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  Today's episode starts with a trigger warning and this is likely going to be the most blunt you will ever hear me speak because the matter of today's topic is so serious and it's something that we are all being exposed to on a day-to-day basis. I am going to be covering the psychology of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. It's important that we understand where these people started. how did this go on? Why did it go on? And also to ask ourselves, do we know someone like this around us and maybe aren't clocking it? Why? Well, they're not bad all the time. Yeah, I've always known they're weird, but it was just none of my business. How many of us have heard stories like that and then seen a headline a few years later? I know I have, and it is very jarring. So on a national level, yet again, Gen Xers, Millennials, and Gen Zers, and now Gen Alpha, are learning about these files. And we have to have these conversations. So I want to ask you, before you listen to this episode, to just be mindful of your own story. If at any point throughout this episode you feel triggered, I want you to pause. You don't need to... Don't need to be a hero. It doesn't mean anything. It just means this is upsetting. That's information. That's a good thing. That means that we're connecting to our emotions. And we should all have feelings about this because we, I think as a cohort, as a human species, we should care for our neighbor. We should care that people around us are safe. I just think that's a universal belief that we should all hold. So welcome to The Road Leads Back to Me. I'm Coral Cycle, and we're going to be breaking down the psychology behind Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. Let's talk about it. Something that I have always been fascinated by is why people behave in the way that they behave and why they feel like they could get away with something. That is a question I have gotten pretty much the last three weeks in sessions. How did this happen? How did it occur? And I always link it back to groupthink. So what I want you to think about is I want you to think of an instance where maybe you had a moment where you just had a weird feeling about someone. You couldn't really place it. You didn't know what it was, but. You just didn't feel like you felt safe around them or maybe trusted them 100%. But they had so much power and they had so many connections. And you know that if you play nice and how we in Spanish would say, engage en la politica, then you know that you'll make it through the circuits and you'll be able to socialize. And in this type of society that we live in today where we compare ourselves to one another and... elite-ism and social class is what you want to aspire to be or get to, you are going to have epithelial feelings. And some of the things that we're going to talk about today, because Jeffrey started from very humble beginnings. His dad was a janitor. He was raised in Brooklyn, Coney Island, and he was as elusive. So it's been, I have had to do a lot of research to even figure out where he started. But what we know is starting from humble beginnings does not make you a Jeffrey Epsom. But the desire and will to be cutthroat, not care about anybody else, lie. It's not hurting anybody, so they think. But they'll lie for a position and they'll say that they did something, which was him. So what we know about Jeffrey Epstein and his elusive nature, which is something that all of these stories that we have of him are based from recall of his brother Mark. And also some depositions and some close friends that he did express some of these things to and interviews that he did. And he felt comfortable enough to answer certain things. Based off of that, what we know is that he was incredibly gifted from a very young age. and he got a lot of his... praise from that and because of that graduated high school got into college did not complete college He then somehow entered into the Dalton School in New York, where per, I believe this was either a deposition or the Netflix special. I want to make sure I cite my sources. He had actually lied on his resume, but he was so commanding and so charming and took over his interview. He was so brilliant that they just kind of overlooked it. It's kind of when I thought about that and in really reflecting about that scene, I thought about how it was one of those moments where it's like, all you need is one person to believe you in the room. And if you can calm that person to like you, and if you can just read certain mannerisms or read certain things, you know how to command a room. And that's what he would do. And this is based off of multiple. people saying this through documents, documentaries that I've been doing the research on and articles that I've read. With that being said, we know that he, with his giftedness, believes that he knows more than you. And what do we know about a malignant narcissist? They always know more than you. So the other thing too is when you know someone lies and you catch them. You're kind of like, what do I do now? Because it's an awkward feeling. It's an awkward position. It's like, okay, well, I've never lied to this person. Why would they feel the need to lie to me? And what I will tell you is you only lie when you're afraid. And narcissists may be all big and bad, but they are scared. They are terrified that you're going to call their bluff. They are terrified that you are going to face them and make them look not intelligent. So if you come from a background. where all you were in your life were praised for how intelligent you are, you are always going to one up, especially if you are stemming from a place of lack. And if your dad is a janitor, humble beginning, your mom's a housewife, and you're just lower middle class, you want more. And in his case, his inability to just empathize. with people. And it was just a primary game thing for him. It was what he could do to get more power. He would command an interview. And next up was his rise into his next part of the career, which was how he got into the stock market. So how did he get into the position that he was upon his lifetime? The way he started was he met a man by the name of Stephen Hoffenberg. And if you watch the Netflix special, he talks about how he was able to note that number one, I believe he was who caught his lie on the CV that Epstein gave in. And Epstein gave false accountability. Oh, you know, I just knew that if I didn't put a prestigious thing, like I wouldn't be hired. But look, all my students do great. All of this. False accountability makes you believe like, okay, well, I caught them and like they're having a human moment. The key thing here is, does that continue to happen? You could have humanity and make room for it. But if it continues to happen, that means that he is testing how far he can continue to lie to you. It's always a test, especially with a narcissist. So with that, Stephen Hoffenberg was like, I like the way that this guy can command a room. I like the way that. He can make me fall or believe whatever this is. I need him to commit a fraud with me. So he hired him and he did a Ponzi scheme. And he was, his claim to fame was, I could figure out the stock market. Tell that to someone who is a multi-billionaire or millionaire or just any of us. You know how to rig the stock market? Okay, let's go. So that was the allure and appeal of him. He was the money guy. Next, he ends up meeting Leslie Wexner. Leslie Wexner is an important figure in this because he is who brought us Victoria's Secret, Unlimited, and all of those big consumer stores that we loved as millennials and Gen Xers. This is all important because the recruiting and all the stuff that they did started at that level, down to what we were being shown. and what was being wanted so it was being tailored Next, the weird thing that happened there was that this multi-billionaire not only entrusted Jeffrey, but made him his power of attorney. That is how good he was. He made a multi-billionaire make him his power of attorney. But you have to stop and pause and ask yourself, why would a multi-billionaire, even if this guy is that good, entrust him with that? He just knows how to work the stock market. What can you do with that money? Some things that we see in S deviance is when you overcompensate for something that maybe has happened to you. I, and this is just my professional and personal opinion, in gathering all of my data and in my research, I believe that Jeffrey was likely Leslie Wexner's boyfriend. He was actually called that. That was one of his nicknames. I don't think you get called someone's boyfriend unless you're doing something. I don't think you get paid power of attorney, especially with the way that he worked his system without having to give up something yourself. And I deduce that from a deposition that was aired where he was asked if he had ever been assaulted. And this, at the core of it, is a repetition of a cycle. That has probably happened from his childhood and or Leslie Wexner, whether that was consensual or not. And then he felt the need to overcompensate by doing it to women. Typically, when we see an age of when an assault or a perpetrator does something to someone, usually the age that they had that happen to them. And that's really difficult. to think about. So I want to take a pause and just have you check in with yourself right now. If any of this stuff is bringing stuff up, take a pause. You do not need to thug it out. You don't. This is heavy and it's meant to elicit something because we need to connect to these emotions. We as a society right now have really lived in this state of cognitive dissonance and It's easier not to have to think of our feelings, right? Or how something makes us feel because how are we supposed to then work our 40 hours a week? How are we then supposed to work our side hustle? We can't be distracted, respectfully, not in today's economy. So operating from a space of cognitive dissonance, sometimes we will engage in fight, flight, freeze, or fun. Those are trauma responses. And it's kind of like when... You maybe want to action on something. Maybe you want to go to the gym. Maybe you want to work out. I'll use myself as an example. I've been like dying to try Pilates. I've even told my girlfriends like, hey, can we go do Pilates together? And gratefully, I have a good support system. And they're like, hey, you want to go do Pilates? And I'm like, yes. So I was not doing that for a while. And I would use every excuse under the sun. And it was actually because my nervous system was exhausted. I was in what's called a functional freeze. Where I just kind of like wanted to action on something, but couldn't do it. I bought all the stuff. I was ready. And I even posted about it. And I was like, guys, keep me accountable. I didn't keep myself accountable. And fight, flight, freeze, or fawn are trauma responses that we have, especially when we're very overstimulated and are trying to attain control. So I want to take a pause. Let's do a little bit of a brain break. Let's hydrate. Stand up, stretch, do whatever you need to do to take care of yourself. If you don't need to do this and don't feel the need to have to pause, all right, then let's stick around. So what is cognitive dissonance? Cognitive dissonance is when your nervous system knows something's wrong, but maybe around you, your surroundings, your social system is, are you sure you want, oh, you're being such a baby. Oh, you're being so sensitive. So you kind of like, even though you know, that you should be upset or should be mad or talk to something or talk about it. It's a protection strategy. It helps you not have to have the awkward conversation or the awkward interaction. But the important thing here with regard to Jeffrey Epstein is, and we're going to continue on explaining how he got to where he got to. But the important thing here is how did he... How was he able to even do this? How were him and Ghislaine able to just amongst some of the richest people in the United States and the world, just make this a normal thing. Well, it's not that bad. He's just an asshole. And it is that deep. You know how people sometimes tell you it's not that deep. It is. They just don't want you to realize that it's that deep because they want to continue to do it. Because they likely are having it done to them or have had it done to them. So with that, I like to call the current state that we're in a dialectic of confusion. Because we're like morally and socially confused as to how to approach this. Because we're so afraid of being canceled. We're so afraid of saying the wrong thing. We're so afraid of what is someone going to think of us. And all valid points. All valid points and dialectic. This is wrong. This needs to be spoken about. And this needs to be checked. Because this could happen to any of us. And as a survivor, I can tell you what happened to me. And the he's just an asshole thing, for me personally, is one of the most triggering things anybody can say. Because you're excusing someone else treating someone like that. Because it doesn't impact you. And that's how this happened. And that's how it can happen. You know how sometimes I tell you guys, it's in the realm of possibility. This is now in the realm of possibility. And that's fine. So something I always say is what is in the realm of possibility. And the realm of possibility is what do we know can factually occur. I'm not going to sit here and think I'm special and that's never going to happen to me. And so the realm of possibility is this was something that happened to X person. I'll give you an example. I live in Miami, as you can tell by my very Miami accent. I live in this place called Eureka, which was down south in Miami, like South Miami. And there was a little boy named Jimmy Rice who lived down the street from me. I lived in one part of Miami. He lived in the new part that I just moved to. Within two weeks of me moving to my house, what happened to Jimmy Rice happened, which is a whole other thing in and of itself. And you can look that up yourself and it was a horrific crime against a child. Jimmy was my age and lived five minutes down the road. It was the first time that I was like, oh my God, this could happen to me. It happened to effectively my neighbor. And if you look up that what happened there, you can ask any Miami kid that is a millennial or a Gen Xer and they will, they know who Jimmy Rice is. It was such a horrific story. And I have goosebumps as I say this, but that's what I mean as an example of realm of possibility. It's knowing that this can be possible. This happened to a friend of mine. Yeah, that could absolutely happen. Why? Because it's a fact. It's true. And if we have all these files that they need to unredact, they need to protect people, it's a story for another day. But the realm of possibility has now been expanded. And that is terrifying. Because as we've spoken, Jeffrey started from very humble beginnings. So there could be Jeffreys around us. And there very well could be Ghanaians. So in 1991, around this time, Jeffrey meets a woman by the name of Galynn Maxwell. Galynn is a socialite from London whose dad was a huge publishing tycoon over there. And they were very well known over there and had a really big scandal. But back in the day, we did not have internet in 1991. So because of that, it's not like how now it could be like, oh, wow, this happened, like how we know. People get arrested and people, wow, this just happened. This person got indicted or whatever. We didn't have that capacity then. We had like home phones and like no internet yet. So she was able to kind of create and continue to live off of her social light status. And again, when you're in that kind of like upper echelon, I will be breaking down the psychology of Ghislaine Maxwell in my next video. You kind of like don't question it because everyone's just like, okay. that's just who this is and this person's in our circle now and The cognitive dissonance is still a thing because we will get to Jeffrey years later getting caught. And once he was released from prison, ended up just going back into his class and just continuing. He even threw a party after he got out. But back to Ghislaine. In 1991, he meets Ghislaine Maxwell. And once they meet, she uses all of her status to elevate him. She had gone to Oxford, very well educated. And when you look at her and you look at Jeffrey, and especially if you look at videos and just their depositions and the way they compose themselves, you would never think that. Because a predator doesn't look unsafe. It's not like the, like, you know, when you're watching like a reel or you're watching something on TV and you're like, oh, that person's the evil person, right? Sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's the person that's dressed super nice. Sometimes it's the person that is, you would never imagine that. And that's what that was. So they, within a few years of being together, start to have this open dynamic and open relationship where they begin to recruit young women, specifically high schoolers, at least the one here in South Florida, and begin to traffic them and under the guise of massages. They made sure not only to have adolescents whose brains are molded to operate off reward systems, right? Like you want to have, I mean, they think we all are to a capacity, but think of what you're taught as an adolescent. You have to be respectful of authority. You have to be respectful of adults. I think that's a cross-cultural kind of thing we can all agree on. Or we could assume, at least. And he made sure to go to the ones that were living in trailer parks and likely had very, very tumultuous or hard upbringings. And that is predatory. That was targeted. That was premeditated. And it was by design because he knew or they knew we can grab them like this and then we could recruit them. Because if we normalize it and desensitize them. they'll just rinse and repeat. So now we get to the point of where Jeffrey gets caught and this is very telling to the way that he moves and what leads me as a trauma specialist to believe my theory on this. This is just based off of history and pattern recognition of what I'm noticing through everything I've researched in the last few weeks. When we look at his depositions He pleads the fifth. And you have the right to plead the fifth. You absolutely have the right. But there are just some questions where if you're innocent, you can just say yes or you can just say no. Am I a bad person? No. I try not to be at least. It's very simple. You can literally say that. So when you are having someone ask you an array of questions of... S-A, involving my news, involving people that are not consenting, then you have to plead the fifth. Although you have the right, that's going to make me question you. It's a simple yes or no question. Either you did it or you didn't do it. Why are you pleading the fifth? The other thing I wanted to make of note is if you re-watch the Snufflet special, I know I saw it trending again, so clearly it is, people are watching it now. I want you to take note of his emotional depth. Do you know how you could... Actually, I'm using an even better example. I'm sure all of us watched America's Next Top Model documentary on Netflix. I mean, Netflix, if you want to holla at me, like I've literally given you 100 shout outs at this point. But Tyra, Tyra was... I am so sorry. I, you know, you really learn from this. And you just can only go back in history? It's like, okay, ma'am, you are literally saying it. In Spanish, I was like, eso te duele. Like, that hurt you to say that. That was performative. And I do want to give a shout out to whoever that editor was because the way that she thought she nailed it and then you guys used that, like, really bad acting scene. Chef's kiss, whoever you are. Sprinkle, sprinkle. That was really good. But think of that. Right? Like think of that like, Same thing with Jeffrey. You see him trying to make sure he's keeping his cool. He doesn't want you to see him sweat because he needs to be in control. If you look at the depositions, you'll note that. There's an emotional shadow, an emotional, an emotional shallowness to him. There's a disconnect. And here's where I will lovingly challenge that. While that could be a trauma response, it's the lack of remorse likened to, in my opinion, what I observed in Tyra as well. Another thing that I think is really important is as we speak of his manipulative ability, I also want to talk about how exploitative he is. Because there's only one way that you could do this, it's blackmail. And having intel and insight on someone and their process. And knowing their weaknesses, that is prey. And that is what a malignant narcissist does. They observe you. A lot of the survivors from this crime, because it's what it is, they say how he was just so cunning in the way that he could make you believe that he was right. He was so exploitative. And that's because he observed them and he studied them. And he asks them questions to get to know them like a love bum, except one that comes with money in this point and some status. So when I'm looking at some sort of case or even coming with my own conceptualization, I like to think about what would I diagnose this person with? And I mean, he meets full criteria for antisocial personality disorder, which leads to a high functioning psychopath. There is no psychopath. there's psychopathy in the DSM, but antisocial personality is what we have. And he meets pretty much full criteria. Actually, I'm going to grab the DSM. So now that I have my DSM, my pocket DSM, I'm going to read you the criterion for antisocial personality disorder. A pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of rights of others occurring since age 15, as indicated by three or more of the following. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest. Deceitfulness as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead. Irritability and aggressiveness as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults. Reckless disregard for safety of others or self. Consistent irresponsibility as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work, behavior, or honor financial obligations. Lack of remorse as indicated by being indifferent or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen, stealing from others. The individual is at least 18 years old. There's evidence of conduct disorder with onset before the age of 15. and the occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during this course of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. Now, patterns of behavior tend to repeat and be reinforced unless someone stops it. So that would lead me to believe if he is able to lie to such a school like the Dalton School, that wasn't learned in the last year. That's been around. So I could infer that something before the age of 15, he'd already been lying. Plus, he was so smart. So he knew he could get away with it. It's important that we talk about the diagnostic criteria that someone displays because what we look for here is chronicity. And we have years cataloged of this behavior that is antisocial. Meaning, yeah, this person should not be around any sort of society because they are a harm to themselves. Well, not them. Well, to themselves and others, effectively. And in this case, others. Because he repeated a cycle. and engaged in hurting these people under manipulative and coercive abuse and just blackmail. And it was a way of being able to obtain control of the situation and to make himself feel more than when he was possibly stemming from a space of being less than. And we see people that have narcissistic traits or are narcissistic. they typically stem from that space of what we call a fragile ego. And one of the highlights in true millennial fashion that I enjoyed was when you catch someone like this and they try to do something. And I found it really funny that the defense attorney of one of the survivors was like, I had to get in his head. I had to make him crack. And they showed it in the video. And they pretty much, you know, talk about what I have now dubbed egg steam. You know, like his junk was the size of an egg and that it looked like an egg. And effectively tried to demasculate him in the thing. I'll let you know. All right, I see it because if there's a stereotype, right, where you're trying to overcompensate for something, and if you literally feel less than, respectively, because of that, then that's an extreme. But now that's in the realm of possibility. And that's terrifying to even think that someone would like, because they feel so less than, do that. Not saying that that's what that is, but I just thought that was something of note that I wanted to mention. Now that we've broken down the anatomy. and especially the foundation of how Jeffrey came to become the person that he and his legacy are now and to this day. I think it's important that we talk about how this impacts us. I believe that as an elder millennial, we really have gone through just so much vicarious trauma and I think of us as a cohort, Gen Xers as well, and the things that we were exposed to. I was actually in therapy the other day and then yesterday in my supervision, and I was talking to the therapist that I work with around that. And one of the things that we were talking about was the things that we were exposed to as kids. Like, I'm sure you remember Rotten.com, seeing things that you would go once a week, and you didn't want to see that, but you would see. whole bodies like you there was no censoring there was no nothing sensory it was the wild wild west in the 90s and early 2000s especially the beginning of the internet that's the generation i grew up so we hear these stories we're raised on them but because it's so away we know that it's a possibility but since it doesn't really apply to us we kind of just log it to memory and continue going. But the cognitive dissonance is something that even happens in today's age and in all of our friend groups. After my research, I took a moment of like just trying to ground myself. It was just so much information, so much stuff that I was like, wow, like I understand it. It does not excuse it though. And I think that that's the biggest thing you We need to make sure that we do not excuse the type of behavior just because we understand where it came from. Because that was a choice, an array of horrific choices that were made by people that were doing it under the guise of hurting somebody else. And taking control of somebody else and manipulating somebody else. That's not a secure attachment. That's not someone that you should want in your life. But how many times do we make excuses for people? Oh, they're just a dick. Oh, they're just this way. They're not bad all the time. Yeah, they're not supposed to be bad all the time. If they were, you wouldn't be with them. It's called intermittent reinforcement. It's where they give you the little breadcrumbs, they sprinkle some stuff for you so that it's not always that bad and that you do stick around. And if that happens, we clock it. This could have been prevented. And I think that that is my biggest takeaway of today. And my call to action to you guys, if you notice something or see something, if you don't feel like you could say something to a person, you need to ask yourself why. Is it because you're afraid of losing the relationship? Is it because you know that they won't take it good? We all know our people. Or like a family member of mine that says, we all know our players. We do. If you understand them on a humanistic level and you have a secure attachment, as long as you're intended with wellness, just ground yourself on that and do it. Because you never know what you could be saving them from. And you never know who you could be helping. Or if you just clocked something because you trusted your intuition, which is something that a lot of people don't do to make sure that they keep up with the Joneses. or stay popular. Living in alignment with your values is something that's really important to me and something I teach my clients. That is the foundation of my work with them in trauma therapy. It's getting to know who you are outside of your trauma, because that is the true version of you, the version of you that isn't held down by your trauma. These survivors and what we are witnessing today, it's important to let them know we believe them and that I don't think this is far-fetched, but that the good guys do win and that justice does get served. Because that is the foundation of hope. And I know right now it just seems a little disappointing or a lot disappointing. And I know I have felt that. So I want to engage in a bit of a grounding exercise before we wrap up today, where I'm going to teach you how to almost taper how much we're intaking and how much we're because we want to stay informed, but we need to also continue going through life, right? So I want you to take a moment and I want you to, if you are barefoot, if you're driving and listening to this, do this when you're home or listen to some binaural beats to help calm your nervous system down after this episode. I want you to ground your feet on the floor. If you're outside and listening to this, go sit up, step on grass if you're not allergic or if you don't have a reaction. And just truly ground yourself and feel your feet down to the floor. Put all the pressure that you can on them. And as you're doing this, I want you to take some deep breaths. And I want you to just imagine as you're sitting here, I want you to hold your belly like this. And I want you to just repeat that. Let's repeat that five times. And as you're doing it, I just want you to imagine this just blowing up your body and noticing if you notice any sort of tightness or if maybe throughout this whole podcast, you noticed a part of your body, maybe your chest getting tight. Maybe you're feeling like you couldn't breathe. I want you to just take a moment and notice that. If you're feeling this, it's normal, but I want you to just notice where you see or feel anything in your body. What I want you to do as you're going up, just remind yourself that you are safe, that you are in control, and that it's okay to feel these feelings. Because this is not normal, and this is not a healthy thing. And your nervous system is advising you of that. And we want to thank it for doing that. It's doing its job. And I want you to just stay curious. And I'm going to be adding some journal prompts. If you want to further this in therapy, you know, bring it in and share it with your therapist. And see what's there. Us brain spotters, we say there's information there whenever we have a felt sense in our body. And so... I want you to just get curious to that. Thank you so much for joining me today. If you like this sort of content, please let me know in the comments and make sure you like and subscribe. Not only on YouTube, Spotify, all the social media platforms, Instagram, TikTok, also on Coral Explains It All, where I break down a lot about groupthink and how to supplement some of the things that I'm talking about here into your day-to-day life. I'll see you next time. Take care.