- Speaker #0
Are you a people pleaser? Do you feel like you're constantly setting yourself aside so that you can tend to other people's issues? Do you give unsolicited advice? Well, if you answered yes to any of these questions in my little impromptu quiz, then you might be codependent or at least have some codependent qualities, which if you did, don't worry. I do too. And I also have some good news. Today's guest is a codependency counselor with tons of great actionable advice on how to stop abandoning yourself. and start staying present with your emotions and desires. Welcome to Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LaGrasso. I'm Lauren LaGrasso. I'm a Webby Award-winning podcast host and producer, singer-songwriter, public speaker, and multi-passionate creative. This show sits at the intersection of creativity, mental health, self-development, and spirituality, and it is meant to give you tools to love, trust, and know yourself enough to claim your right to creativity and pursue whatever it is that's on your heart. Today's guest is Erica Wright. She's the creator of Healing Codependency. She runs facilitator trainings and support groups that help people get out of their own way and live a better life. I wanted to have Erica on the show because I find it so fascinating that she has learned everything she knows about codependency from lived experience, and she also credits plant medicine, which she is a practitioner of, and I'm super curious about. But I just love that Erica is yet another example of we teach what we most need to learn. Who better to show us the way than someone who has been in the trenches herself? I also love how actionable her advice is, how to the point she is, and just her direct style. So from today's chat, you'll learn the difference between loving someone and controlling someone, how to finally get into a relationship with yourself, the difference between codependency and creativity and how to be internally motivated, and why getting comfortable with unpleasant feelings is key to healing. Okay, now here she is, Erica Wright. Erica, I'm so honored to be here with you and to get to talk through codependency, which is probably my hardest thing in life. So thank you for being here and for all that you share.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks, Lauren. I really am grateful for the opportunity to talk about the hardest thing for me in life.
- Speaker #0
We already have so much in common. I love it.
- Speaker #1
Truly, truly.
- Speaker #0
So I wonder, speaking of that, could you tell me your codependency origin story?
- Speaker #1
Well... Okay. First raised Catholic. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Ding, ding, ding.
- Speaker #1
That'll get you every time. Yeah, very much so. I mean, that pretty much you're in the bucket. Yeah,
- Speaker #0
it answers it.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. It's all it's all based on my definition of codependency is far outgrown. The one that how the word was coined originally basically is rooted in addiction. Right. And I really feel like as. We've grown as a culture and a society and we've shifted and changed that it's well expanded outside of addiction. So for me, codependency is manipulation and control of how other people feel and manipulation and control of how you feel.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
The most basic. Okay. And then some emotional cues that would indicate codependent patterning are expectation and disappointment, guilt and betrayal, resentment, and basically. any maneuver you have to avoid vulnerability. Okay. So like my origin story of codependency is I was born in America and I'm a white lady. That's it. The whole country was founded on basically creating a system where a very small amount of people are in control and everybody else is not. Okay. Now couple that with Catholicism, which is basically. A very small amount of people are in control. And then like your relationship with God is conditional upon somebody else's approval. It's like, did you have to go to confession? Yeah. Right. So you sit in a box and you wait for someone to tell you whether or not God loves you. It really is in its essence manipulation and control of other people's feeling states as well as your own, right? It's like, oh, I'm not allowed to as a. female bodied person in this country, right? Like, don't be too big, too loud, too angry, too scary. You know, it begins at the very beginning. And then for me, the way that it came into my life, I was about five years old and my birth father and my mother broke up and I was not allowed to tell my siblings, my mom and my stepdad met and fell in love and whatever. And, you know, I was told that I was not allowed to. tell my siblings or anybody else that I had a different dad because of how uncomfortable it would make my stepfather. So I grew up lying about who I was to manage my stepfather's feeling states.
- Speaker #0
Wow.
- Speaker #1
You know, I just agreed to it. Right. Because I just wanted everybody to be happy. It's like, fuck, yeah, great. I'll ignore who I am and didn't even realize, you know, that went on for 20 years up until the point where they got divorced and then I was allowed to be who I was. So that it was ingrained in me in a really small age.
- Speaker #0
Wow. Thank you for sharing that. I mean, that's deep and entwined. Could I just ask a question? Were you ever able to like talk to your birth father again or was that?
- Speaker #1
No. So he died. My parents, my mom and my birth, they were teenagers, you know, it's like, which is great. It's all a miracle. It's like the fact that I am who I am and I'm happy and it's just like, wow, it's a miracle anyone's alive. If you actually have kids, you realize that that's true. He gave me. up for adoption to my stepfather because, you know, he was like a 21 year old musician at the time and had the foresight to know he had no business being a dad, you know. And the last time I saw him, I was three when my parents actually split up. And then he died in 1981. And by the time it was like, oh, I can be who I am. He had been dead a long time. So I had the opportunity to reunite with his family, which is my family, and sort of just. piece everything together, you know?
- Speaker #0
That's a big story. That's a lot for a little, little girl to hold. Is that a common theme through a lot of codependent stories is there's like a little child who's given this incredibly heavy load to hold. Not only are they given it, but then they have to pretend like it's not there.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Well, I think a lot of times, you know, it's like all the people that I work with now through this work, it's like, I have two daughters of my own. I have a four-year-old and a six-and-a-half-year-old. And it's like, I think human beings are born innately aligned with the truth. We're born, babies are so hyper-intelligent emotionally, spiritually, and my children are too. And I think as parenting continues to evolve and evolution continues to happen, right? I don't know how old you are. I'm almost 52. So I'm product of 70s parenting.
- Speaker #0
I'm 35,
- Speaker #1
I think. A lot of parenting in the United States is about if you can get your kid to do what you say and your kid does what you say, you're a good parent and they're a good kid. And so now is we're in this like new phase of parenting and there's books and there's research. It's like really being able to cultivate families where, you know, it's like my kids are who they are and I have I have zero interest in having them be anybody else other than who they are. And the fact. my childhood caused me to be radically honest with my children. So it's like that fine line always between am I protecting them or am I keeping what's real and true away from them? You know, so I had my kids via egg donor. Wow. It was like the hugest value for me was like, you are going to know who you are and where you come from. It's like the picture of the donors on the ancestor altar. It's like it's right here. Who you are is right here. And like so many times the shame or the unhealed material that the parents carry, the children take on. You know, so I was really clear with my kids like we're going in the opposite direction of that.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
Which thank God for it. Right. It's like, you know, I'm at a point in my life now where I was mad for a long time and shaking my fist. You know, it's like centering my parents in everything that's wrong for me or everything I thought that was wrong with me. Right. And I think there's a point in maturity where it's like, OK, well, I'm either going to make my life all their fault or all my fault. When it's all their fault, it's a very disempowering position because it's like, well, I can't do anything about them and what they did, but I can always do something about myself. So it's like really taking that as like what a great blessing it was. Was it hard? Yes. Was it painful? Yes. And like now the work that I do with people, it's like. everything that was painful became help for everybody that wants it.
- Speaker #0
So beautiful. And that was actually what I was going to ask you next, because I struggle with my parents. I know loved and love me so much. There was a lot of love. And I think love can make up for a lot. And I struggle with how do I hold them accountable for the blind spots that genuinely hurt me so badly. while also loving them. Like I think what makes codependency for me so challenging to heal from is nothing is black and white. And I keep wanting it to be black and white. It's like either I'm all in or I'm all out, but that's codependency in and of itself.
- Speaker #1
Right. So codependency is all about extremes. It's you or me. You love me or you hate me. You're on my side or you're not. You're a Republican or Democrat. Right. And what is true about the human being experience is there will always be multiple opposing truths. It's all a paradox. It's like my parents loved me and they were human. They're limited. Get on board. Right. It's just all of those things can exist. And like. The way that I see codependency now is everybody is innocent. That's the foundation. Everybody is innocent. This is programming that has been present for hundreds of years. Epigenetics proves that. It's like where we are in our culture, society, whatever you want to call it. It proves that. And, you know, the thing that's really helpful for me that I saw very clearly in my family that you're basically pointing out is like. There's no intentional malice in it. And it's harmful, right? And it's harmful until you're the person that's like, oh, I'm going to undo this harm on purpose. One, because it's my pleasure. You know, it's like, I'm doing this for me. I spent a long time thinking, well, if my parents could just fill in the blank, fill in the blank, then I could just fill in the blank, fill in the blank, right? So a lot of... non-codependent practice is you're not waiting for your environment to be conducive for you to take your power back. So codependency is I give the power of who I am and what I'm feeling and how I can be to you. Non-codependency is I am exactly what I am. I feel exactly how I feel, and I'm actually in charge of that.
- Speaker #0
Yes. Okay, let's talk about this more because there's something you talked about in one of the podcasts I listened to of yours that spoke to me. And it said, we have to get comfortable with feeling uncomfortable. We have to be able to sit in our emotions and to know our emotions and our feelings aren't emergencies. Can you speak to that more?
- Speaker #1
Yes. I think that the way that we have been groomed to be in the United States is, I also want to say, like, me? codependency, capitalism, white supremacy, patriarchy, colonialism, settlerism. Codependency is like the great grandchild of those things. It's like a byproduct of those being around for so long. Okay. So if you look at where we are, it's like you're encouraged the moment you feel uncomfortable to have a bag of chips, to have a soda, to have a beer, you know, it's like alcohol, drugs, TV, and here, check out, it's not good. You shouldn't feel upset, right? and not even being taught how to have big feelings in a good way, right? So it's like in the United States of America, behaving well up until you have a good reason to behave badly is what we're taught. Instead of, can I have all of my feelings in real time and still behave well? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. But most people, women that I work with, and
- Speaker #0
dudes for sure it's like a lot of overwhelmment and they don't even know like for female bodied people to actually access their anger yeah well i was gonna say i don't feel like we're ever allowed to have a bad day i mean as a woman like if i had an angry outburst the way i've seen some men either in my life or at work have like i don't feel like i would have the space to do that i think a lot of codependency for women is like This is new that we even have the safety to not be codependent.
- Speaker #1
Okay, so it's good that you bring this up because women could not open up a bank account without the signature of a man till 1972. That's the year I was born. Okay, so this is the first time I acknowledge that this is not the case in other places in the world. But like, this is actually the first time that we are not someone's property. Okay, so. all of your ancestors, regardless of where they were from for however long, your female ancestors did not get to live lives necessarily that were true for them. There are a lot of women who didn't want to have kids. There were a lot of women who married someone they didn't love. It's like you couldn't get divorced. You couldn't have an abortion. You couldn't, you know. So we're in this brand new place where we have the privilege of looking at a relationship and going like. do I even like this person? What the fuck am I doing with them? Yeah. And the privilege that we have here right now, anyway, where it's like, we're not being eaten by tigers. We're not out hunting for our food. And we're left with this really great opportunity of being with ourselves. And I think. females for the first time are going, what do I even want? What do I like? How is this working for me? This is brand new. We haven't been here before in this way where we can leave a relationship, have a business, be independent financially, right? So it's like I get so excited when I have friends or people who are like, I'm never having kids. It's like, Jesus, thank you. Please don't. Thank you for doing that. That's a service to yourself, but it's a service to everybody else too, you know? So where we are now with this privilege of being able to unpack our stuff and learn now, oh, I'm gonna learn now what my feelings are and what they mean. What am I letting run the show here? Are my feelings at the helm of my life or are my feelings weather that comes and goes, right? It's like we really have an opportunity to sift through that in our relationship with ourselves. and our relationships with one another.
- Speaker #0
So if someone out there is listening to us right now and they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is resonating. I feel what they're talking about. I think this is me. What are some of the signs, first of all, that they may be, I think you call it codependent patterning. Like what are some of the signs that that's coming up? And then what do they do next?
- Speaker #1
Some of the behaviors, okay, that are really common is working harder at someone else's life than they do. Inserting yourself. in business that has nothing to do with you. Seeing other people, even if you love them, as small, weak, fearful, and incapable. You know, the Catholic conditioning is, if I help you, that means I'm good and I'm doing this service for you.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I have to ask you real quick. Are you Italian?
- Speaker #1
No, I'm Mexican and Lebanese.
- Speaker #0
Okay, cool. But kind of similar.
- Speaker #1
But you know what? What? One of my Italian spirit sisters gave me a little... Italian horn because when I was growing up, there were only Irish and Italian people in my neighborhood. Yeah. I wasn't allowed to talk about what I was anyway, but I was always like, God, I wish I was an Italian girl and I could just have one of those Italian peppers around me.
- Speaker #0
Well, you're protected now by the pepper.
- Speaker #1
No evil eye for me.
- Speaker #0
So sorry to interrupt you. I had to know because it's just like Italian Catholic. I feel like they're like,
- Speaker #1
well, and Mexican Catholic.
- Speaker #0
It's very similar. Our cultures are very, very similar. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
That's right. That's right. And, you know, sacrificing your own well-being for another person over and over again. So ultimately, codependency is about your relationship with the truth. OK, so in order to participate in codependent patterning, you're lying all of the time and they're not the big smelly lies. It's the small things like, yeah, that's not a problem. No, that's fine. Sure. I'll meet you. tons of little, little tiny lies. Okay. And then the practice of conditional and transactional love. I owe you. You helped me move. So I'm going to help you move even though I don't want to. And my leg is broken.
- Speaker #0
That's a big one. Okay. I heard you talk about this on another podcast, and this is something that I, this is like the next level for me and my journey here is I have this obsession within me. With reciprocation. It's not that I think somebody should do something for me. It's if they do something for me, I instantly feel like I need to pay it back.
- Speaker #1
That's right.
- Speaker #0
Well, first of all, what do I need to unpack with that? And then how does one start healing from that?
- Speaker #1
Yeah. So everybody, most people keep a spreadsheet going. It's an emotional spreadsheet. It's like people that are married do it. It's like, well, I watch the kids this day. You got to watch the kids this day. Right. So it's like. We get very entrenched in this idea of equality, okay? And we all have an idea of what that is and just emotional equality. It's a very defended position, okay? Because there's no vulnerability in it. Real vulnerability would be you've done something for me and I'm actually just receiving that. It is a way to keep yourself in a defended power position. I don't owe you anything. I've paid all my debts to you. Capitalism, capitalism, capitalism, you know? And this idea that things won't be even and someone will call you out and you'll be punished. For me, it's like every human being is terrified that at some point they will do something and the love will be taken away. Because at some point, someone did something and the love was taken away. It's our greatest fear. And the piece that's missing and the piece that is the center of everything is your love for yourself. You know, it's like you have to abandon yourself repeatedly. to participate in codependent relationships. You have to ignore what's true for you. You have to ignore what you want and what you really need to be able to manage somebody else's ideas and feelings about you. The love and security that we think we're going to get from other people, it's us to give ourselves. It's cliche. And then there's that paradox of, can I? be in loving relationship with myself and stay centered in myself and not abandon myself whilst being mindful I have an impact on you, but not let my fear of what my impact might be run my life.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Let's start with that first part. How, if you are constantly in a cycle of abandoning yourself, how do you start to get into relationship with yourself?
- Speaker #1
Yeah, there's two pieces that I tell everybody when I first start working with them. Okay. The first one is you start telling yourself the truth. Okay. So a lot of folks, you're just on reflex. It's like someone texts me. I text them right back. It takes a pause for you to begin to cultivate a relationship with yourself of what do I actually want? How do I actually feel? And then sitting with that. I tell everybody, you're going to begin to stop lying to yourself. And the good news is, is like, you don't have to send out a newsletter or an email to everybody that you're doing this. It's an inside job first. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Hey,
- Speaker #1
everybody. I've been lying to all of you. I don't like any of you. And fuck you. No, this is like, OK, what do I actually want? And for a lot of folks, the beginning is I have no idea. OK. And the reality is like. That's uncomfortable, right? So what do we want to do with discomfort? Well, I better say something instead of I don't know. Americans don't like I don't know, because we've been convinced that if you're not an expat, you're a fucking waste of space. And there's so much beauty in I don't know, because anything's possible in I don't know. And really deciding that you're going to die in five fucking minutes. So I might. be willing to begin to consider that I want to get to find out who I am by getting in an honest relationship with myself. Okay. That's the first part. That's like the emotional mental part. And then the physics of it, okay, is when you are in a room of people or when you're in a situation where you have to answer somebody, and this sounds really corny, you want to walk around your life asking yourself about physical cues. Am I hungry? Am I tired? Am I thirsty? Do I have to actually go to the bathroom and I'm holding it for no reason? Because a lot of folks, they're not even in themselves. It's just like everything's happening outside. So it's beginning to create an intimate relationship with yourself. And it's like, you don't need to meditate to do that. You do it walking around your kitchen. You can do it while you're doing laundry. It's not another thing to carve out. But getting to know yourself might be as important as all of the managing of your relationships that you do.
- Speaker #0
I love that cue of getting just like remembering you have a body and hearing its cues because that is such a way that we dissociate. I even noticed earlier today I was in a meeting and I just felt sick. I felt sick the whole time and I was like, oh, God, why do I feel sick? Why do I feel sick? And then I was like, wait a minute. You don't feel good because you don't. belong in this meeting. It's not something to avoid. Sit with it. This is happening.
- Speaker #1
That's it. Our relationship, our discomfort is an emergency and we're told it's an emergency. You know, it's like take some Tylenol, do a thing instead of this is really uncomfortable. I just want to say here, it's like I get some people who have complex trauma. It's like, it's not this easy. Okay. So this is a gross oversimplification, but I am creating. the opportunity to be safe with myself by allowing myself to feel what wants to be felt. And just like any other habit, it takes like, I don't know what, 21 times of doing that. And then you really begin to learn how to metabolize having your feelings.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Is the reason we avoid our emotions. uncomfortable feelings much beyond conditioning or whatever, that there's some feeling in us. Like I remember when I was first doing this stuff, I thought if I sit with this, I won't live. I won't make it.
- Speaker #1
That's right. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
How do you have a chat with your brain and whole self and say, hey, I can have this feeling and not die?
- Speaker #1
I think you take it a little bit at a time. And then here's the really vulnerable thing to do, okay, is like if you have someone in your life that you trust and that, you know, you have a good relationship with it, it's like consider letting them in on it. I'm trying to do this thing where I'm letting myself feel feelings that I don't prefer. It would be really helpful for me if you knew that I was doing that so that you could be present with me when I'm doing that. There's nothing for you to do, but sometimes it's really helpful to have someone anchor you in that. It's like, oh, this just went down and I'm really uncomfortable. And the other person just being present with like, yeah, that's fucked up, or I get that. That is uncomfortable.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I love this part that you suggest about communication because another thing I heard you say on a podcast interview is like, if you're afraid you're going to get rejected because you have to reject someone's proposal, like let's say they asked you if you can help them move, you can say to them, hey, I'm really sorry. I can't help you move right now. You know, whatever your reason is. And I'm going through a lot or like I'm very scared that I'm going to get rejected by you. I want to be in connection with you. And like, this is hard for me to say. And I just want you to know I love you. It can all be true. And if that person is really for you, they're going to receive that with compassion.
- Speaker #1
That's right. And, you know, the reality is some folks won't. Some folks are not prepared or they don't want to have non-codependent relationships where it is where the truth is what's going on. And that is the truth. Some people will be like, well, you owe me. And it's just like, OK. Some folks are going to go along for the ride and some folks aren't. And, you know, it's like I kind of liken it to getting sober. You know, it's like I've been sober for 10 years. And at first it's like, I'm going to lose all my friends. And it's like, well, you're going to lose all your friends that are drunks. And you're going to gain a bunch of friends that aren't.
- Speaker #0
Right.
- Speaker #1
And it's that risk that we're so this is the love being taken away. This is the thing I'm talking about is like, well, what if me being me isn't actually OK with some people? It won't be. How is it for you? It's like, I'm at a point in my practice now where I still have codependent patterning. I think I'm going to have it till the day I die. It's like, I don't have a problem with that. And my practice is I'm going to tell you the truth. And if that means you're going to take the love away, okay, I'm good. I love myself for telling the truth. And that was not instant at all. That was like something I had to work at and work at and work at.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, that's so true, Erica. I've just recently given up the idea that like one day I'll arrive and that instead every day I arrive. I keep just chipping away at it like it's a new layer, like something I've noticed as you've been talking. I'm like, oh, I'm listening to what you're saying. And I'm like, oh, there's this person in my life. It'd be great. I'm going to give them this advice. And I'm like, oh, well, that's probably pretty codependent of me. Okay, this is the hardest one for me to get over. In my family, the way we love each other is giving each other unsolicited advice. Like that is how we show up. This has been a hard thing for me to unlearn because my relationship with my boyfriend, he is healthy in this way and doesn't constantly try to impose his will upon other people. And so this has been a real point of contention where it's like, hey, I don't need your advice. I just want you to listen. Just be with me. Like, trust me that I'm an adult.
- Speaker #1
Oh, he's a keeper.
- Speaker #0
Oh, he's amazing. He's the love of my life. But He has been huge in my codependency healing journey because every day I'm having to unwind the idea that love and unsolicited advice are one.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, that's right.
- Speaker #0
So how do you start doing this?
- Speaker #1
Yeah. So the new thing we're also learning is something called consent. Brand new. Wow. It's a big one. So the thing that I do is one, pre this work, I was always the person in the relationship that couldn't wait. to tell you what to do. That's a power position. There's no vulnerability in it for me if I'm in charge of you. So knowing that it's like, oh, this is a really defended way for me to be with you because there's no it doesn't require intimacy on my part. Something that is extremely valuable that we crap upon in this country is like.
- Speaker #0
asking for help. So now what I do when someone is talking and I'm listening, I do this with my husband because he is very non-codependent and we do this with each other and I'll be listening to him, listening to him and like, it's all going through my head. I know exactly what this fucking guy should do. And I'm probably right. I don't care. And I say to him, I have something that might be helpful. Would you like to hear it? It's so simple and it's just like, duh, but that's the opposite of inserting yourself. And it's a really good starting point for learning how to not insert yourself is to let someone ask you for help. And a lot of my clients who are used to that or who are used to inserting themselves, you know, another really great thing to say in place of telling someone what they should do is say, wow, you know, that's intense. I have every faith that you are. just the person to work that out. Like, wow, you're so great. It's like reflect how great they are instead of how incapable they are by putting yourself in the center. It's a lot more respectful.
- Speaker #1
Hey, creative, if you love the show and it has meant a lot to you, could you do me a favor? Rate and review on Apple. Give it a review on Spotify. Share it with a friend. These things all make a major difference in a podcaster's life. and in growing their show. And I really want to build up this community of creatives who love, trust, and know themselves, and love, trust, and deeply know others. So if you could do that and share the show with someone you care about, that would mean so much. All right. I love you. Tell me about this instinct of always giving advice, fixing things. making things just right for other people, but then having a really hard time when the mirror gets turned on yourself.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. It is all about vulnerability. Being the giver of advice. No one's seeing you as anything, but this is the management of someone else's experience of you. I just said this recently on an Instagram post. It's like being a counselor and a helper. It's like the edge of my practice and my relationships is to be a person that takes up space. is to be a person that's like, I'm going to show you and let you see me. That's really vulnerable for me. Okay. And the intimacy that we're all craving, not sex, but the intimacy, the connection, the depth only comes from transparency and vulnerability. That's the only way you get it. I'm going to let you see me. I feel very uncomfortable about it. And here I am. The other part. you know, the power play. It's just, it's defendedness. I'm only useful in a relationship if I'm offering you something.
- Speaker #1
Bingo.
- Speaker #0
It's like, well, can I exist in a relationship without payment?
- Speaker #1
Okay. So let's get to that because this self-worth piece I think is so, so huge. Yes. Like, so my theory, I don't know if I've told you this, but my theory with creativity is it's really hard to claim your creativity if you don't think you deserve to do so. So I believe creativity is made up of really gaining the tools to love, trust, and know yourself enough to claim your right to creativity because I believe it's our birthright.
- Speaker #0
Yes.
- Speaker #1
But this self-worth piece is huge. And I think that that's for sure a driving force in mine. Yeah. When you're coaching people, how do you get them to start seeing that they are worthy just because they are here, they are alive, they are who they are?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. two words that I wish would be eradicated from the fucking human language and it's worthy and deserve. Because what that indicates to me is that somewhere, and this is very Catholic, there's a big spreadsheet in the sky and someone's handing out the blessings and handing out the not blessings. And I just don't think it's true. I think it all goes back to the conditional and transactional love that we have been. groom to believe exists, right? It's like your life can be any way you say it is. And then there's the component of comparison and competition. Who are you holding yourself up against as a benchmark for you? Stop doing that. You don't know anything about anybody. You don't even know yourself. And females specifically, it's like the comparison and competition. You get it straight out the gate. Really, I feel like you throw a sword in the sand or the stone or the dirt or whatever. It's like, well, you know, I've put my money on everybody else. And I might be willing to put all my chips on me, even if I don't deserve it and I'm not worthy. Can I just fucking have what's mine? Will I let myself have what's mine? And no one knows shit about that for you. So a lot of folks look outside of themselves for information about themselves. Like that's all I did in codependency. It's like it would take someone else to tell me I was good for me to think that I was good. It would take someone else to tell me that I was pretty. And it's just like there is a act of maturity. I don't think it has anything to do with age so much as spiritual maturity or whatever, where it's like you're done looking at your external environment to inform you about yourself. This is what I'm saying. Getting in the center of myself. I'm willing to cultivate an honest relationship with myself. How do I like how I'm acting? How do I like how I'm being? And creativity. is a very, very vulnerable place because I think a lot of folks confuse creativity. It's linked to popularity.
- Speaker #1
Okay. Let's get to that because I think what you're saying reminds me of when I first moved to Los Angeles when I was 22, which is really what made me realize I was codependent. And I had a codependent relationship with acting. So if I got the part, I was a good person. If I didn't get the part, I was a bad person. And I had to eventually step away from it because it was an abusive relationship for me. Yes. Let's talk about that. The difference between creativity and codependency, because I think a lot of people listening and out there in the world are confused.
- Speaker #0
Yes. OK, so it's the difference between for me. How does this feel instead of how does this look? The only reason why I'm still doing this work is because I literally fucking love it the way that. I feel when we're talking about this, I like the feeling and I want to feel that way. It's like, I feel plugged in. I don't think I'm an expert on anything. It's just like, oh, the edge is this. It's like, I like how I feel. And I'm always just going to be me. I'm not all the other self-help people. I'm not them. And there's a reckoning that I have to have with that. I'm way more invested in how it feels than how it lands. It's like, I am not for everybody. And I'm okay with that. I'm a Libra. So my feelings hurt when people don't like me. Fuck yes. And I like how this feels. And it's the feeling I'm chasing rather than the outcome, the impact.
- Speaker #1
Wow. So you would say the key to this piece is being internally motivated versus thinking that anything out in the world is going to be good and make you feel better and like validate you.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. It's like, what are you in it for? What's the point?
- Speaker #1
I think of my sweet little like 22, 23 year old self when I was just a fetus. And just like it's so sad because I wish I had known someone like you back then because I would have realized I didn't even fail. I was just disappointed and had no tolerance for it whatsoever.
- Speaker #0
Yes.
- Speaker #1
If we're talking to someone like that right now, like how can they get back to the joy of it, the feeling of it and release the need for the outcome? While also maintaining a big dream, like, is it possible in your estimation to have big dreams, to be ambitious and to stick with your internal feeling?
- Speaker #0
Yes, I think it is. And everybody has to go through their own sausage maker. I was a shithead in my 20s. I love myself. And they were my 20s. It's what it's for, you know, for me to be like, now I'm ruining your life and now I'm ruining my life. And isn't this great? It's like it's OK. It's like. Like, can I soften to myself and who I am and not make myself wrong because I think my life should be some other way than how it is? So because our culture is also very ageist, it's like, oh, well, you know, limited amount of time and then you're going to. And it's like, according to fucking who, who? And I feel like the non codependency, it's really revolutionary because basically it's people deciding that they won't. buy into the systems that they have been conditioned to believe are true. This isn't an overnight thing. This is an arc of time thing. It's a dismantling of I need everyone to tell me I'm good into I want to feel good about myself and I need to learn what that is, you know, and Hollywood's a fuck show. It's set up that way.
- Speaker #1
Oh, yeah.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, it's like, you know, you're making nuts. It's like going into a fucking fun house and being like, why isn't this Chichen Itza? You know, it's a fucking fun house. Take it for what it is. It's showing you. Right. So like another thing that I would tell any 20 year old or whatever is like an anybody listening is. We tend to spend more time in fantasy. Who we're with is a fantasy. We make up shit about people and ourselves all day long. Hollywood's a byproduct of that. It's like, oh, great, here's a life of fantasy. But it's fantasy. And we have this idea that reality's bad. What if reality's great? It's like, can I accept my life on reality's terms? I want to get acquainted with reality. And part of that reality is... How do I feel? How do I like myself? And if I don't like myself, am I willing to learn how to?
- Speaker #1
That part you just said about reality really hits because I write music. I know you're a songwriter or you're a musician too. Do you write music too?
- Speaker #0
Sometimes.
- Speaker #1
You dabble. Okay. You've got a great voice. I love the song I listen to. But I wrote this song about one time when my boyfriend didn't text me back in the very beginning of our relationship. And the lyric was like, in my head, I can write an award-winning screenplay of words you've never said, and you'll never say I'm so creative. But let's talk about that because that strikes me as a disconnection with reality. I'm assuming everything that he's thinking, everything that he's doing. And the truth is he just didn't see his phone for two hours.
- Speaker #0
That's right. You know, so part of non-codependency is like taking reality on reality's terms. People are showing you who they are and what their point of practice is all of the time. OK, and then what we do is, oh, well, we have a preference. It would be like this. So I'm going to project who I think you are. I'll create an expectation, which is nothing but a projection. I don't care what the fuck you pointed out. And then I'll be disappointed that you actually are just who you are. You can point that at anything. You know, it's like, oh, my Hollywood career. Oh, my career as a lawyer. It's like, oh, I thought it would be. Yeah, because you made all that shit up. We don't know anything about. anybody and we barely know ourselves. And you can still be in a really great relationship of like, oh, wow, I'm open and curious about you instead of turning you into fucking Charlie Sheen when you're obviously Danny DeVito.
- Speaker #1
Obviously.
- Speaker #0
You know what I mean?
- Speaker #1
Yeah. I feel like a desire in me that I'm trying to quell to rush the ending. And I don't mean make it over. I mean, like, I want to know what's going to happen so I can feel safe. And now I've just started to realize like no one's ever completely safe. Like you're never going to be completely safe if you're living with any level of like authenticity. And even if you are, the world isn't an inherently safe place.
- Speaker #0
No.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, I can find safety within myself. And to your point, instead of always looking for it in other people, places or things.
- Speaker #0
How safe are you for you? And when you're abandoning yourself over and over again, you're not safe for you. You cannot trust yourself. Yeah. Like, wow, I'd throw myself under a bus if someone said that, you know, it's like this is the thing to notice. It's not a problem. You're not broken. You know, it's like this is where the innocent thing comes is like this isn't something that is a human defect. It's like this has taken a lot of time to get here and it's going to take a while to unravel it. I tell everybody when they first come and see me, it's like getting on a path of non codependency is like being deconditioned from a cult. You know, at first you're like, whoa, it's shocking. But it's just the little chip away of like, what do I want? How do I feel? Do I even like this person?
- Speaker #1
It feels like living in a house with no walls. And I know it's like that's what they say codependency is like. But it feels like when you start to release these things, it feels like all your defenses are falling down. And you're like, oh, I really am. I'm just me. I am me. All I have is me. And I guess I just have to breathe.
- Speaker #0
That's right. And feel the vulnerability. Feel it. I mean, look at us, dude. We're the most vulnerable things on the planet. You know, we live in little things and we can't be out in the sun. We get a sunburn and, you know, we fucking there's nothing to eat if we don't go to the store. We're the most vulnerable things on the planet. And if we could just allow ourselves to have that instead of. running in the opposite direction from it you know it's like something you can soften into instead of shake your fist out or go ahead shake your fist at it you know it's like who cares we're all going to the same place the ending is the same for everyone yeah
- Speaker #1
i mean i could talk to you there's so many different directions we could go into we didn't even talk about so many things you're also an incredible creative you have a chocolate store i have a chocolate company you have a chocolate company you're a musician you I love that. Like you could come back and talk about that sometime because that would be really cool. But I want to end it with this because we've talked a lot about this like gray space, how codependency really is living in extremes. You like me or hate me. I'm good or I'm bad. But the thing that I still feel myself struggling with with this is like, how do we stay in connection to other people while staying in connection to ourselves? Like what is OK? I can't help you move. But like, is there a time when I should help you move? Because like it's the right thing to do and it's in line with my values. But I don't really want to. Like,
- Speaker #0
when do you know the center of it all is truth? If you tell the truth to the people in your lives, you will feel more connected to them. Okay. And the telling of the truth isn't to elicit an outcome from them. It's the literal act of telling the truth. You think it's about how it's going to, it's not. It is, that is the actual physics of building a safe relationship with yourself. And then it all depends. It depends on the day. It depends on how resourced you are. It depends, right? We don't like that because we want a blueprint. We want it always to be like this. And it's not. It all depends. Today is the day where I don't want to help you move. And I think I might be able to do that in a good way, even though I would rather lay on my couch and eat pizza. Depends, right? But the truth would be, I hear that you want me to help you move. I want to be the person that does that. I love you. And I can come for two hours. Yes. So it's everything in the middle. And it's the truth.
- Speaker #1
I love it. Oh, my gosh, Erica, thank you so much. This was an incredibly helpful episode. And I love the way you talk about codependency. It is so real. It is clear that we teach what we most need to learn. And you have learned this. You have learned this and you continue to. And it's so different to hear from somebody who's in the thick of the work themselves, it's so freeing. So thank you.
- Speaker #0
There's no hierarchy. Don't be fooled. Everybody is just a person.
- Speaker #1
And with that, my little creative cutie, we set you free to be yourself and be present with all your emotions. Thank you so much, Erica.
- Speaker #0
Thank you, Lauren. What a treat.
- Speaker #1
Thanks for listening. And thanks to my guest, Erica Wright. For more info on Erica, follow her at Erica Wright, HCD. Visit her website, ericawright.org, to learn more about her counseling and various groups you can be a part of and check out her podcast, Healing Codependency with Erica Wright, wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks to Rachel Fulton for helping edit and associate produce this episode. Follow her at Rachel M. Fulton. Thanks to Liz Full for the show's theme music. Follow her at Liz Full. And again, thank you. If you like what you heard today, remember to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Google Play. or wherever you get your podcasts. Share the show with a friend and post about it on social media. Tag me at Lauren LaGrasso and at Unleash Your Inner Creative and I will repost to share my gratitude. Also tag the guests at Erica Wright HCD so she can share as well. My wish for you this week is that you embrace the path of healing and self-discovery with courage and compassion. Remember that your unpleasant feelings won't kill you and staying in relationship with yourself while being in relationship with others is more than possible. I love you and I believe in you. Talk with you next week.
