- Speaker #0
Why do so many of us feel so frustrated,
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so scared and bewildered? And how can we feel better?
- Speaker #0
Well, for me, Martha Beck.
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And me, Rowan Mangan.
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Our job is to live according to our deepest truths, even when it means looking weird.
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Join us as we laugh and chat and stumble our way towards a better world here on this podcast.
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Did we mention laugh? I mean, what's the point of transformation if it isn't fun? So check out Bewildered,
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the podcast for people trying to figure it out. Do you want to make creative projects that make a difference in the world? Work that shows the true beauty of humanity and the goodness in the world? If this sounds like you, you may fear that it might not reach the audience it deserves because the algorithm seems to reward divisive and fear-mongering content. But that's not always the case. Today's guest is proof that there is a way forward for good. She will teach you how to create and grow your work from an authentic and optimistic point of view. Welcome to Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LaGrasso. I'm Lauren LaGrasso. I'm a Webby Award-winning podcast host and producer, singer-songwriter, public speaker, and creative coach. This show sits at the intersection of creativity, mental health, self-development, and spirituality, and it is meant to give you tools to love, trust, and know yourself enough to claim your right to creativity and pursue whatever it is that's on your heart. Today's guest is Lucia Nell. She's the vice president of Upworthy, which is a media platform dedicated to sharing the best of humanity with the world. During her tenure at Upworthy, she developed their Instagram account, which now has 5 million followers. Her work has been covered in places such as the New York Times, Glamour, Vogue, Fast Company, and the mental health publication, Made of Millions. Lucia is also the co-author of Upworthy's book, Good People, Stories from the Best of Humanity, which is out now. It is so beautiful. Please do yourself a favor and get a copy. I wanted to have Lucia on the podcast because her belief in the internet's power to unite rather than divide is inspiring and so needed right now. I love Upworthy and everything they stand for. Lucia has a depth of knowledge on seeing and sharing stories of human goodness and how these stories can profoundly impact our personal well-being and inspire positive change. She's also just a really cool person, so I'm excited for you to get to know her. From today's chat, you'll learn how to counteract mean world syndrome with positive content, tips for creating better boundaries with social media, how to do a creative project with your community, mental health tips, and the vulnerability of seeing the beauty in the world instead of always focusing on the negative and how to stay in that beautiful vulnerability. Okay, now here she is, Lucia Nell. Lucia. I am so excited to be here with you on Unleash Your Inner Creative. You have such an incredible story to tell. And thank you for being on the show.
- Speaker #0
Thank you, Lauren. It's so exciting to be here. I'm super pumped to have a convo with you.
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Me too. And, you know, I believe creativity is really connected to the inner child. And so I'm so curious about young Lucia. Like, did you have a love for... people from a young age? When did this passion for showing the goodness in humanity get lit up in your heart?
- Speaker #0
Okay, I'm obsessed with that question. I'm like, I want to, I want to ask that question to like every friend in my life and every person I come in contact with. First of all, I'm a Pisces. And so that's just like, I feel like I should just get that out of the way now.
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Thank you. We love a fish here. We're, we're fish friends.
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We're water people. Yeah,
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I'm a Cancer Rising. And then I'm Aquarius sun, Sagittarius moon.
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Okay, period. Great.
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What are yours? I need to know your big three too. So we've got Pisces sun.
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Here's the thing about me is I only know two of them. So Pisces sun and Scorpio rising.
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Gorgeous. My dad's a Scorpio rising. I love it.
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I mean, I say that because I think I've always had an inclination towards empathy and an inclination towards being an empathetic human from a young age. I've always liked to just see people for who they are, meet them where they're at. I've always been somewhat of a floater socially. And I think as a kid, I was a little self-conscious of that being like, why can't I just fit into one box? Like, why can't I use one word to describe who I am or what group I'm with? You know, why do I have so many different kinds of friends? And now as an adult, I see that not only an asset, but an endearing quality of like, because you can shapeshift. you know, and lots of different people identify with the way you communicate and lead your life. And it's actually a really beautiful thing. I think I've always been able to connect to a lot of different types of people since I was a kid. And that sort of like forged a path, so to speak, to be able to relate to lots of different people and hear and be interested in hearing about people who might be different than me because I find value and interest in it.
- Speaker #1
That is so beautiful. I love it. And I think there's a lot of people listening who feel like that. Actually, I remember my dad when I was little sent me this article about floaters, like it's an actual term, because I felt like I was the same way in high school and middle school. And he like said that they have a lot of success long term because of exactly what you're pointing out. But there's some people listening who are floaters like us. but still feel like they haven't found their place? Like, how do you find peace in being this type of human?
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A lot of it depends on my mental health, actually. If I'm feeling sort of like down about myself and down about the world, the floater piece comes out as an insecurity. You know, it's sort of like a negative view of like, why don't I fit in anywhere? And on the flip side, when I feel really confident and stable, I'm like, this rocks. I can hang out with my... friends who do this thing I can hang out you know my best friend from college I'm a dancer and my best friend from college is like this all-star lacrosse player totally different worlds and I used to sit with the lacrosse team in college for meals sometimes it's like the weird freaky little dancer friend who would just like tack on because I was like this is cool I like these people and they're different than me and who cares and then I would go back to my dance world and vice versa so I think there's like something to be said about finding you a comfort in it, a pride in it of just like being who you are. But again, I still struggle with it sometimes. Like I'll be in therapy and talking about like, it's really confusing for me from an identity standpoint. Like how can I be one, one way at work, like super professional, super ambitious moving forward. And then another way with, you know, people, I just want to like chill around and be kind of an idiot around it. Like how are those things happening at the same time? And I think the answer. is that we're just like complex individuals and that's okay. Like it's okay to be someone different or, you know, a version of yourself that's different with your parents than it is with your colleagues than it is with someone you see at pickleball or whatever it is. Just sort of giving yourself permission. It's hard, but it's empowering when you can find a way to do that.
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It's true. It's like, it's not like you're shape-shifting. It's like, to your point, you're an empathetic person who when you're around certain personalities, you're like, Oh, You pick up on the energy and then embody that energy. It's something interesting because I know you interview people too. Like a lot of times I'll think like, oh my God, I just had a terrible interview. I did such a bad job. And then I realized I was actually picking up on the energy of the person I was interviewing. Because when I listened to it in post, it was a good interview. I'm like, oh, they were just feeling really nervous. And I was feeling nervous because they were feeling nervous. So it's an interesting thing. Yeah. But like self-acceptance and like knowing that being multi-passionate and multi-hyphenate is a gift, not a curse. Remembering that, trying to remember that is good. One thing that I love that you do that really shows who you are is in your bio, you have that you're a dancer and a choreographer. And I love that for so many reasons because first of all, it's true. But second of all, I feel like a lot of people, to your point, get into some sort of, even in the best corporate environment, a corporate environment, and feel like they have to just like detach a piece of who they are and leave it at the door. Talk about... how dance lives in your life and why having it at the forefront of your identity is important to you.
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So I started dancing when I was eight years old. I took ballet classes as I think a lot of a lot of kids do. But there's something that just worked for me about it. I love the performance aspect. I was kind of a ham as a kid. Definitely still am, which I can reveal to you later, which will come out. It definitely will come out later. But there's something in like embodying movement too that has nothing to do with like... what's coming out of your mouth. Communicating through movement and communicating through your body, I think is really powerful. I've used dance as a tool, mental health tool to self-regulate. So it's something that's like completely outside of work that taps into who I am as a person and actually who I was as a kid and carrying that forward. Without the title, without the company, without the, you know, interviewing the celebrities, it's like this is a constant for me. And my hope is that it'll be a constant throughout my life. regardless of again where I'm working social status etc what I figured out again as a mental health tool is I go to this class every Sunday with this amazing contemporary teacher named Melissa Shady and it's become this routine for me that has become so important for self-regulation yes because of the exercise and the music and the celebration and it's then the sweat and it's so fun but also because I know every single week regardless of how the week went there's something that's going to bring me back to who I am and bring me back to a place of finding the joy for me, nothing to do with anyone else. And so like identifying the thing that brings you joy or me joy in this case, and then creating like, I don't want to say practice, but just like putting it in a routine kind of often like weekly has been really helpful as like a resource to tap into that's again, completely outside of like the nine to five.
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I love that so much, Lucia. Like the thing that I've been working on for the past two years has been trying to take my worth out of my achievements. How do you balance being an ambitious person and being a highly accomplished person with remembering that who you are is the best thing about you?
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It's really hard. It's super hard. And in fact, in the story that I wrote for the book, as I'm sure you saw, I, you know, experienced mental health episodes throughout my life. And two of the biggest depressive episodes I've experienced were a direct result from burnout, direct result from... achieving, achieving, achieving, pushing, pushing, pushing, hitting numbers, hitting numbers, because I knew I was good at it. And so there's something that's rough around this duality of you can be good at something, but also recognize that it's not good for you. I want to write that on a t-shirt. Yeah. I don't know. Our society, especially American culture, is so obsessed with productivity and capitalism just reinforces that live to work sort of mindset, not work. to live. And it sets up like the wrong expectations. It sets up the wrong standards for how we're meant to be successful. To me, successful is like, yes, being ambitious at work, et cetera, et cetera, but also finding a sense of calm and value in a way that has nothing to do with your job. Yeah. And it's just so hard.
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I've been thinking a lot about the whole like saying work life balance. I'm like.
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Me too. Really? I think about that all the time. I'm like, that is so messed up. Like, who came up with that?
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Is not work part of life? Like, you don't say, you know, relationship life balance or joy life balance or like, it's odd. And it's odd that we've all just been like, oh, yeah, that's a normal thing to talk about.
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Totally. It's just become like colloquial at this point. And like there are studies about it and books about it. But yeah, it's like stepping back and asking that question. A, who came up with that? It's like bizarre. And B, like recognizing that it's reinforcing the wrong idea of like work and life. You know, how is that like a parody? It's like it's to your point. Work is just like one aspect of life. Very odd.
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Totally. But your work is also just like something that really brings in the beauty of life. Like I have to tell you, this book destroyed me. I had to take breaks because I was crying so hard because it was so beautiful, really. And so for those that may not know if they've been living under a rock, can you just first describe what Upworthy is and what you do there?
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Upworthy is a media company dedicated to sharing the best of humanity with the world. And so we've sort of staked out our ground mostly on social media. and have become a hub for things that remind you of what makes us all human. So regardless of where you stand politically, culturally, socioeconomically, you know, where you're from, etc. If you have a beating heart, most of the things on this page you can relate to. I'm really proud of that because the content we put out there is around just like human experience, human values. So it's like we all want the same things at the end of the day. We want... safety, security, roof over our head, family, community, you know, love and human relationships, etc. And we've created this community and comment section specifically that is really rooted in like joy and respect and celebration and empathy. And it's just like unheard of on the internet. You don't see that on the internet for the most part, 99% of the time.
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Not at all. And I'm just so curious because I know one of your specialties is figuring out how to build community and how to like scale online. How on earth have you done that with goodness? Because I get frustrated as a creator because I feel like because I'm not out there saying like controversial or hateful things, a lot of times I get buried and I'm like, I want to do something good. How can I make people care? But you've done it. So. Can you share a little bit about that?
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For sure. I mean, honestly, I think it's because there's a need for it. It's like a hole and there's been a demand for it, which is to your point, Lauren, like the stuff that travels on social media or historically has traveled on social media is based in like. fear-baiting headlines rage-baiting headlines some talking head like yelling about one thing or another and people are just tired it's like we live on our phones which I also have another opinion about that I'll share it's not like whether you're on you have your phone or not it's like how often you're looking at the phone basically we have these like tiny computers in our pockets all the time like our lifestyle in the past 20 years has completely transformed there's just this inundation of information every microsecond millisecond and we're not meant to consume that much information at one time you know think about like even 10 years ago or 15 years ago it's like people would get the newspaper every morning read the newspaper and then like recycle it and then go about their day and now it's just like we have crazy like freaky newspapers in our brains nonsense of like every single second of every day you're talking about the newspaper and recycling it just sounded so peaceful To be fair, it's like it's given you an opportunity to be present. You're holding something. It's why we made a book, which I'll talk about. But it's like you're physically holding something. It's tactile. Another one of my catchphrases is you can't touch the internet.
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Oh, my gosh. Do you want to hear something I just said? I was sitting next to my boyfriend and go, isn't it weird that everything in here is fake? He goes, I never thought of that.
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No, like it's literally just like a portal that you can't touch. You can't smell it. And like we literally. are obsessed you know absorbed in it it's just like how the world works now there's so much information 99 of it makes you feel pretty horrible and defeated you know upworthy's been around since 2012 we started with like the facebook boom and became fast company called us the fastest growing media company of all time no big deal because we cracked the code for facebook of like when that was sort of like the you know facebook was king and queen. And our articles at that time were just, again, spreading information and news that, A, you weren't seeing in traditional media. It was about things that were like lovely and good happening in the world that the news wasn't showing, but also not shying away from issues. It was showing like we were showing really real issues, but also including information about having a solutions-oriented lens on real scary issues. And so you're leaving people with a sense of hope. versus a sense of like, cool, then what's the point of getting out of bed? And so that's sort of the first iteration of our company. And then when Instagram started to get more popular, we said, okay, let's build this out there. And it just grew. We haven't paid for one follower, spent any money on building our followers. And then the last piece of this is we saw a gigantic spike in followers during COVID because that's when people needed it most in a time of... uncertainty in a time of fear and Upworthy sort of became a home for not only are there, you know, good things happening in the world that you're not seeing, but also let's talk about it. Let's create community here. And people started interacting in the comments. I would be, you know, asking questions to the audience and responding, like, what are some kind ways you can show up for your neighbors right now? Or what are you seeing in your communities? And people would submit things being like, every day I've been like going to a senior's home and delivering them food or whatever it is. And It just highlights that like the goodness still goes on even when you don't see it, even in the scary moments. It's always there.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. I was curious, as you mentioned COVID, because that was a time when so many people were going through so many things, but it sounds like you were busier than ever during that time. Yeah.
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Big time.
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And how was that? Because I'm sure it was beautiful because you were part of something so important, but also it was really easy to just work around the clock.
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during that time period if you did have a job if you were lucky enough to how did you get through that and yeah I'm just curious to hear a little bit of your experience yeah that was a very hard moment for the team for sure because running a social media page is like kind of it's not for the faint of heart it is a hard job Talk about being on all the time. Talk about like, you know, it's your job to be on your phone all the time. It's your job to be providing like content and solace for millions of people. Well, I realize, you know, I'm like at home with my cat being like, so how am I doing? You know, like what's I forgot like what's going on. It was really hard for sure. Totally very, very hard. Hard to set boundaries when you're. homebound and your job is like on your phone. It's like if I wanted to wake up at 2am every night and post something or chat with someone across the world via the page, I could. And so running a social media page requires so many boundaries that now I'm, I've gotten really good at and it's saved me for sure.
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For someone who's listening right now who has very poor boundaries with their phone and with socials, do you have any tips on how they can start to, first of all, like recognize it and second of all, start to set them, set the boundaries?
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Yeah, so I can share some that work for me. That's a great point. Recognizing, I think the first thing is just like doing an audit, so to speak. I'm like, how much time am I spending on here and why? And not like using one of those apps to be like, oh, your Instagram's locked or like you've been on here for three hours today and then like you feel ashamed or something. It has to come from you, much like any like habit changing effort. So for me, I noticed that I, you know, in bed, I would wake up and look at Instagram before I got out of bed. And I was just used to it. Like 730 in the morning and the first thing before you like experience any part of your day is looking at social media. And as soon as you open social media. Suddenly, your brain and your perspective is subject to whatever you're seeing, whether it's like a video that makes you mad, whether it's a cute thing, whether it's a picture of someone that makes you feel insecure. Like you have no control over it. And that's before you start your day. So I realized that that was happening. And so now I have a rule with myself where I won't open social media until I've done my entire morning routine. I'll get out of bed, make my bed, feed my cat. Go, you know, wash my face, drink my coffee, do my thing. And then if I want to, I'll look at social media. Sometimes I'm like, do I even want to? And then I'll say no. So even asking the question to yourself, it's like we all like my thumb is always going to Instagram. We all feel it. It's so freaky and bizarre. And being able to like just take a mindful beat and say like, do I even want to open Instagram right now? And usually I'm like, not really. It'll probably make me feel like not great. in this moment. I just don't need it right now. And so I'll like make a different choice. That's morning. And then evening, I become like a total old lady. And I love going to bed at 9pm. It's like kind of become my new obsession, or getting in bed rather at 9pm. And I really try not to look at my phone in bed. I try to read.
- Speaker #1
Wow.
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I know. Isn't that kind of crazy?
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That is revolutionary. No, but the getting in bed thing, that is a hack. Just getting into bed will help you sleep more and better. That's something I've started saying, like, we need to just not lay on the couch at night. Let's just go to bed and lay in the bed. And then you sleep. You just sleep.
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Your body. It's like training your body to just start to wind down. Yeah. You know, and like signaling to your body. It's like not this like blunt difference between like watching TV and then immediately crashing. It's like giving your body and your mind time to ease into it. And if you get in bed early enough. I'm advocating for an early bed.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, no, no. Get into bed.
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I mean, most often I don't fall asleep until 10, but that's still early for adults usually. But then that entire experience has been colored by reading a book and getting organically tired and feeling excited that you're about to get a lot of sleep. It's possible.
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Yeah. And it kind of even feels special because I like to dim the lights. I'm like, oh, it's so nice in here. It's so cozy. I'm not on your level with the book thing. I should try that.
- Speaker #0
Let me tell you something. You know, we go in and out with books, although for a long time I like didn't read books for a while. You know, there's no shame. I was just like busy. It's all the things. It's like that goes converse to what we're talking about with phones. It's like easier instant gratification with phones. But with books, well, first of all, I have to plug.
- Speaker #1
Here's my book. Oh, my gosh. I didn't even realize I match it.
- Speaker #0
Oh, wait. Stunning. Oh my god, you're wearing Upworthy Sunrise, as we say. That's our color.
- Speaker #1
Oh my gosh, beautiful.
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Sunrise. Yeah, so with a book, again, there's something about like having something you can hold. Books smell amazing. And the, it's just like a more sensory experience. And it's personal.
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Yes.
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It's just, this is a one-to-one, much like dance for me. It's like, this is a one-to-one. It's not, you're not participating in a conversation replying to like, someone's story or a group chat or whatever it is it's like having carving out like tiny moments that are just personal and don't have to do with like other people or other things in the world I think is really important well and speaking of your book in particular
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I want to get into how you wrote it and how it came to be and what it is but I just have to highly recommend for anyone considering it it's a great book to have a physical copy of because you Reading a couple stories a day is like kind of like that could be part of your morning routine. Honestly, it's just to be like, OK, I know I'm going to go out into the world. Maybe some things will be challenging. But here's my little jolt to remember that humanity is generally good.
- Speaker #0
Totally. Yeah, absolutely. And we've been getting some early reviews, which has been so exciting, being like, oh, my God, this is impacting real people. But they said similar things, which is like, you know, I've been reading like three stories in the morning or something. And it's just such a good way to help set my mindset for how my day can go. You know, like what possibilities are out there versus like going into the world with a sense of feeling defeated. One woman said this should be a daily devotional, which I was like, wow, that's the biggest compliment.
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I would agree with that. So tell my sweet little listeners, how did you and your co-writer, Gabe, right? How did you two conceive of putting this collection together? Yeah, just tell me how it came to be and what it is for people who don't know.
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Yeah, totally. So Gabe is my bestie at work and we've collaborated on all sorts of things. He and I would ask. questions to our audience. We would pose these questions over the years to our audience. For example, what's the kindest thing a stranger ever did for you? We'd post that on Upworthy. And every time we did it, we would get thousands of responses. Everyone has a story and then people would get inspired by other stories and share theirs. This reminds me of someone that I knew, X, Y, Z. And then we were like, wow, there's eagerness from the audience to share these stories of goodness. and participate in this sort of movement, as it were, to show the good and shine a light on the good. And so we started asking more questions with a sense of intention and see, you know, see how many beautiful responses we could get. So over the course of a year, we posted questions like, who's that teacher who changed your life? Or what's a little thing someone did that had a huge impact on you? Tell us about a time someone lifted you up when you were at your lowest. And so Gabe and I would rifle through these comments and they were just so gorgeous, but they were like a few sentences, you know? And so many of them, we wanted to know more about these stories and understand. And so we plucked out a handful of comments. It ended up being now 101 stories in this book, reaching out to members of our audience saying, hey, can we learn more about these stories? Because what I forgot to mention is Gabe and I would take screenshots of comments and text them to each other and be like. this should be a book. Like, this is like, these are crazy, like so profound, so beautiful, you know, and you can see on social media, it's like, if a comment is popular, it gets like a thousand likes or something. So it was like the nature of the comment section also helped buoy the ones that were like, super profound. And so we said, okay, then why don't we make a book? So, so we went through the process of, you know, putting a book. Pitched together, we ended up getting an agent, a publisher. It's being published with National Geographic, which is so cool. Dream come true. Like, so amazing to work with the team there. And then we worked with a handful of amazing writers to build out these comments and then interview the folks who left the comments and build them out into short stories.
- Speaker #1
Okay. That makes sense. Because, like, how are all of your commenters the most prolific,
- Speaker #0
beautiful,
- Speaker #1
poetic writers? I mean. That makes more sense. This is like, how are these all also in the same world? Like they all have distinct voices, but it's somehow in the same tone.
- Speaker #0
It's like a through line. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
It was so beautiful though. So what was it like having this sort of crowdsourcing approach to creativity?
- Speaker #0
It's so encouraging that these stories exist and we were just able to act as sort of like, again, a spoke or a hub to have them gravitate towards one thing. Like we were able to unlock. and give folks permission, so to speak, to share them. And so what's so cool about it is knowing that, like, every human being on the planet has a story like this. You know, has a story like whether it's a stranger, a teacher, you know, a friend, a neighbor. Everyone has a story like this. And so being able to activate that sort of, like, energy and activate that sort of, those memories, encourages others like yourself. to sort of absorb those stories, absorb the lessons from the stories and the feelings, and then hopefully carry them out into your day and carry them out into the world to maybe be that for someone else or be eyes wide open for a way you can help a stranger. By helping a stranger, for example, it doesn't need to be like a big thing. It can be holding the door open. You know, it can be picking up something someone dropped. It can be letting someone cut in front of you when you're driving your car. I love that stuff. I'm just like such a geek about it. It took a human one second to be like, that's an easy way to be courteous or an easy way to be nice to someone. And it's really ingrained in us. We don't even realize it.
- Speaker #1
It's true. I also was thinking about as I was reading this and literally, I'm not kidding you, I was. like sobbing. I had to take sob breaks so I could just like wipe my face off.
- Speaker #0
We love a sob break.
- Speaker #1
We love a sob break. They happen very often around here. I was like, oh, I think part of why people gravitate to the negativity, I mean, there's a million reasons, but part of it is it's actually quite vulnerable to believe that people are good and to open up your heart in this way where it can affect you like this. Like to go out into the world. And first of all, to like try to be that goodness and then to receive it is very vulnerable. And I just wondered if you had any thoughts on that, because it's actually a lot less vulnerable to go out there and be like, people suck. Everyone sucks. The world is terrible. But to open up your chest and open up to the possibility of people are actually overall really beautiful.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
That's vulnerable.
- Speaker #0
You know, being able to give people the benefit of the doubt. and just say like we're all doing our best and deep down we all again going back to the uproar the ethos it's like we all kind of want the same things i think cultural conditioning especially in our in this country actually has led us to feeling more closed off and more private and it depends on like what city you're in i think i think some cities and states are more open than others but yeah there's certainly this inclination towards an assumption that people are mean or bad or not generous or giving and so you're not sort of in that mindset as a result I think part of the fear of being open is being scared to be viewed as Pollyanna about the worlds and looking at the world through rose-colored glasses you know you could point to a million things being like how can you say people are good when x is happening or how can you say people are decent when y is happening you But I think what people need to understand is there's complexities. There's nuance to the human experience. It's not just black or white, good or bad. And if you're thinking in that way and you're making these like broad generalizations that people aren't good, then that's how you're going to see the world. It totally colors your perception of the world.
- Speaker #1
A hundred percent.
- Speaker #0
If that's all you're seeing, then it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. That's what you're going to see.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Flip side, if you're saying like people are generally... doing their best to be benevolent and friendly, you'll start to like notice more of that around you too. Again, even in the micro moments rather.
- Speaker #1
I love so much of what you just said. I mean, I was going to ask you how much of this seeing the good is literally just perspective. Like if you believe you're going to see more good, you will see more good. If you're looking, I one time heard a spiritual teacher say, if you're looking for a monster, you'll find one around every corner.
- Speaker #0
Totally.
- Speaker #1
I think the same is true if you're looking for a good person. And I don't think you should be Pollyanna. I was like that when I was younger because I was and I hadn't experienced as much of life. Now that I've been through life, I call myself an angsty optimist. I believe the best possible thing is always possible, but I like to acknowledge the pain along the way because that is also real. And I don't think you have to choose one or the other. You can believe in the goodness of humanity while seeing some of the treachery and say, this is what we could be and this is what we're fighting for.
- Speaker #0
It's about being solutions oriented. So it's not about sticking your head in the sand. Like the last thing we'd want to do is to just keep pushing, you know, or push at all, just like puppies and rainbows, puppies and rainbows, when we know that that's not what we do. But you know what I mean? It's like when something really tragic happens, that makes us look Pollyanna. And that's not the kind of value we want to project on people, put your head in the sand. It's about creating a counter narrative and a counter balance. To all the stuff you're seeing that feels really awful.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
And to your point around, I love that you say anxious optimist. Is that what you said?
- Speaker #1
Anxiety optimist.
- Speaker #0
I use a term I like to describe our community as realist optimists. So I love that you said that, which is, again, acknowledging that there are super real issues in the world, but trying to approach them through a sense of we can fix them versus we're doomed.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Because otherwise, what's the point?
- Speaker #0
Literally. I also was going to mention there's this term called mean world syndrome. Yes. That we talk about a lot.
- Speaker #1
Tell me more because I had that written down in my questions too.
- Speaker #0
So it's, I mean, it's exactly what we're talking about. It was a term coined by a professor at Temple University called George Gerbner in the 70s. And basically he came out with this paper that said, if all you're being exposed to is negative headlines and fear-baiting media, you're more likely to see the world in that way. You're more likely to see people as scary, and you're more likely to operate from a place of fear and defensiveness. And so we're sort of pushing the narrative forward of... what it looks like on the flip side of that. You know, if that's been proven to be true, can the other side of it be true too?
- Speaker #1
I was reading a deck that your rep sent over and she was saying some of like the real life benefits of taking in your content. Do you happen to know any of those stats?
- Speaker #0
I do. So we ran a poll with our audience and asking them if they felt better after being exposed to our content, 98% of them said yes. So nearly 100% of people in our audience on Instagram, it's 5 million people said, yes, I feel much better after seeing content that's rooted in goodness and human decency. Of those people, we said, does our content make you feel more optimistic about the world? 90% of those people said yes, which is crazy. I mean, it just shows that, you know, to the point about Mean World Syndrome, it's like we're a media outlet. And so an independent media outlet. But by exposing people to content that, again, makes them feel more hopeful about the world, it changes the way they feel about the future. Like 90% of people were more optimistic about the world. And so there's just a lot of power in it. And I'm very proud of how we wield that power responsibly. The last piece is 95% of people felt motivated to engage with people in a kinder and more understanding way after seeing Upworthy content. You know, it's the theoretical, but it's also the tactical. And that's the part that's just like so cool.
- Speaker #1
So cool. Hey, creative, if you love the show and it is meant a lot to you, could you do me a favor? Rate and review on Apple. Give it a review on Spotify. Share it with a friend. These things all make a major difference in a podcaster's life and in growing their show. And I really want to build up this community of. creatives who love, trust, and know themselves and love, trust, and deeply know others. So if you could do that and share the show with someone you care about, that would mean so much. All right. I love you. For anyone listening who wants to start, if they haven't already started, shifting their creative work toward the type of ethos that Upworthy has of proving that people are generally good. The world is, there's a lot of beauty here. What's your advice to them on how to make an impact in a climate that mostly still values divisiveness?
- Speaker #0
Depends on what kind of impact.
- Speaker #1
Like how could they grow their work or grow their page while in 2024 in the climate we're in?
- Speaker #0
The less corporate, the better. I think the reason people love Upworthy is because we feel like a friend and not like an influencer or not like a brand. And that's what's driven us in the right direction in a huge way is like being able to develop trust with the audience. And so for me, you know, you look at some of the biggest companies that have amazingly successful Instagram accounts. Duolingo. I don't know if you guys follow these accounts, but they're iconic. So whoever's running the Duolingo Instagram, props to you. The TSA, literally the TSA Instagram. Have you seen it?
- Speaker #1
I don't follow the Instagram. I follow the threads and it's hilarious.
- Speaker #0
It's just like so funny. I'm like, what 22 year old is running this account and can I hire you? Whoever owns the page for the state of New Jersey is iconic. So many pizza references and hoagies and all that. The point is, I think the reason they're so successful and the reason Upworthy is so successful is because we just speak to the audience like people. You know, we're just speaking to the audience like you would send a meme to a friend where it's like capitalized LOL, something like that. I mean, I just sounded so old saying that. But like just thinking about it as treating your audience like you would treat a friend. Obviously, it depends on the organization and like the kind of work you're doing. But I think there are ways to inject light and humor and joy into the stuff you're putting out that becomes more. of a hook and just more interesting than something that feels really stale. I know that that's not like totally applicable. Obviously some in the impact space there's some issues where it's not appropriate to use humor, you know, but I do think having that sense of like just being a person, being vulnerable, trying to be human, you know, like your page is wonderful. It's like just having vulnerable, relatable copy or conversation or video is how we grew, honestly.
- Speaker #1
It's beautiful. And speaking of sharing human stories, you shared your story. It was so wonderful. Would you mind sharing a little bit about and share as much of the story as you want to and then like how you got to the place where you decided you wanted to share that story and like spotlight what you did?
- Speaker #0
Totally. So I wrote a story called Sign Wave and it is in a chapter, chapter five called When I Needed It Most. It is a story about my brother coming to live with me when I had a mental health breakdown. and had to leave work to go to a treatment center for four months. It was a horrible time in my life. It was kind of a nightmare with meds and side effects and running through doctors and et cetera, et cetera. It was definitely the lowest point in my life. And my brother flew from New York to L.A. the same day that I called him. He got on a plane that day. He had experienced mental health. I know.
- Speaker #1
I love when you said in the story, he goes, I'll be there in eight hours.
- Speaker #0
No, he's like the greatest sibling I could ask for. Besides my other two sisters. Shout out.
- Speaker #1
Shout out.
- Speaker #0
You know, he moved in and he held me through this time. That was like a really horrible, difficult time. You know, it's tied into what we're talking about of like having to leave my job. That was a whole other mental, mental loops to go through of like, who am I without my job? You know, there's all sorts of mental health stuff related to that.
- Speaker #1
What were you doing at that time?
- Speaker #0
I was at Upworthy. I should have mentioned that. I've been at Upworthy for 10 years. I've been here for a decade.
- Speaker #1
Since you were a youth. You still are a youth, but like a fetus.
- Speaker #0
I was literally a fetus. Yeah, I was like in utero.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
But actually, what's even cooler is it happened while we were making this book. Wow. It was like pretty recent in the grand scheme of things. So the book we've been working on for three years, and about eight months into it, I had to take a pause. And that was devastating for me because I didn't know how long I was going to be out. I just didn't know how long it was going to take for me to heal. You know, there's no timeline. It's so different for everyone. And what was amazing is my co-author, Gabe, you know, I kind of came to him sheepishly being like, I'm so sorry, but I have to leave. Like, I have to go on leave for a bit. And without blinking an eye, he was like, go take all the time you need. Like, such an empathetic. caring friend he's a friend in that moment versus a colleague and then when I started to feel better at the same time Gabe called me and he was like you know if and when you're feeling up for it I would love for you to come back on and so it was sort of this bookend moment of me and you know spiraling in the depths of despair in this depressive episode and being caught on both ends through Gabe through my brother through my family through my friends like it was just such An amazing example of the best of humanity, of what people will do to make sure you feel okay. And I'm lucky, you know, I'm lucky I have those resources. I'm lucky I have family that's able to show up for me. But I felt like it warranted a story in this book.
- Speaker #1
It definitely did. It's so beautiful. You know, if there's anyone listening right now who's in the midst of something like that or coming out of it, do you have any words of wisdom for them on how they can
- Speaker #0
cultivate self-compassion because I feel like that's one of the hardest things when you're in the throes of a mental health anything my biggest piece would be day by day like I think when I was in it you know I would break down all the time because I thought it was never gonna end and I was like this is my life it's sort of like a I'm sentenced to this as a reality and my family and friends would say like in a gentle way like it's not forever enough you But I believe that because when you're dealing with mental health stuff, your brain chemistry alters the way you think and the way you see things and the way you envision the future. And so the only thing I could do was day by day, just day by day. And today it feels bad. Tomorrow it might feel a tiny bit better. The next day might feel way worse. The next day it might feel neutral. It's just like tiny little building blocks of giving yourself the space. and compassion to feel how you feel that day and know that it's not going to take like a magic wand or a magic bullet it's just going to be moment by moment day by day and getting all the support you can get and taking it It's so hard, though. For anyone listening, it's like I honestly encourage people to reach out to me. Like, I love talking about this stuff with anyone. I like being the person that I wish I had. So definitely feel free to contact me.
- Speaker #1
That is so beautiful and generous. One of the other things we talk about on the show is self-love, self-trust and self-knowledge. You've probably heard me say it if you listen to an episode, but I really believe. and approaching creativity from a holistic perspective. And so I'm curious, how do you work on those things on a daily basis?
- Speaker #0
I mean, I think it's a combo of kind of everything we've talked about. I think for me, especially through the lens of mental health, routine is massive. Just like again, that morning routine, that evening routine structure is massive. Honestly, boundaries with social media, it's like... I kind of love that I work in social media and I work for the internet and I'm the biggest advocate of boundaries. And then I think getting to know yourself, like giving yourself a chance to understand what works for you, like socially, job wise, etc. But for me, for example, it's like when I lived in New York, when I was in my 20s, I was booking every single night with plans. Every single night I had plans, sometimes double plans. And looking back, I'm like, no wonder I would crash all the time because you didn't give yourself time to rest. I've become a huge advocate for rest now. Yeah, my friend Allie made these shirts. I told her I was a rest lobbyist and she made us shirts that said rest lobbyist. It's like so good.
- Speaker #1
I love that. Nothing feels more peaceful than looking at my schedule and seeing nothing.
- Speaker #0
Oh my God. Greatest. Even on weekends.
- Speaker #1
Oh my gosh.
- Speaker #0
especially on weekends yes I have like a lot of plans on Sunday and I'm already feeling anxious yeah like when am I gonna like rest and then Monday's the next day I'm not gonna be okay yeah exactly no it's so real rest is so real and I didn't learn how to do it until I came out of treatment like I think again it's a cultural thing it ties into the job stuff it ties into the productivity stuff it's like carving out a plan with yourself to rest like think of it that way you know which is just like no other people like sometimes I'll be in my house and just be like literally sitting in silence and it's extremely healing yeah because I'm like just calm down for a second and you don't need to be booked all the time you don't need to be around other people all the time again easier said than done depending on your personality mental health stuff etc but I'm an extrovert for the most part and I love staying in on a Friday night now it's like please you can have it all I'm tired you Like, I'm so tired all the time. Yeah. So like, let me recharge and then I'll hang out with friends the next night, you know?
- Speaker #1
Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest things I battle. I'm like, am I still interesting if I do this? Like, you're making plans based on whether or not other people will think you're interesting. Like, do you think you're interesting? Because if you do, you'll be just as interesting sitting home as you will be out at a party.
- Speaker #0
You're the same person.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Also, like, if you're going to a party for the wrong reasons. Or for the reasons of like people pleasing stuff that's going to make you feel way more depleted eventually than like listening to your body and being like, I think I need to sleep.
- Speaker #1
Yep. So important. I could ask you a million more questions and just talk about life with you. But I feel like I want to know outside of yours and Gabe's story, what in the book was one of your favorite stories or like a couple of your favorite stories that just like gripped you and why?
- Speaker #0
Yes, there is a story. called Sky's the Limit, and I'm obsessed with it. It's basically about this girl who worked at the Cheesecake Factory. Do you remember this one?
- Speaker #1
Yeah, wait, and then she became a lawyer?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, so she worked at the Cheesecake Factory after high school and dreamt of becoming a lawyer, but she couldn't afford her LSAT test prep and the LSAT exam, etc. She had a pretty bleak vision of her future. She was taking care of her... younger siblings her parents were sort of like in and out and it was sort of a dire situation while she was working she had this regular customer that she would always interact with this older woman and it was sort of this nice you know she's a total stranger but it was a nice dynamic and they would banter about like many things in life etc and I guess at some point this girl named Skye revealed to this woman that she about her dreams of becoming a lawyer Eventually, this woman comes back to the Cheesecake Factory. Also, shout out to going to the Cheesecake Factory this often.
- Speaker #1
I know. I was thinking that when I was reading it, too. I was like, wow. I actually didn't know you were allowed to go that much.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. It sounds illegal. Yeah. Speaking of law. And this woman, long story short, ends up. offering to pay for the waitress's LSAT prep courses and exam. And out of the kindness of her heart and just seeing how much it meant to her. And the girl ended up going on to become a public defender, like a civil rights lawyer. So that's sort of her way of paying it forward. And so it's just stuff like that, where it's like, total stranger. You know, it's like, that's like, there's no family there. There's no like friend situation, just like an acquaintance that you happen, you know, she's her waitress and you happen to have sort of like a top line relationship with. It's beautiful. I love that story.
- Speaker #1
It really is. And then I just have to say one other thing before we wrap. I was looking at Upworthy today and there was a section about like all these people who started taking music classes.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
And it just struck me and I'm so curious. Because they were taking them like later in life, which is not easy. Like to start a piano class when you're in your 60s is very difficult.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
Do you have any favorite Unleash Your Inner Creative stories that you've seen either through the book or on the page that you might remember and want to share?
- Speaker #0
Yes. Well, first of all, I love that. Some of our most popular posts are about starting something later in life. So it's like someone who. you know, got their law degree at 50 or something. It was like a dream of theirs or someone who's learning to paint and showed their painting when they're like 45 or something. People love that for all the reasons you just said. It's like it's we have this bizarre concept that like once you pass a certain window, it's too late to start something. And it's like, really? Because like, it's just life and you can try it whenever you want. The example that I love, and maybe this isn't as, you know, this is more high level, but taps into people's sense of you know joy and playfulness is we have this post that i'll send you that features a gas station that put a sign on their window that says you can only enter if you do a silly dance i love that a gas station and so then you see all the camera footage of people walking in like truckers and like old men and all these things that are coming in they're just like like they're doing all these like absurd moves and like cracking up and everyone around them is cracking up and it's just like totally again random location middle of nowhere like folks of all walks of life coming in and genuinely enjoying it because it gives people permission to tap into the playfulness and the joy that we all have has all have as kids that we end up sort of like losing over the years and again going back to like you know similar to why people share on upworthy there's an inner eagerness And there's an inner desire to let that part out. But you just you need permission for some reason. I think it's like a human psychology something. So scientific. But it's like.
- Speaker #1
Put that on your shirt.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, literally. I'm like, you can. Yeah, TM, you can quote me on that study I just did. Human psychology, whatever. And Upworthy's become like we basically created a platform and then everything comes. It's so cool.
- Speaker #1
It is so cool.
- Speaker #0
Again, I'll send you the link to that video because it's unbelievable. And that is the best of humanity. We all have that in us.
- Speaker #1
We do.
- Speaker #0
Can dance. Everyone can sing. Everyone, you know, it's like all the things that are enjoyable that have nothing to do with, again, job status, etc.
- Speaker #1
Creativity is your birthright. And so is goodness. So I want to thank you for everything you do as a human, as a creative, to put goodness out into the world. and you're just a really beautiful human being. And thank you for showcasing and spotlighting other beautiful human beings.
- Speaker #0
Thank you so much, Lauren. Likewise, and I can't wait to hang out.
- Speaker #1
Same. It's going to be so fun. Thank you for listening. And thanks to my guest, Lucia Nell. For more info on Lucia, visit her website, lucianell.com and follow Upworthy at Upworthy. You can get her new book, Good People, Stories from the Best of Humanity. wherever good books are sold. Thanks to Rachel Fulton for producing today's episode. Follow her at Rachel M. Fulton. Thanks to Liz Full for the show's theme music. Follow her at Liz Full. And again, thank you. If you like what you heard today, remember to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Share the show with a friend and post about it on social media. Tag me at Lauren LaGrasso and at Unleash Your Inner Creative, and I will repost to share my gratitude. Also tag at Upworthy so they can share as well. My wish for you this week is that you focus on the positive stories around you and share them with others. Small acts of kindness and positivity can make a big difference in how you and those around you experience the world. I hope you also make work from this point of view. Make creativity from the point of view that humans are generally good because I really believe they are and I hope you do too. I love you and I believe in you. Talk with you next week.
