rear view mirror. Can you please start by bringing back one time in history, one date, one historical process that you think we shall have in mind while thinking about the present, while... orienting ourselves in the present what can history teach us or how can history be of of use to us in this rather interesting time that's a good question i mean i think that there's a number of times i'm gonna go i
Speaker #2
guess for the beginning to start this out i might go to uh just let's take a period the the decade of the the the last years of um of the rule of of kings and queens in in europe in the in the late 1700s um i mean at least from large parts of europe um i i think that why not the french revolution why not go for something like that that this uh i mean i think that that the idea that the monarchy would fall was you know centuries in the making people talked about it but it probably seemed really unbelievable until it actually was happening. And I think that this is the reason why I look at a thing like that is that it's a massive change that took a very long time to build the will for and to build the, not the will, but to build the momentum to make it actually happen and to change the system. But then when it actually happened, it happened very quickly. It was like, you know, the mechanisms that replaced the power of the monarchy. were put into place rather quickly. And then it went through a whole bunch of different periods and upheavals and change. But to me, I see that as a hopeful thing because I think, oh, okay, yeah, we have this fairly new system, this capitalism that seems so pervasive and so strong that we can't imagine anything else really existing right now replacing it. But I also think that that's probably the... The same thing that one would have said if you're in the 1770s living somewhere in France. It just would have seemed impossible that there would be a shift. So that's why I've just chosen that randomly of all the times in history. I'm sure there's better examples of watershed moments, but that's what I'm thinking is like, what are those key watershed moments? And then another event in history, should I go for number two already? Well,
Speaker #1
I was just going to say connecting your first historical landmark with the work of the Yes Men. And so... This first historical landmark is about turning the unthinkable into the thinkable and perhaps even into the desirable. Is the job of the yes-man somewhere in that arena of, you know, changing the boundaries between the unthinkable, the thinkable? Do you see yourself as displacing those boundaries in a way?
Speaker #2
Yes. And in fact, I would say that we fit into a long lineage of Trickster. operatives, people who think like the trickster archetypes that we have from all of our mytho histories. Every culture has these characters, sometimes myths, sometimes legends, sometimes based on real people. And they did things that were sneaky and surprising in order to reveal something about the nature of that culture that otherwise would be sort of invisible. You know, so they crossed. boundaries, they change shapes, and they do create the possibility sometimes of dreaming where it otherwise is a little bit difficult. So the types of tactics that we use is we impersonate somebody in power and we might make an announcement that they're going to do something really good that nobody expects that they're going to do. One example is Dow Chemical, which bought Union Carbide, which caused the largest... industrial accident in history in Bhopal. So they were responsible for the Bhopal catastrophe. And when Dow Chemical bought Union Carbide, nobody expected that the company would ever compensate the victims and clean up the plant site, but that's what they announced that they were going to do, or at least that's what we announced for them. And so that idea that they could do that because they had the money and the capacity and the knowledge to do it was meant to be kind of liberating and what meant to be liberating. ask people, oh yeah, why don't they do that? If a company does buy, if a company is capable of fixing a problem they've caused, then why don't they simply do it? But we had to get there to make that announcement by using this kind of mischief and trickery that's part of what I would call this way of thinking as a trickster. And actually, most of the tactics of non-violent civil disobedience also fit into that category of the trickster. So you think about somebody like the civil rights activist, like Rosa Parks, not giving up her seat on the bus. Well, she's actually doing something that's illegal, right? By not giving up her seat on the bus, she's breaking the law. So she's going against the rules that have been set up in that dominant culture at the time. She's crossing a boundary and she's doing it in a very clever way. so that people see the injustice where they otherwise wouldn't maybe see it. It's making the invisible more visible. Obviously, a lot of people knew that it was totally unjust. But for some people, it hadn't occurred to them until they saw the right person doing the right gesture at the right time, a symbolic action that creates a story that people can retell about the injustice. And so that's kind of what we do. We work in those traditions as tricksters to try to amplify stories of injustice and do it in a way that, in the best case scenario, makes us think about the possibility of it actually happening. Because we get used to the idea that things are unfixable, that it's just the way things are, that the natural state of the world is what we have with capitalism right now. And that's a dangerous belief, but it's one that creeps in no matter what. And you have to constantly break it and remind yourself that this phase of civilization is actually fairly unique. You know, like there were many, many before it where the priorities were different. And it wasn't just about making money, capitalism and growth, you know, or capital and growth or profit and growth, however you want to describe it.
Speaker #1
Well, let's look at the... Rear view mirror. Again, I think you had another time from history to bring into the discussion. What would that be?
Speaker #2
Okay, so one other time is...
Speaker #0
The fall of the Roman Empire. And I know that that's not like a time in history. It happened over a long time. But the reason I like that one is that it ties into this, the question of environmental crisis. I mean, we can look at Easter Island or something as well. But that idea, you know, using up finite resources of deforestation, of the impacts of an unsustainable system on something that seemed huge and impossible, too big to fail, something that seemed like it would never collapse because it was so strong and so powerful. And the role of deforestation and overgrazing, that's been studied for the end of the Roman Empire in parts of Italy and other parts of Europe as well, and has been determined to have played a key role. And so I think looking at that as kind of a a precursor to what we're facing now. And also as part of a realization that this current civilization is one that could collapse. And we'd rather it be better to change it in ways that made the collapse less painful, you know, and less abrupt. I guess, yeah, I chose the Roman Empire there, but I could also choose something that's like a smaller, more kind of better example in some ways like an Easter. Easter Island kind of thing, you know, which maybe is a smaller sample group, but easier to get your head around the facts of the environmental collapse there that really caused that to happen. So, you know, and Easter Island's a good example because they just kept building bigger and bigger moai, those crazy heads, you know, it's like, oh, things are falling apart. We just need a big builder, big, big, build bigger, build more. We look at it now and say, that's insane, but isn't that kind of what we're doing now? It's just like we keep building bigger and more too.
Speaker #1
This example of yours brings an idea. I don't know if that would ever be a project for the ESMEN or whatnot, but you know how companies these days are fascinated with learning expeditions or learning journeys. You go in the most innovative places in the world, be it... Silicon Valley, be it Israel, be it any other place where innovation is at its highest. And you go there to, in a way, get a glimpse of the future. So here's an idea. What about a tour operator that would create learning expeditions for business leaders going to the Easter Island, going to Rome, talking with archaeologists? And getting them to get a glimpse of the future, which is civilizational collapse, if there is no limit put to growth, to systemic complexity, to the desire to build higher, build stronger. I wonder whether we've just identified a new business, really.
Speaker #0
Yeah, there's definitely some bespoke tourist ventures there ready for.
Speaker #1
the very rich we can work on that after this well would you like to bring um any other time from from history into the conversation so we've touched on two already let's say that you have one third card that you can pull out yes so the third is the activating one um
Speaker #0
and i already brought up the case of the civil rights movement in the united states which is clearly ongoing but But, uh... Just to give an example, the civil rights movement had a real watershed moment in 1962, I think it was, when they signed this thing called the Civil Rights Agreement. But I think that if you had asked people who are advocating for changing of the laws in the United States, in the previous couple decades, if they were making any progress, they would say no. And we've talked to a bunch of people who were part of the civil rights movement in the 50s and 1940s who felt like it was just a string of failures until, of course, the civil rights bill was signed. I guess it's 1964, I think. Yeah. And so often I think that mass movements and movements for, um, change as they're expressed in the last hundred years, you know, whether it's, uh, you know, movements to, uh, let's say for independence movements, like in the case of India, movements that are characterized by civil disobedience, those kinds of tactics, they usually feel like they're not working until they suddenly do, right? So it's like a series of failures, right? Like just to take Martin Luther King, for example, he was arrested 37 times doing civil disobedience. It wasn't like... And each time he was arrested and thrown in jail, it wasn't like a success. You know, there was a lot of things that seemed like failures, but it was the accumulation of a vast number of failures by a vast number of people working together that resulted in success. You know, and so I think that this is important to look at the long look at the long game. And as far as it goes with... you know, activism and trying to create change, it's important not to get too discouraged by what seems like all the failures, you know, because I mean, right now, if you talk to a Greta Thunberg or something, who's like the star of climate activism, I bet she on some level feels like there's a string of failures. You know, she had a huge success with the school strike. but ultimately it's a failure that nothing has changed. She's now been arrested a whole bunch of times and she continues to do it. But again, a series of failures. However, there are incremental changes and eventually there has to be that big success that I asked the Oracle about earlier because there is really no alternative to that. Like we don't actually have a choice. We have to succeed because otherwise... failure is unthinkable and excusable in the case of the global calamity that will come.
Speaker #1
Well, speaking about interventions and speaking about activism and successes and failure, that I think leads us quite nicely into the third and final part of this interview. So we've talked futures, we've talked pasts, let's now talk present. Can you please tell us and you've done that here and there during the conversation, please tell us about the many ways in which you intervene in the world. So you've got like a wild card. You can just share with us those bits and pieces of your practices.
Speaker #0
Sure. So usually we work with an activist group that has a campaign. So for example, it could be a big group, big organization like a Greenpeace, or it could be a you know, just a smaller ragtag group of people like we work with around the Occupy Wall Street years, you know, different, let's call it activist cells who have specific goals and campaigns. And we try to create media spectacles that get attention for their campaigns at critical moments when they need more attention in order to, let's say, change enough people's minds, or not change their minds, but get the... momentum to push for a change in legislation or to um you know to to build a movement in a way that will make it possible to uh get changes in government in government or in laws or in some cases force a company to do something different to just make it unprofitable for them to keep doing something bad. So... We've been doing this for about 25 years. And the way that we work is, it's kind of like if you think about an ad agency, you know, it's just an ad agency that's willing to use very strange tactics because we don't have the budget of an ad agency. Whatever we can do to outsmart the opponents and create a funny story or a meaningful or poetic story. that will be covered in the media and shared by people on social media. The form that those things take has ended up being, for us, mainly two different modes. One is to do things that are satirical. So this is in the tradition of Rabelais or Jonathan Swift's modest proposal where He had suggested that the Irish, I mean, he published a pamphlet suggesting the Irish solve the hunger problem by eating their babies. And this was presented as. a solution that would be accepted by the state at the time. And it was a commentary, you know, but it's fitting within the logic that already exists. Like if the state is willing to starve the Irish by denying them food that's being exported from the country because, you know, under armed guard, because it's a profit-making operation. If it's willing to participate in that kind of genocide, then why not have them eat their own children? You know, so that's the modest proposal. And so that's one option because satire is very fun. And we like to sometimes see the look on people's faces when a company like Halliburton goes to a conference and announces that they have a solution to climate change. And their solution is these giant inflatable bubble suits. that they'll sell for a lot of money and rich people can wear in order to avoid the impacts of a flood or a weather disaster. So, you know, seeing the looks on the faces of the, in that case, it was lawyers in the audience of the conference. It was a catastrophic risk conference from the insurance industry. And so seeing these insurance industry lawyers like take Again, This Halliburton proposal for this dystopic future was very funny. And so we made that into a scene in a movie that we released. So that's one version. But then the other version is to use our temporary identity as somebody rich and powerful or a company that's powerful in order to announce a utopian vision of the future. So that. we don't actually have a name for that it's not really satire it's uh you know because satire involves this sort of exaggeration of something that's already there um i wanted to come up with a name for it but i still haven't figured out what the name would be for this practice but it basically is about announcing the world that you like to see but saying it from a place of authority or from a place of remorse. So in the court, in the in the case of the Dow chemical announcement that I mentioned, you can imagine the executives of Dow feeling sorry for the victims of the Bhopal catastrophe and, yeah, actually deciding to do the right thing, which meant compensating them for their losses, attending to their health needs, cleaning up the mess that they left behind. And so it takes something that's kind of a natural response to seeing people suffer. and makes it seem real for a moment. But in that moment when it seems real, when the announcement goes out as a real thing in the news, everybody wants to believe it. And then when you find out it's fake, you wonder why it's not happening. And so that becomes more powerful in a way. This prefigurative gesture, this utopian announcement is more powerful, we find, but sometimes not quite as fun. as the kind of fanciful thinking you can do when you're trying to impersonate or embody a really bad entity.
Speaker #1
With the experience that you've just shared, I know that one question that I'm going to get from listeners is, all right, now we would like to do something with the yes-men or somehow employ their tactics or contribute to their tactics. How does that work if anyone among the listeners or anyone coming across this podcast has an interest in doing something?
Speaker #0
People can connect to us directly through our website at www.theyesmen.org. And there are little buttons on there for being able to communicate with us or being able to consult with us. Uh, we do things like, you know, we travel around and talk as well about what we've done in the past. Um, and we do these workshops and collaborations for activist groups. So just, uh, drop us a line, send us an email.
Speaker #1
How can I be sure that I am writing to the real yes men though? Any risk of you being impersonated? Has this happened?
Speaker #0
Uh, it has strangely not happened. And we have had... Not that I can remember. We've been ambushed a few times, but it wasn't by anyone impersonating us. It could happen, but so far... Nothing.
Speaker #1
All right. Well, it's been almost an hour. Thank you so much, Igor, for all the insights that you shared and the questions you asked. I do hope that our path will cross again. Thank you so much.
Speaker #0
I hope so, too. Thank you so much as well. And thanks for this podcast. I'll listen to future episodes.
Speaker #2
Merci d'avoir écouté ce nouvel épisode de Remarquable. L'ensemble des épisodes est disponible sur le site atelier, au singulier, desfuturs, au pluriel, .org. Pour ne rien rater des prochains, abonnez-vous, n'hésitez pas à laisser une note et à parler du podcast autour de vous. A bientôt !

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