Transcription

• Speaker #0

  Hi, Creative Cutie. As you know, I've been very open and honest about my journey with codependency on the show, my struggles with it, my healing from it, my trying to understand it. And a few years ago on the pod, in 2022 actually, I was lucky enough to have Melody Beattie, author of Codependent No More on the podcast, and talk to her about codependency, learning to love ourselves, what self-love even is. is, and really what I was most thrilled to hear about, her creative process and how her creative process in writing helped her learn to love herself and helped her in her journey to healing from codependency. Today I'm resharing that episode with you. A couple days ago, Melody's daughter Nicole Beattie posted on her socials sharing that her mother had passed away on February 27th at 10 p.m. You should definitely read the post because it's quite beautiful. And it's just exemplary of the beautiful person that Melody was. But my heart shattered when I read the information. It brought me to tears. You know, she changed the lives of so many of us by giving us the language of what codependency is, by giving us community. And I just feel so grateful that I got to meet her, to spend an hour with her, sharing heart to heart. And More than anything, that she shared her truth with the world. And changed so many people's lives. Helped so many people heal. Shined a light where there was darkness. And told people that they didn't have to be ashamed. That they could come into the light. And that they could love themselves at least as much as they loved other people. Melody, thank you. I went on a walk today while I was... preparing to just do this little intro with you and I re-listened to the episode and the whole time I was on the walk I just felt her spirit come through and I think you're gonna feel that when you listen to it if you can as you listen to this episode I mean if you're driving or something else that's totally good too but if you can I highly recommend taking a walk through nature and I just felt like as I was walking and listening to this podcast, she was present in every flower and every pause. Like, I don't know, it was just quite beautiful. Her work changed my life. It helped so many people heal. And it's going to continue to do that for years to come, long after she's gone. I know Melody was a very deeply spiritual person, so I'm sure her spirit will find ways to be here with us from where she is. But... The most beautiful thing about creativity is that even after we die, we still get to be here. We leave our creative legacy and hers will heal people and help people really heal themselves for years to come. So thank you, Melody. I love you. And I'm so deeply grateful for your bravery, your creativity and your heart. Creative Cutie, enjoy this interview. I love you. Hi, Creative Cutie. Okay, I was so nervous to do today's interview because today's guest is one of my heroes and her work has truly changed my life. And it might change yours too. If you often feel like other people's problems become your problems, you're a people pleaser, you find yourself burnt out or exhausted from giving so much to others and feeling like you never get that in return, then you, like me, might be codependent or struggle with some codependent tendencies. Luckily, today's guest is one of America's most beloved self-help authors and teachers who will share what it truly means to be codependent and how to start healing from codependency. Welcome to Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LaGrasso. I'm Lauren LaGrasso. I'm an award-winning podcast host and producer, singer-songwriter, and multi-passionate creative. And this show is meant to give you tools to claim your right to creativity, take fear out of the driver's seat, and love. trust, and know yourself enough to pursue whatever it is that's on your heart. Today's guest is Melody Beattie. She's a New York Times bestselling author known for titles such as The Language of Letting Go, Playing It by Heart, The Grief Club, Beyond Codependency, and her most famous book, Codependent No More, which just came out with a revised and updated edition that you should check out. Codependent No More has sold over 7 million copies since its release in 1986. When it was released, it brought the mainstream a word for a phenomena that had previously lacked proper terminology and was mostly lived out in the shadows. Melody was and is a true pioneer in this field and has helped millions find healing. From our chat, you'll learn the true meaning of codependency and whether you might be codependent, how to heal codependency through creativity. what it really even means to love yourself and not turn on yourself, and how to trust the creative process even if it takes years. Also, before we get into it, I want to give a quick content warning for sexual assault and addiction. So if those topics are hard for you, please keep that in mind. Now here she is, the great Melody Beattie. Melody,

• Speaker #1

  I am...

• Speaker #0

  so honored to have you here. Thank you for coming on my show, Unleash Your Inner Creative. This is one of the great honors of my life.

• Speaker #1

  I'm so happy you invited me. I really am.

• Speaker #0

  Well, I know you have some amazing things to say about the creative process and you don't talk about that as much. So I'm super excited to dive in. But first, I would love to share my codependence origin story with you if you'd be open to hearing it.

• Speaker #1

  Go on then.

• Speaker #0

  So I was 22 when I moved to L.A. And I'm 100 percent Italian Catholic.

• Speaker #1

  You moved from

• Speaker #0

  Detroit. So, you know. Oh,

• Speaker #1

  geez.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, it's tough. I was going to ask you, are Midwesterners inherently codependent?

• Speaker #1

  We are. We're born that way. And then the society perpetuates it. Right.

• Speaker #0

  Totally. So I'd never heard that word before I moved to L.A. And I was having trouble because I had my whole self-worth tied up in action. which is what I was pursuing and that wasn't going well. So I felt like I was bad. And then my mom was back home taking care of my grandparents and I felt she was ruining her health in the way she was taking care of them. And so I was getting wrapped up in that and trying to get her to stop doing it that way so that she could preserve her health. But in the meantime, I was getting depressed and anxious and my own mental health was, you know, in the toilet. So that between the sadness from the acting career, which I think was rooted in some form of codependence, the relationship with my mom, which I know is rooted in codependence, and then just being lonely, that drove me to do my first therapy. And the therapist was sitting across from me. She goes, uh-huh, uh-huh. Have you ever considered that maybe you're codependent? And I was like, what? What's that? I thought that that was just called being Italian Catholic. I didn't know that that was a thing. Yeah, we just call it being alive where I'm from.

• Speaker #1

  In Minnesota, we called it being Catholic.

• Speaker #0

  Yes, exactly. So much of it is rooted in Catholicism or they're both very intertwined. So I learned from that and she taught me, you know, some coping mechanisms to like focus on myself. And I thought I was healed after that little jaunt and therapy. But then shortly after, I found myself dating a guy who was an alcoholic and had anger issues. And I was in the throes of codependency yet again. And then finally, three years ago, I ended that relationship. And after sitting on your book for almost a decade, I was finally able to read it because I was ready to take it in and heal. And so today, here we are. And it's just a really beautiful full circle moment. So I want to thank you for your work and what an integral part it's been and is now in my healing journey.

• Speaker #1

  I'm glad. I'm glad. It was very hard being on this planet. before we had that information about codependency, because everyone was pretty much suffering in a dysfunctional silence.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. And they didn't have words for it.

• Speaker #1

  No, we didn't have any words for what it was. I don't like the word codependency. I don't, because when you hear it, it doesn't mean anything. But yet it's a word that stick to describe this very sticky, complex situation that we can stumble into. And that it's our job to work our way out of when we're ready.

• Speaker #0

  I know you say you don't like the word codependency, but just for our purposes, what does it mean to you? Like, what are you trying to get across when you say codependent no more?

• Speaker #1

  That we need to learn to love ourselves at least as much as we love others. Usually codependency is characterized by this obsessive focus on someone or something outside of ourselves while being very resistant to loving. or caring for ourselves.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. And, you know, you say that the core of alcoholism, addiction, and codependency is unresolved grief or trauma. Can you share a little bit on this and like how this manifests?

• Speaker #1

  I know in my life, I don't know if I would have been an addict and alcoholic anyway, but in my life, it was medication. I was 11 years old coming home from school and having a straight shot of whiskey to get me through the second half of my day. I didn't know. I mean, there was so much familial abuse, neighborhood abuse. I mean, it just, it was like you took your life in your hands and I didn't live in a bad neighborhood, but I'd babysit. And then the dad would rape me on the way home. I didn't even have words for what I had gone through. I mean, it's like, what is this? What am I supposed to do with this? You couldn't talk about it within it. We didn't have the language yet. And I was so grateful to be part of bringing this language, helping to bring this language to the world because it meant so much to me. It was my escape from this prison because it was like I'd been in this prison inside my own body. ever since I'd been born. And I was just reacting to this set of impulses, which is what most of us do as humans on this planet. We're not much different than the creatures. We get an impulse and we take an action. And when we're not aligned, our impulses can lead us into some pretty destructive actions.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you for sharing all that. First of all, what does being aligned actually look like or feel like more? directly.

• Speaker #1

  Peace. We're not always happy, but we have a sense of peace and appropriateness for life. We're at home in our own body. Most of the time we reside in it with a great deal of comfort and we take the time to understand our impulses. You know, am I just reacting because someone triggered me? Am I taking an action I actually want to take? And I think the other thing that does us in is a sense of urgency we have. When we have so much urgency, we don't live our lives creatively. We can't. We're just reacting with impulses. The most helpful thing I've done for myself since writing Codependent No More was beginning a dedicated, and I mean once or twice a day as needed, practice of meditation. I'm not trying to help myself. I'm trying to help my soul. I'm trying to stay connected to my own soul. That's where all the light and all the guidance we need comes. It'll help us find our path to well-being. It'll help us find our next creative project. But if we can't hear ourselves because we have so many impulses, if we're so urgent, we're not going to hear ourselves.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. And the urgency is another way of running away from yourself, you know, filling up your schedules, being busy all the time.

• Speaker #1

  It's distracting.

• Speaker #0

  It's distracting. It's another form of codependency or whatever word we're going to use next that I'm sure you will invent. Yeah, I think it's so beautiful because when I started the show, I was like, I'm going to help people be creative. But what I realized is it's a lot more holistic than that. You know, you can't really unleash your inner creative, your deepest self in that way. If you don't know, love and trust yourself. And the older I get, the more astounded I am by the fact that everything in all of life is connected.

• Speaker #1

  It is. And it's all organic.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  That's what I love about Little by Slowly. Anything that we want to do with an explosion probably isn't going to work. We've all heard this so many times. It's a process. It's a process. But who wants to sink into a process? Oh, it doesn't sound very exciting, does it? Because it means... going through our feelings, making mistakes, having to wait. I think the biggest barrier to creativity I find in younger people today is they're not patient and they're proud of it. Patience is the one attribute. Persistence and patience, the two Ps that I would say have enabled me to achieve a degree of success in my creative career are those two things, patience and persistence.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I mean, that's so beautiful and for sure one of my hardest lessons in life that I keep having to relearn. You know, it's like I keep getting to this level and I'm like, ah, now I've made it. Now I've arrived. And then something else knocks me down again. And I guess that's all of life, right? You reach one level and then you have to level up. But a couple things you said struck me so much. There's been a big thing with me where I know something and I know I'm supposed to do something, but then I beat myself up for not doing it. And then I finally do it. when I'm ready. And I'm like, oh, I could have just not beat myself up that whole time because I did it in the right timing anyway. But I loved how you talked about, you know, in two different ways. One with your marriage that you basically it was like a three year process of letting go. And then finally, one day you did detach. But it took those three years. And I really related to that. And the other way you talked about it was you sometimes will sit on an idea or like be writing the book in your head for five years before you actually write it.

• Speaker #1

  That's pretty common for me to take five years. It's like I'm not a baker. But if you bake. bread, if you don't let it rise, it doesn't work. And I found the same thing to be true in my writing and with my creativity. I don't just grab an idea and then run with it. We need to let it rise. We need to know we can be happy whether we ever bring that idea to fruition or not. We will never, ever, ever be any happier when we get what we want than we were before we got it.

• Speaker #0

  Isn't that the truth? It's an inside job.

• Speaker #1

  Consistently. And to my great chagrin.

• Speaker #0

  I was going to ask, do you get like any less annoyed by that or you just have peace with the annoyance?

• Speaker #1

  I would call it peace with the annoyance. Okay.

• Speaker #0

  It's like,

• Speaker #1

  oh, that's back again. But I'm 74. I've been going through what I call this process for many, many, many years. And it's a repeated going through it. I mean. Every step of the way, we need what happens on this journey. We don't just get an idea and act on it. There is a holistic, like you said, process going on underneath that brings life, that needs the idea we have and helps it to rise so that we can bake it. It takes faith. It takes persistence and joy. We should be finding a modicum of joy with our process too. whether we're in conflict, whether we're working on something, whether we're thinking about finding our next thing, if we can find a place of joy and fill our cup with that, then whatever we do creatively will be filled with that joy and with that love. If we're working from fear and desperation, that's the cup we're bringing to our work. So, I mean, we're our own cup that we bring to whatever we do. And so to pay attention. to take that walk, to focus on nature and to slow down for the love of God, this country needs to slow down. What are we racing toward and how does it help?

• Speaker #0

  It's not helping long-term. It's that moment. I mean, it's another high, right?

• Speaker #1

  It's another distraction. It's another distraction. By the time COVID hit, people were going so fast. So very, very, very fast. During COVID was the first time I've been able to think and to hear myself think and to hear what my soul had to say. There was just so much noise and cacophony going on. The collective consciousness can be a great distraction. Our phones can be a distraction. If I scroll on my phone, I am effectively connecting myself with the nervous energy of almost every other human being on this planet. We're all connecting our nervous systems. And our nervous systems are fried. And so it's like sticking a finger in a light socket. Whatever we do that, it's not going to work. And I don't know why I think it will. It doesn't work. It doesn't bring peace. It doesn't bring joy. Looking through the TV for that next thing. I mean, those are all ways to distract ourselves from feeling whatever it is we feel and doing the inner work to find peace right now. When I can let go. of everything I tell myself I think I should be doing. I've got to get this done. I'll give you a little example. Okay, before this interview today, I had a letter that was very difficult that I needed to write. It was with a business I was having a conflict with. I wanted to just spout all this angry stuff, but that's not effective for every action. There's an equal and opposite reaction. So I spent three hours getting organized, writing this letter, and then I bet. Yeah, I'm going to get it out to the mailbox. So I printed it out. I found the envelopes. And just as I walked outside with the stamped letter, three of them, actually, the mailman pulled up and he had come early today. And I really needed to get it in the mail today. And I thought, you know, that's perfect. I can stay out of my head and go with the own flow of my spirit in an attitude of non-resistance. The little things work. bigger things work. When I can let go of my need to control the outcome, because control is the antithesis of creativity. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  How do you do that?

• Speaker #1

  I try and sneak up on myself.

• Speaker #0

  Like a boo?

• Speaker #1

  No, like, oh, I'm going to do this very quietly. I'm not going to let my other alter ego get in there and start messing with things. It's a very gentle process. When I wrote this, truly revised and updated Codependent No More, because it wasn't just a superficial effort. We went over every word twice in that book. And anything that made me cringe, I took out. I mean, it was like looking through a yearbook from high school when it had been 40 years since you'd been in high school. And adding a chapter to that book, it just worked so beautifully. I went back to when I sat in my little office behind the washer and dryer with the kids running through the house screaming. And I went back to when I wrote The Current. chapter 21 in the book, which was chapter 20 then. And I thought, I remember, I knew there was something missing, but I didn't know what it was. I mean, the other chapters, it's like, yeah, that goes in here. I didn't know what the missing piece was. So I thought, well, can't write it then, can I? So I wrote what I knew and turned it in. 36 years later, I realized what it was missing. And it was missing the trauma and anxiety part. comes from growing up in an alcoholic family, from living around alcoholism and abuse, from basically having a fairly rugged life. And I don't know, since 9-11, I think we've had cultural trauma. I really believe that our world has changed and people's baseline has changed. And as I said at the beginning of this interview, the most important thing I've done for myself since writing Codependent No More was a dedicated... practice of meditation. Where I am now, I can tell when my 20 minutes is almost up because my whole metabolism will change. It will shift. I can feel my mental energy shifting. And I don't know why I didn't do it earlier. Meditation used to really annoy me. Like if I'd sit and try and stare at a flower and meditate, I'd end up just getting more annoyed than I was when I started. I had so much anxiety. I didn't know. like many people, I didn't know it was anxiety, this driving impulsive force. It would set in whenever I was at a red light. I mean, there were times throughout my life I could feel it. I just didn't know what to do with it.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. I mean, wait, can we talk about patience for a second? Because you were 36 years patient on that chapter. Talk about trust in the creative process. You knew something was missing. but you trusted it enough to wait 36 years for the right time for it to come through.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  That's incredible.

• Speaker #1

  I'm learning there are two different kinds of writers. There are writers who really love having written, getting it done, turning it in. I love the process of writing. I am absolutely thunderstruck still and in love with the creative process. The act of writing brings soul. much joy when I hit that sweet spot. You know, I don't care if it's taken me 37, 40 years. It is just, I love it. I love it more today than I did in the beginning.

• Speaker #0

  So can we talk about this? Because I kind of, I would love to go back to when you were first writing this, because there's so many interesting things about how you did this. First, how did you discover what codependence or codependency was so that you could share it with others?

• Speaker #1

  Well, very uncomfortably.

• Speaker #0

  Like everything.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, like everything else of meaning in my life. My AA sponsor, a woman, had introduced me to a man, my ex. Well, he's deceased now and the father of my kids. And so that was kind of like, well, my sponsor introduced me. That's kind of like a write off on this whole thing. She's signing off on it. We got married six months later. I was pregnant one month later. And meanwhile. I was two and a half years by then out of treatment. And I wanted to work as a counselor, I wanted to help other people the way I had been helped. And my ex worked, well, his family started a major treatment center in Minnesota, they started many of them, actually. So finally, after I couldn't get a job anywhere else. And that was back in the history of the women's movement. I mean, we take so many of our freedoms. Our God-given freedoms were granted, but women haven't had those all the way along. Women have gone through their own struggle to find their freedom. So I couldn't find a job in the chemical dependency field doing anything other than typing. That was what they all wanted me to do was to type. So David and his boss finally relented and offered me a job. They had come into a crisis. They said, if we want to keep our funding, we have to do something for the families. And Lorraine was explaining that to me while I was sitting there listening. And I had this vision. of counseling a room full of my mother. I went, I don't know what to do with them. They said, we don't either. And you're new here. That's why you get the job. So that's how I learned. I had learned the hard way from living with my mom. And then I got thrown into a group of them. But as I listened to these stories, two things started to happen. I listened to these women and their struggles. I watched one woman die of old age when she was 35. five. Her husband had gone to jail for the umpteenth time, leaving her with all the kids. But something else was happening under the surface because I began to see that this man I had married, that I had all these doubts, all these questions, all these times he would disappear, all my suspicions. There was just something not right. And so that began to come out during the groups as well. I couldn't talk about it. I mean, you don't go to a group. as a counselor and then talk about your own unresolved problems. But all this was tick, tick, ticking in my mind as I went. And I kept going, oh my God, what kind of a mess am I in? You know, we didn't have the word codependency yet. We called them significant others and they weren't significant to anyone, including themselves. And I was walking down that same path. So I did groups there for a couple years. And then I started doing groups at other treatment centers. But the whole field was so dirty. There was so much sexual abuse going on. There were so many things we didn't have the words for yet. And we were in the process while I was getting the information on codependency and trying to figure this out. So I just kept showing up. I kept taking notes and waiting, not even waiting. I let go. I was just living my life fully then. I queried quite a few publishers. There was only one I wanted. I wanted Hazleton back then. They were about a 40-minute drive from me, and they turned it down. Everyone turned it down. So I just packed it all up, put it in the garage, and I was writing for a little daily newspaper in Stillwater by then. And so I started writing about codependency for the paper whenever I could. I didn't know that one of the people on the editorial staff at Hazleton. lived in Stillwater, read that paper, and he went to battle for me at Hazleton. They changed their mind. They came back. They said, we want to see the whole book. And so that was the birth of Codependent No More. It was very messy.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. A gory birth, as many beautiful creative projects are born out of a gory birth. But there's so many beautiful things here. And it's like, when you were in those groups, you were just the same way you write books now by thinking about them for years. You were setting up the structure. You were finding the stories. You were realizing, hey, even though I'm not, because something you spell out in the book many times is I'm not a guru. I'm not an expert. I'm a person who's lived this experience. So all I can do is share my own experience and hope it resonates with you. It's so beautiful. But I want to ask you about that in particular, because I think a lot of people feel imposter syndrome around that. right? Where they've had the experience, they've lived it, but they think because they don't have some sort of credential saying that they're an expert in that experience, they don't have any right to talk about it.

• Speaker #1

  How sick of experts are you? I am so sick of experts. The minute anyone calls themselves or identifies as an expert, I shut off.

• Speaker #0

  Right. Because you can't trust them.

• Speaker #1

  No, you can't.

• Speaker #0

  I want to talk to somebody who's lived it. But I think I used to feel like a fraud because I'm like, why am I hosting a show called Unleash Your Inner Creative when I don't feel creatively unleashed? I'm like, well, maybe I'm the best person to host that show because I'm trying to be.

• Speaker #1

  And when you discover the bits, you'll bring them and you'll know it's a really good bit.

• Speaker #0

  Right. to bring to someone.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And you can be honest about it. So I think it's just such a beautiful thing that you're dispelling for people. But another thing that I love about this story is that, and that's something you're really open about in the book, is that you went on welfare to write this book. And it was at a time when you'd just broken up with your husband, you had two small children, you needed to care for them. And first of all, what a beautiful healing thing for a codependent that you accepted that kind of help. But second, I really love that the government was the patron of your art and that you, you know, it's pretty.

• Speaker #0

  I know. I brought my little contract into the welfare office. I got a $500 advance and I said, I have this. This is all I've got. I cannot work at the newspaper and write this book, please. And I was gobsmacked when they said, yes, I was just thrilled.

• Speaker #1

  And. And for somebody else who's out there who's in a similar situation where they want to bring something to light, but they're afraid to ask for help in whatever way it is. What advice would you give to them for how they can settle that piece of them down that doesn't feel worthy of it and just accept what's being given?

• Speaker #0

  Meditate. Meditate. It's the only time we can hear our voice. It's the only time we can hear our soul. And we don't even have to. meditate on where can I get the help I need? It's a meditation on show me my next step. Show me in a way I can understand what my next step should be on this journey. Because it's all in the end, this very long journey of many, many, many, many, many, many steps. And so the more guidance, the more centered I can be when I take each step, the more confident I can be in that journey.

• Speaker #1

  I know you're a very spiritual person. What role do you think spirituality plays in bringing through creativity, writing? What does it play for you?

• Speaker #0

  Pretty much everything. It's like the yeast that raises the bread and prepares it to bake. It adds something. And I don't like to wear my spirituality on my sleeve. I'm afraid in public, pretty much, to say God too much. or even at all anymore. I mean, that's become like a taboo word. But my spirituality is everything. I can't imagine writing anything without connecting with my soul and my source. I just can't imagine that I would create anything worthy without doing that. I mean, it tells me I'm on my path. I'm doing what my next thing is. My biggest waste of time in this life has been butting heads with reality about what I should be writing next. Why can't I write this? I really want to write this. Well, I don't have anything to say to her. In the end, I don't.

• Speaker #1

  What's the difference between acceptance and controlling, though? Because it sounds like what you're talking about right now is like instead of being like, oh, I should be doing that and that's controlling, you're accepting who you really are and what you really have to say.

• Speaker #0

  And that's no easy task. Getting down to what it is we really have to say, what we really want to create what we really want to do is a huge challenge. And so often we think, well, that's not much. I mean, I was embarrassed about having written so much about codependency. I really was. It was like, why can't I write about a near-death experience or some marvelous discovery? Why do I have to write about codependency? It's not a glamorous topic. It's the little things that we have a great deal of passion. for. We don't need some big explosion with everyone clapping and bombs going off. And we can have so much passion, sometimes for the smallest ideas. That's what will unleash our creativity. Not judging our ideas as being too small or insignificant or not glamorous enough or too plain. A simple idea that we have an extraordinary amount of passion for can rock the world.

• Speaker #1

  How do you know when you're in flow?

• Speaker #0

  I don't always know when I'm in it, but I sure do know when I'm not. That's all I can say. It takes a lot of trying and effort. But when you're in the flow, you know it and it just works. It just goes and you get what you need at the next turn. I am absolutely thunderstruck by the creative process still and what a joy it is to be included in it and to take part in it.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. I always say creativity is your birthright. And I think it makes me really sad that some people don't label themselves as creative because I think everybody is just in different ways.

• Speaker #0

  Right. We can be creative making a sandwich, making a meal, baking, decorating our home, raising our kids, being a secretary. Whatever we do, we can bring our creative self to it and should be in the now, right now, right here and now. Am I fully present? Am I listening to myself? Am I listening to the person I'm with? Am I valuing myself? Am I valuing the person I'm with? It's a lot of little moments in life that make for a grand project in a grand life.

• Speaker #1

  And how do you feel that creativity is particularly healing for somebody who's struggling with codependency? Like if they can get to the pure part of creativity, not the part that's doing it because they hope somebody else sees them and will tell them that they're worthy. If they can get to the pure part where it's all about the expression and the message they're bringing forth, how can that help heal?

• Speaker #0

  You'll never go back. You won't go back and you won't settle for external approval. You'll know it needs to come from in here. It needs to come from in here. It needs to be grounded in here. And then the ironic thing is, you know, the ends never justify the means. We need to stop judging our work. for its success or its lack of it, and just be open to this journey. Anyone that's done anything wonderful has more than likely failed 30 times that amount of projects. When I sat down to write my first book, I was going to write romance novels. And I thought, after struggling with it and doing some writing, I thought, I can't do that. I have never had an act of romance. And I wrote Codependent No More instead. I mean, everything we do becomes a touchstone on this path, doesn't it?

• Speaker #1

  It was a romance novel because it was a book about true romance, which is the one you have with yourself.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly. Exactly. You know, TV has really ruined us about love.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Say more.

• Speaker #0

  Why do I need to? I mean, we can live our whole lives trying to have what we imagine to be the perfect relationship. In a movie we watched 10 years ago where the people aren't even real.

• Speaker #1

  Yes.

• Speaker #0

  And then we compare our lives and our romances to that. And then it just gets really ugly, doesn't it?

• Speaker #1

  Well, yeah, it gets messy inside because anytime a conflict comes up where you're like, well, this must be screwed. I got to go.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I'm out of here. I'm out of here.

• Speaker #1

  Blame yourself and you go in and turn on yourself. So either way, it's not good. And you're 100 percent right. But I just want to circle back to one other thing that, you know. has to do with your creative process that I think is so beautiful and doing it really for your own self-satisfaction and expression. I love that when you were first writing your book, you said, I thought about two or three people would read it. And it ends up being read by, I've seen different numbers, seven, eight million plus people. How do you think that telling yourself, okay, if nobody reads it, if only a few people read it, that's still good enough for me, actually helps. it reach those millions? Or how did it help you?

• Speaker #0

  It helps me writing to one person. It helps me keep it real. It helps me say what I need to say without putting on any airs. So I'm always writing to one person, maybe at most two. And it's just, it's better that way. I also like to write my intentions. I think intentions are just so key and so critical. in life and in the creative process. And I was very clear with myself before I wrote Codependent No More, I wanted this to be a book that a therapist could hand a client who came into their office and say, after you read this, we can talk because it would save so many hours. So many, many, many hours. That was an intention with writing that book. Of course, I want to write well. I want to write clearly. I like to write with a little humor. you know, as appropriate. But we need our intentions with whatever we do. We need to be as clear as we can be. We need to put our intentions in writing and then be open. Our intentions may change. We may decide, well, that's not really in the end. That's not what I want to do with this. I want it to be this or I want it to be that. But intentions with creativity is extremely important.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And it's interesting because intentions are so different than goals. Intention.

• Speaker #0

  It's softer.

• Speaker #1

  It's a breeze. A goal is a gust of wind that's going to knock you over. And intention is a breeze that can help move you along, but ultimately it's an ally, not a foe.

• Speaker #0

  I know. Goals. I used to be a much bigger proponent of goals. Now I'm much stronger on intentions and the act of, in softer words, like lean into a project. I don't have to get all prepared and started. I can gently lean into it and become one with that project. I can let my energy bond with that project. It's much. much gentler than accomplishing our goals.

• Speaker #1

  Right. I mean, it goes along with a lot of the other things you're talking about right now, which is like the age of Aquarius. It's again, everything is everything everywhere. You just can't escape. It's like, you know, who you are in one place is who you are everywhere. I think that this gentler way of being, it's really hard, especially as somebody who's struggled with codependence because you want to just jam your way through everything. and control your way through everything.

• Speaker #0

  Because that's what we've lived our lives. That's what we've had to live our lives.

• Speaker #1

  What do you do when you start? I mean, I know you're going to say meditate, but like, okay, let's say you can't meditate. You're out in the world and you find yourself starting to clutch your life again. Like how do you start opening your hand up to allow?

• Speaker #0

  Probably the best way we can. I mean, usually wherever we go, there's nature around us. Nature is a great help with relaxing. I deliberately, if I'm going to seek anything out on television, I seek out something that's going to make me laugh. We need to remember to laugh. Yeah. If I say anything more, I'm lying.

• Speaker #1

  I one time heard Cheryl Strayed say, I've never gone on a long walk and felt worse after. And I totally agree with that. So, yeah, just getting grounded and being around trees, even if they're just random sporadic ones on your block.

• Speaker #0

  I have fallen in love. with the tree across from my house. It's up on a hill and the winds have shaped it. It's been totally shaped by the winds. And every time I look at that beautiful tree and it protects so many birds in it. And I look at it and I think it's like us. Life has shaped this tree. If you take one experience away from it, it won't have the same shape. You know, its past has created its present. And it's kind of that way with us, isn't it?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, it is.

• Speaker #0

  And it's enough. We're enough. We're not defective. We're not deficient. We are fit for life.

• Speaker #1

  So circling to feeling at home with yourself, because I know this is a big part of healing from all the things we're talking about. How do we not turn on ourselves when we're down? Let's say the creative project went out. We had an intention for it. We felt good about it. But then we still feel the disappointment if it doesn't get the reception we wanted. How do we not turn on ourselves and say, oh, well, it's because we weren't good enough. Time for Diet Coke. Yes, yes, yes.

• Speaker #0

  Da-da-da-da-da. I really love it. Love what you love.

• Speaker #1

  Diet Coke.

• Speaker #0

  Get runway ready. A chance to win the ultimate shopping experience plus hundreds of prizes curated by Kate Moss. Promo packs in store 18 plus twos and Cs visit coat.co.uk slash break. Well, you're talking about two different steps in the process.

• Speaker #1

  Okay. Take me through.

• Speaker #0

  You're talking about first having a feeling of disappointment. Yeah. And then you're talking about turning that into self-hatred.

• Speaker #1

  Yes.

• Speaker #0

  So I would suggest stopping it with the feeling, letting ourselves have that feeling and The other thing I've become aware of over the years is that I will turn on myself in a heartbeat. I will display every attribute of the person that treated me worst the whole time I was growing up. I will say to myself all the horrendous things this person said to me. It's very important, I believe, to not turn on ourselves in our low moments. I mean, to really be there for ourselves the way we would be for anyone. else. We are very, very, very loving, caring people. We know how to love a person. We just need to choose to give that to ourselves on a regular basis. Who are we to want someone to love us when we can't love ourselves? That's a very empty cup. And it feels good when we love ourselves. It feels really good. We might get scared and think, well, if I can do this so good, I don't need anyone else. Well,

• Speaker #1

  yeah. What is self-love, though? I talk about it every week. I talk about it every day. I talk about it every week on the podcast. What? actually is it? Because I'm like, I think I say you can't really fully unleash unless you know yourself, love yourself and trust yourself. I definitely feel like I know myself. The love and trust, though, are pretty shaky. What is self-love?

• Speaker #0

  My editor said the same thing to me. What are you even talking about?

• Speaker #1

  I walk down the street. I'm like, I think I love myself. But I'm like, do I love myself or do I just get like hyped up on myself sometimes? But I degrade myself just as quickly.

• Speaker #0

  I'm not talking about. ego. I'm not talking about narcissism. I'm talking about going back again, people can time travel with me to the time when we were a very young child, right? Embracing that child. I mean, really getting in the same way we would if we had had a baby that we loved and nurtured only that baby we're loving and nurturing is ourselves. And we don't have to get sickening about it. We don't have to carry teddy bears around. We don't have to do any of that. No, but we need to be loving to ourselves. And it starts by talking. For many of us, just starting by talking much better to ourselves can really spin things around. And mindfulness, when do we turn on ourselves? Can we tell when we turn on ourselves? Can we tell when we're maybe just putting up with ourself? Like, yeah, you can come along with me. I don't really want you around. But, I mean... How are we treating ourselves? What is our soul and heart response to who we are as a human? That can be very challenging to get into a rhythm of really saying, yes, I love myself as much as I love others. The problem isn't loving ourselves more than we love others. It's loving ourselves at least as much. I mean, we are the people that will go to the ends of the earth and back again for someone else if we think it will help. Will we do that for ourselves?

• Speaker #1

  The most powerful thing that I got out of that is like when you are in that state where you start turning on yourself is that, like you said, you have to time travel to your little self, to the origin of the pain and say, hey, little one, it's OK. You're OK.

• Speaker #0

  It's OK. It's OK.

• Speaker #1

  You're safe with me.

• Speaker #0

  Whatever their ups or downs are sideways, all of that. Just let ourselves know, like you said, that we're safe. with ourselves. We're not going to berate ourselves the way that significant person did our entire lives. I don't know. Why do we end up with the worst voice that we heard? And that's the one we recreate, the most painful voice, the harshest voice. That's the one I, that's my go-to. Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  I don't know, but I feel like it's because we're trying in our own weird way to heal that relationship. It's like. Maybe if I prove that voice wrong in this iteration of my life, I can finally prove I'm enough.

• Speaker #0

  That could be. I know with dads, that can be a big thing, trying to conquer the dad that left us when we were two. I don't think we have any idea how much of our adult life is formulated by the time we're seven. Right.

• Speaker #1

  Well, they say, isn't everything kind of decided? Like your emotional and mental health is kind of solidified by that age, right?

• Speaker #0

  And our story is. Most of us have our story about why these things happened and what it's going to mean for the rest of our lives. Our story is probably the first thing we need to think about rewriting.

• Speaker #1

  I wonder, because I really believe that creativity is deeply linked to the inner child and the younger self and can be very healing for the little one. How did writing this book and all your subsequent books help heal? that younger version of Melody that so needed somebody to tell her she was enough?

• Speaker #0

  I don't know that I was looking for my work to tell me I was enough. I was looking for that to come from me. And I had to make a decision. I mean, I would get very almost masculine in my efforts. Like, yeah, I'm going to do this. This is going to get done. I'll do all the work I need to do. Yeah, I'm the sole breadwinner. I mean, a lot of it was just rooted in doing the next thing. day in and day out and pushing forward, just pushing forward. I don't push anymore.

• Speaker #1

  What does that feel like?

• Speaker #0

  Pretty liberating. Very liberating. I mean, sometimes I need to hurry a little bit, but when I find myself pushing myself, I go, okay, you need a break. It looks like you need a break. We know we are the great carers, lovers and givers of the world. We know how to love people. We just have to make a concrete. decision to do that for ourselves, no matter what. It's got to be the unconditional love we never had.

• Speaker #1

  What is unconditional love? What does that look like in practice?

• Speaker #0

  You said it earlier. It's okay if you fail. It's okay if you have a bad day. It's okay if you feel really shitty. It's okay to be who you are in this moment, each of us, in all the messiness, in all the unrehearsedness, in all of it. It's just okay.

• Speaker #1

  Is part of the trouble with all of this that it's actually, it's really simple. It's just hard to do. Everything we're talking about. the prescription for getting at home within ourselves. It's actually simple actions that are difficult.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, simple shifts. But just because it's simple doesn't mean it's easy.

• Speaker #1

  Very difficult, simple shifts.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, very difficult, challenging, simple shifts in our attitude toward ourself, toward how we're going to treat ourself in our worst moments. I mean, we can all be good to ourselves during our best moments. But what about during our worst moments when we're really down? That's my worst thing. I can really, really get on a roll with myself. It's probably been the journey of my lifetime to love myself at this level. We start where we start and we work up. I didn't love myself my whole life at the level I'm loving myself now. So however, we're loving ourselves today. It's okay. It's enough. Just the mindfulness towards, yeah, I'm going to stay with myself. on this journey. I'm not going to abandon myself. I'm not going to turn on myself. I'm going to be there for me because when I'm there for me, I can be there for others. And then I'll quietly make decisions about, do I have something helpful I can do in the world right now? Is there something I have to offer that could be of value to others? I don't know. The key, the key for creativity is getting calm and peaceful enough to find out what. we're genuinely curious about. Cannot be creative without being curious.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And you can't be creative in chaos.

• Speaker #0

  Not very well anyway, can you? Not well.

• Speaker #1

  Not in a true way, like in your writing. Yeah, that's a big thing that has been coming through and that keeps coming up through our chat is that when there's chaos, it's just a distraction from the truth.

• Speaker #0

  Always. That's why I keep going back to meditation. If you want to be really creative, meditate, meditate. Let the creativity spring out of you like a geyser. Don't try and beat it out of yourself.

• Speaker #1

  So let's go back to this new chapter that you meditated on for 36 years.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  How do you think they help solve the puzzle of codependence in a way that the other writing didn't?

• Speaker #0

  I don't know how I could even approach the subject without broaching anxiety. and PTSD. But I had to because we didn't know about those things back then, didn't I? I didn't really have a choice. Now I can go in and the dough has risen. It was ready to bake and it just exploded so naturally and so beautifully. And I knew it was magical when I was doing it. I think the chapter that I put in Codependent No More, the new one, is the most magical chapter I've ever written in my life. So again, we get back to patience. The longer we let the bread rise, the better it is.

• Speaker #1

  So Melody, you are an incredible human. I just so appreciate everything you've shared about your own journey and how you've really created from what you know. I think it's the most beautiful example for all of us in the world on the importance of telling our own story and how just telling your own story and sharing your own experience. can be so healing for other people. I have a final question for you. If you and the version of yourself who was writing the first iteration of the book back in the 80s, were standing in the same room and looking at each other, what do you think she would say to you today and why?

• Speaker #0

  I think we just do a high five. I do. That's what I see myself doing, a high five. And maybe a hug, too. Don't need to use words. It has been a remarkable journey. And you haven't even read the next book yet.

• Speaker #1

  I know. And this one's about spirituality, right?

• Speaker #0

  Living by spirit. Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  I can't wait. I mean, I wanted to ask you all about, because you said this amazing thing on another interview I was listening to. You said when you were 12, you said to God, if this is your idea of love, you and I have a problem. Because my life so far has not felt like love. If this is how you're going to handle my life, then I'll take the reins.

• Speaker #0

  I'll take it from here.

• Speaker #1

  Because I think I can do a better job. And I just think, like, what happens when we try to take over for God?

• Speaker #0

  Well, it's probably different. I don't know that it's better. But we're here to live messy lives. Anytime we're living so controlled that we never have a problem, we never have a pain, we never have a frustration, we never have a challenge. I'm not sure we're actually living. It's those things that create a life. It's the wind that creates a tree across the street from me. It's the wind that creates our growth. our problems, our deep pain. And I've had crushingly deep pain. I've been just as far down the mountain as I have been up. A little by slowly, it all makes a life in the end. Another thing that could really help us too is not being so afraid of our feelings. A feeling is just an emotion. It's like a cloud in the sky. We can let it pass by. We can identify it and let it go. We don't have to hire a band. But we'll learn all these things if we keep going. And it's not when I learn it. It's not what I tell anyone. It's when a human learns something and sees the value in what they've learned. And we can only do that for ourselves. I mean, curiosity, patience, and meditation will get us anywhere we need to go. I promise.

• Speaker #1

  Okay. Let us all be patient, curious, and consistently meditating.

• Speaker #0

  Yes. At least 20 minutes a day, at least, at least. I don't know how anyone can get by during these times without it.

• Speaker #1

  That's what I say. I don't know how people are just white knuckling their way through life right now. I couldn't do it.

• Speaker #0

  I couldn't either. It's going to be very interesting. You know, lest we forget, the reason we've been given all these tools is because we're going to need them. So when the going gets tough, take out your toolbox.

• Speaker #1

  Now is the time to cultivate that spiritual and emotional toolbox. Feel all your feelings because when you feel everything, you can do anything.

• Speaker #0

  And unleash your inner creator.

• Speaker #1

  Thank you for listening and thanks to my guest, Melody Beattie. For more info on Melody, follow her at AuthorMelodyBeattie and visit her website, MelodyBeattie.com. That's where you can find the new edition of Codependent No More, therapeutic resources, and even her daily meditations and wisdom readings. Also, if you liked this episode, check out the awesome episode of the podcast I executive produced, which is one of the great honors of my life. It's called We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle. The hosts did such an incredible job and they had a great, beautiful, deep, soulful conversation with Melody on the show. So I highly recommend that if you're interested in continuing to learn about codependency and how to start healing from it. Thanks to Rachel Fulton for helping edit this episode of Unleash. You can follow her. at Rachie Fulton. Thanks Liz Full for the show's theme music. Follow her at Liz Full. And again, thank you. If you like what you heard today, remember to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Share the show with a friend and post about it on social media. Tag me at Lauren LaGrasso and at Unleash Your Inner Creative, and I will repost to share my gratitude. And also tag the guest at AuthorMelodyBeattie so she can share as well. My wish for you this week is you find new ways in your life to come home to yourself and remember your inherent worthiness. If that means finding time to meditate, taking a walk, exploring your creative passions, or even reading one of Melody's books, whatever it is, I hope you do it because you deserve to come home. I love you and I believe in you. Talk with you next week.