- Speaker #0
What if healing could be a creative process, even in the face of life's toughest challenges? Today's guest found a path to healing that was far outside the norm, one that was deeply creative, radically transformative, and it worked for her. She reimagined justice, not just as a punishment, but as an opportunity for true transformation. Today, she'll share how creativity and authenticity can empower us to heal, reclaim our power, and change the world. Welcome to Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LaGrasso. I'm Lauren LaGrasso. I'm a Webby Award-winning podcast host and producer, singer-songwriter, public speaker, and creative coach. This show sits at the intersection of creativity, mental health, self-development, and spirituality, and it is meant to give you tools to take fear out of the driver's seat and love, trust, and know yourself enough to claim your right to creativity and pursue whatever it is that's on your heart. This is the second episode in my series on using creativity to change the world and why we need creative solutions to our biggest problems and pain. We often think about creativity as something reserved for the arts, but I believe we need to make it the filter for our whole lives. Today's conversation exemplifies that it is so much more. It's about rewriting systems, reclaiming power, and finding new ways forward when none seem to exist. And content warning, Today we have a very powerful conversation and it revolves around healing from sexual assault and restorative justice. So I just want you to know that going into it. But I will say it's incredibly hopeful and extremely empowering. And with that, today's guest is Marlee Liss. She is an award-winning speaker, survivor advocate, somatic educator, author, and founder of Survivors for Justice Reform, which is a global coalition of survivors of sexual violence, domestic violence, human trafficking, and also allies who stand for justice reform. Featured in Forbes, HuffPost, BuzzFeed, and many more, her voice inspires thousands to live unapologetically and take control of their own healing and story. Marley's groundbreaking decision to pursue court-ordered restorative justice was the epitome of using your creativity and heart to heal yourself and change the world. Rather than following the traditional path of seeking justice through a trial and jail for her assailant, She chose a route that focused on healing, accountability, and deep transformation, including a facilitated process where he had to take real responsibility. She became the first person in North America to advocate for and successfully secure a court-ordered restorative justice process, including mandated therapy for her assailant, setting a precedent, and proving a new path for justice was possible. From today's conversation, you'll learn the radical question that changed everything for Marley, and how it can help you reclaim your power, why the justice system often fails survivors, and what a deep healing alternative can look like, how creativity can be used to solve even the world's toughest problems, and the surprising key to true healing, reclaiming joy, pleasure, and personal freedom. All right, let's get into it. Here she is, Marley Liss. I'm so excited to have this conversation. First of all, I'm going to say something I think you understand. This is the perfect conversation for Pluto entering Aquarius.
- Speaker #1
Okay, I know Aquarius, but I'm like, tell me more about Pluto.
- Speaker #0
Well, Aquarius is the humanitarian of the zodiac. And Pluto, I don't know a ton about it, but basically it was in Capricorn for many years, which is basically like capitalism, hard work, results, one foot in front of the other, A plus B equals C. Aquarius is an air sign, much more free flowing. And again, is the humanitarian of the zodiac, is all about community, is all about like making change through community. And reparative justice is such an example of that to me. And something I've been thinking about a lot lately is that creativity isn't just in our work. It's not just in, you know, your day-to-day activities. It's also in how you approach your whole life and the hardest things of life. And I think we need creative solutions to the world's problems. And your story is just such a beautiful and profound example of that. So thank you for being here.
- Speaker #1
Oh, thank you for having me. I love your podcast. And oh, you know what? My word of the year is creative. So we're off to a really good start.
- Speaker #0
Well, honored to help reinforce your word of the year. And I would be honored if you would share your journey and your story and how you came to do what you do today.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, my journey, I suppose, started in. 2016 when I experienced sexual violence from a stranger. So I was studying social work at the time. Like I was already really passionate about like feminism and challenging objectification and whatnot, but I had never heard of restorative justice before. And I had never really. reckoned with the traumas that I'd experienced in the context of rape culture. Like I always minimized things to such a degree, but this rape really sent me like plummeting down into a rabbit hole of so much depression and anxiety and panic attacks and, and really the sense that like love had lost in the world. And I think politically we can all relate to that in certain moments where we're just like, wow, where is the hope? So. I ended up reporting to the police solely because I didn't know that anything else existed. Like after I experienced my rape, I literally in a state of shock Googled, what do you do after you're raped? And it said, you know, first things first, you go to the hospital, you get a rape kit. So I did that, went through the motions of that. And then the nurse basically said, okay, now I can call the police and you can report or you can just go home. And that binary is one of the biggest things I want to challenge because like we know that less than 6% of people report sexual violence. So it's like all of those people then are getting nothing, no support, no justice, no accountability at all. And so not knowing that this existed, I ended up going to the police and entering that process. And I was, I guess, taken seriously. in that realm. I definitely think that like being a white woman, being a cisgender person plays into that too. But I reported and right away it was such a like cold and clinical process. And I later learned that they're actually not allowed to show you too much compassion because that would imply the bias that they believe you.
- Speaker #0
That is so awful.
- Speaker #1
A mandated neutrality while someone's like in crisis, which is just so weird.
- Speaker #0
Yeah,
- Speaker #1
it's weird.
- Speaker #0
I mean, weird is like the most benign way to put it. It's really quite inhumane.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, it is. It is. And I'm going to stay on track here, but I think there's just so many things in the world that ask us to flex our like indifference muscle. And I think we like so deeply need to flex our empathy muscle. And when there's jobs where people are like, you have to be indifferent. It's just like, ew, people are practicing that every day. So I started going through that process and the whole thing was just really surreal. Like I was kept in the dark most of the time. I was basically told like, you're not the victim. You're a witness in a crime that's done to the state. And that's true for all sexual violence cases.
- Speaker #0
Is that why, you know, at least because you're in Canada, but I'm in the United States, our laws are pretty similar.
- Speaker #1
The same thing with that.
- Speaker #0
Is that why in those cases it's always like so-and-so versus the state of California?
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. It's not Marley versus assailant. It's the crown or the state versus the accused. And then the victim is seen as just a witness in a crime that was done to like the government.
- Speaker #0
What story does that tell survivors?
- Speaker #1
Exactly. This is why I think we see people trying to make a lot of tweaks to the systems with without getting creative, like without changing up their foundations, but it doesn't really work because you still have that foundation where from the very start, we're telling survivors, this isn't about you. You're just a witness and us trying to prove that this guy broke a law, basically.
- Speaker #0
Well, that's chilling. So you're going through this process, you report it, you're receiving no empathy or compassion. It's just like everything is very clinical. What's going on with you emotionally while this part of your journey is taking place?
- Speaker #1
That piece of the justice process was drawn out for two years, which is pretty normal. Like I didn't really hear anything for two years. And in that time, I was really just not OK at all. Like I said, like I was really reckoning with the world and I was really reckoning with like. how we've justified treating one another in the world. So it felt like every relationship I had in life was rocked. Like my relationship to my body, my relationship to my sexuality, my relationship to friends and food and to like spirituality, like everything was just really rocked from this. And I think I can say this on your podcast at the same time, it was 2016. So like Trump was elected about two months later and That same summer, we heard his like grab him by the pussy tapes. And it just I remember like I was going through a survivor support group at that time. And when he was elected, we were all just like. I guess we don't matter.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
I think a lot of people can relate to that. Again, I kept going through that process. And honestly, I wasn't really thinking about justice because I was just focused on surviving. Like I really was in that space of questioning. Do I even want to exist in a world where we treat each other like this? And I was grieving like the version of the world I thought I lived in, which I feel like I'm now fighting for.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Because you saw what the most beautiful world could be because you had it internally inside of you and how you approach the world. And I really relate. I heard you on an interview say like you were grappling with like, I thought the world was full of love. And then I'm butchering your quote, but you said something to the effect of like, I thought the world was full of love. I led with love. And this made me wonder is like, is that love even real? Or does that love exist? I so relate as a person who is I think, born pretty optimistic and like very much believing that that people are generally good. Well, tell me what it was like to feel like you lost that and then the process of regaining the belief in what the world could be and what you feel like it is at its core, not under all this conditioning and these false stories, really, that we've been handed.
- Speaker #1
Well, I felt really dumb, to be honest. I felt like a naive, dumb, sheltered girl who... got herself into a situation, which like all of those words I'm saying are, that's the language of self-blame that so many survivors know. And I remember a therapist saying like the trade-off with self-blame is like, it's very painful to blame yourself, but you get to keep a sense of control. Like you get to say like, oh, if I am just less naive, then this won't happen again, which is an illusion, but it can be like a temporary comfort. And so, yeah, I really felt like I had been so naive and I kind of always went through life as this like sparkle loving girl. Like when I was a little three year old or something, I like told my mom that I was in love with the sky and like me and the sky are in love. Like I just had all these like really this kind of like romanticized view of life that I do feel like I've reclaimed. probably with more balance. Cause that's like, we don't want to bypass the shit either. I really held that. And then when I was raped, I felt like, wow, I was wrong. And all of the voices that surrounded me in life, that's kind of said like, come down from your cloud, like floaty girl, like shit's really hard actually. And you need to like, wake up to that. I feel like I was like, oh, I was wrong and they were right. And everything is really hard. And like what I feel now is that it's all coexisting. But I think if we like erase the pleasure and the joy and the magic, we can't continue. We can't connect with like love and hope and like the beauty that is actually here. So it took me a long time. And what I am so grateful for in my like justice journey is that. My experience of justice ended up catalyzing that reclamation, whereas for a lot of people, it continues stripping it away. And they have to do that reclamation work after they're out of the justice process. So it shouldn't be that way that it sets us back.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So tell me the story of how you came to be the first ever to do what you did. Tell me about the conversation you were having with your friend and how you got this idea.
- Speaker #1
I... was going through the punitive process. And when I say punitive, it's like courtrooms, police, all of that stuff for two years. And then I was called to a preliminary trial, which is where they see, is there enough evidence to go to the big trial? And I experienced that. And I just felt like, what are we doing? Because I remember them telling me like, if you refuse to answer a question on the stand, you could be charged as non-cooperative. And what that means is that in this fight where we're supposedly fighting for survivors right to consent we don't have any right to consent we can't say no I'm not comfortable answering that so I felt like every step of the process was recreating like the powerlessness that I felt during trauma. And at the same time, I was like, this isn't gonna stop rape. If the best case scenario is that my assailant gets locked up for like a year, is that gonna stop him from ever being violent? Like I just was really losing faith in that system. And so after the preliminary trial, I again, just focused on my healing because I felt so set back after. the very traumatic trial process. And by the time I was called to the criminal trial, another year went by. So that's three years. And my very first thought when I got called to the trial was I don't want to do this. And in Canada, we do have the option to just kind of walk away from the whole thing. In the States, I don't. I think it's state to state whether that's a choice, which again is just stripping people of. their right to consent. And so, yeah, I was like, I don't want to do this. I'm just going to drop the charges and walk away. And I felt into that for a bit and I just like, couldn't stop bawling. Like I just, I was just like in grief and bawling. And I was like, why did I drag myself through all this? What was the point of all this? And that's kind of when I had that friend step in and say, like, This key question that I think is like the magical question that we need to ask ourselves with anything in life. She just said like, this clearly isn't working for you. What would meaningful justice look like to you? And that was the first time someone had asked me that. And what it allowed me to do is it allowed me to like put aside this predefined box of what society has said justice is. So I could put that aside. And I could actually like turn in words like towards myself and my body and ask myself, what would meaningful justice look like to me? And even that act alone, I think is really radical and really creative. Like we're not given permission to do that. So when I did that, I was very clear. Like I was like, I want to ask him the questions I've had for years. I want to, you know, have him go through some deep. process that leads to him taking accountability and never doing this to anyone again. I'd want him to apologize. I want to voice the impact without censoring myself because in a courtroom, you have to show up a very certain way to be deemed credible. And so I said all this and my friend, just this fiery lady, she just looked at me and she was like, so make it happen.
- Speaker #0
Thank you, friend.
- Speaker #1
I will give folks. like credit to that moment because it was so mind blowing to me because what she did in that moment, like I said, she invited me to turn inward and listen to what I actually needed. She validated that if my response didn't match what society told me I needed, that it was still valid. And then she encouraged me to basically be like, and it's so valid that you should act on it and advocate for it.
- Speaker #0
And that's such a great action plan for anybody who is the loved one of someone going through something, whatever it is. So could you go through those steps again? What she did? She asked you how you were feeling.
- Speaker #1
She asked me what would actually be meaningful to me. Yeah. Like it was kind of like, forget what you've been told would be meaningful to you. Right. So like, forget that. What would actually be meaningful to you? And then listened. Yeah. Validated what I said. and validated it enough to say that deserves to be acted upon or advocated for.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Such a great model to follow for anyone. So you then thought about this and then you started Googling again, right?
- Speaker #1
Yes. Thank you, Google. Yeah. I took to Google. What actually happened is that I messaged a person I had met traveling very briefly, like years earlier. who had vague, she lived in Germany and she had vaguely mentioned, she'd been like, we do the court process differently sometimes here. Like it was really vague. And I messaged her and I was like, remember when you made that comment, like, what did you mean? And she was kind of like, you should look up restorative justice. And I looked it up and I was like, holy shit, this is a thing. It was everything I described. but it had a name and it had a lineage and it had like a clear process. And when I saw that, I felt two things. So like one thing I felt was gratitude because I saw that like, especially indigenous communities, pre-colonial societies have been approaching justice in a non-punitive way like this for like hundreds of years. And it was like, wow, these paths are already paved. And also I'm not the only one. who wants this? Because like I had said before, like I felt kind of stupid and weak and naive for being as compassionate as I was. And so seeing this, I was like, oh, I'm not the only human who feels like this.
- Speaker #0
And I want you to define restorative justice so people understand it. And then obviously we'll talk about your experience of it. But the thing is, it works. And what you talk about so beautifully is like. Everybody is allowed to feel however they feel. There is no rule book for experiencing sexual trauma. It is horrific. And if however you feel and however you want to deal with it and get justice for yourself is okay. And like what's right for you. But the facts are that our current system is a complete failure. Before prepping for this interview, and I even heard you quote this in one of the interviews I watched in preparation for this. Out of a thousand sexual assaults, 975 assailants walk free. So our system just doesn't work. And it's re-traumatizing the victims. And the perpetrators are most often walking free.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, they're either walking free, and this is like a rabbit hole of a comment, or they're being incarcerated for a few years. And when we look at the research on what makes someone more violent, we see that shame, isolation, poverty, and exposure to violence make people more likely to be violent. And those are kind of the ingredients of prison because we also know that even if you're only locked up for a year, you're then going to have less access to employment and housing and a social network for the rest of your life. So we're kind of creating circumstances where... they're more likely to be violent. And then if we turn back to the victim, one of the most common needs that victims report after trauma is, I just don't want them to do this again, which I felt as well. And so it's like those ingredients aren't meeting that need. So the other thing that I felt when I saw that this existed was frustration because I was, I want to say 24 at the time. I had been studying social work for several years. I had been going through the criminal legal system for three years. And I had spoken with lawyers and prosecutors and therapists and rape crisis centers and advocates and all kinds of people. And no one had ever said, hey, there are other options or like, hey, we see how painful this is for you. There are other options.
- Speaker #0
So can you explain to somebody who really has no idea about what restorative justice is? What is it?
- Speaker #1
Yes. So very simply, it prioritizes repair over punishment. So where the punitive system, the courts, look at what law was broken, who broke it, what punishment is warranted, the restorative justice process is going to ask what happened, who was harmed, and what's needed to support the healing. So these are very different. and paradigms that are taking place. And the restorative process, like I said, it's rooted in like indigenous and pre-colonial societies. And when we look at the criminal legal system today, which most of us kind of see or have been taught to see as the norm, like if we turn on Netflix, like that's what we're going to see in true crime. We're not going to see what I did. That version of criminal justice really only came into being about 152 years ago with British colonization. So with the British North America Act, that's when the criminal legal system, as we know it today, became the norm. But before that, every different culture had their own way of approaching justice. And it can be really fun to research. what your own culture and roots were doing prior to that. Because we see these restorative practices done in like African, Indian, Jewish, Mennonite, Celtic communities, Indigenous communities, like so many different communities. And so it is like a reclamation in a sense of justice before colonization.
- Speaker #0
So powerful.
- Speaker #1
It's not another one size fits all. So like in a few moments, I'll, you know, I'll probably be sharing about what this looks like for me, but I want to emphasize that this isn't a new box for survivors to have to shove themselves into. This is something that should be needs-based. So it should be that moment of everyone turning inward or being supported in turning inward. understanding what their needs are. Maybe it's accountability. Maybe it's like reassurance. The person won't do this again. And then having support in accessing a justice process that's really compatible with those needs. So it can look many different ways. It can look like a circle. It can look like therapy. It can look like volunteer work. It can look like arts-based initiatives. Like there's, in terms of creative justice, there's some really cool examples of like how this has looked.
- Speaker #0
That's beautiful. That makes me want to cry. So I would love. to hear then, okay, you find out what restorative justice is. You're like, this is exactly what I'm looking for. What steps do you take next? Because you are the first person who ever did this in North America. And how did you even bring this up when it had no precedent? I mean, the courage. It took, I just want to, I want to know.
- Speaker #1
Well, I want to clarify first that like, I wouldn't say I'm the first that did it because like I said, like people have been doing this outside of the court process for so long, but through the court process. Yes. So yeah, I didn't know what the heck I was doing. And I had just heard this term for the first time. Like now I have all this knowledge around it, but like, that's not where I was at. So again, I resorted to my phone. And I put in my Instagram story, like, does anyone know anything about restorative justice? And that got me connected with like a friend of a friend of a friend who knew a lawyer who was also a very passionate restorative justice advocate. And I reached out to him. His name's Jeff. I actually just had a really lovely coffee with him yesterday.
- Speaker #0
Hey, Jeff.
- Speaker #1
Anytime people are like. I've given up on all men. I'm like, but look at Jeff.
- Speaker #0
Yes. Yes. We love Jeff.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. He agreed to meet up with me and we were like, let's talk about the process that I want. And then let's together meet with the prosecutors that were assigned to my case to ask them for this outcome. So I met with him. He was very lovely and human, like gave me the insights. And then the two of us met with the prosecutors. And so keep in mind at that time, they still were gearing up to do a criminal trial for this case. They knew all they knew was that I didn't really want to do the trial. And I walked in and one of the prosecutors right away was really swinging for the criminal trial. Like this is what she said. She said, Marley, I hear that you don't want to do the trial, but I also hear that you're a really strong girl. do you not think you're a strong girl?
- Speaker #0
Oh yeah.
- Speaker #1
Like the coercion of it all. And I said, no, I do think I'm, I'm strong. And she said, okay, great. So we can do the trial. I was kind of like, I'm very grounded and coherent right now, but at the time I was still like really dealing with trauma responses and freeze and brain fog. And I was kind of like, oh, should I leave? And, um, Jeff was like, no, we actually came here to ask for something. And that's when I said, I want to do a restorative justice process. I want my assailant to do extensive therapy. And then I want us to eventually meet in a mediated circle. And again, this one prosecutor was just super condescending. She said, oh, honey, rape is bad.
- Speaker #0
I cannot believe that response.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. And I said, I had my kind of baddie moment. I was like, yes, I agree. I think that rape is so bad that we have to do something different because rates of sexual assault haven't declined in 20 years. And so it's clearly not working. And so we kind of kept going back and forth like this. It wasn't getting anywhere. Then the other prosecutor who was in the room named Kara. She kind of leaned forward and she was like, you know what? I've been a prosecutor for almost 20 years and I constantly see victims re-traumatized, rapists acquitted. And in the rare case that they're incarcerated, they usually end up re-offending. So I agreed, like we need to do something different. And I left the room and the two of them were literally fighting for the case for months. And it was either going to be. that Kara got the case and we did this process that I really wanted, or that the other prosecutor got the case, and then I would drop the charges and nothing would happen. She's really fighting for nothing at all. And like you emphasize this when you brought that statistic up, like people don't realize that when they're saying this is the only option that should exist, they're fighting for nothing 99.03% of the time, because those are the stats. of how often it ends with the person walking free.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And even if they do go to jail, like, because I can understand, like, well, how can we be sure they won't do this again? Like, I'm sure that's a topic that gets brought up. But to your point, even if they do go to jail, the max I've ever heard of is, like, a few years. I mean, I remember a terrible case a few years ago where a salient was literally caught in the act and they only went to jail for four months. It's not really preventing anything. And as you said, the conditions of prison actually make it more likely for it to happen again.
- Speaker #1
What is this logic? And we see it everywhere. We see it with cancel culture. We see it with detention. It's this logic of like, if we take a violent person and severely traumatize them, that will be good. It's like, will it?
- Speaker #0
Right. It's like you get the seed of why people do it, right? Because it's like, OK, something bad happened and that person should be held accountable. Yes, I get that piece. I'm Sicilian. I get the drive for justice. I do get it. I've always tended more like you, but I've seen many people in my family hold like a vengeance and like not. kill anyone, I want to be clear, but like whole grudges for the rest of their lives. I've always tried to like be more on the side of, well, let's look at it from this perspective and see the whole picture. But it's not easy. And if it worked to be like that, fine. But the thing I want to keep coming back to with this conversation is the violent ways of seeking justice don't prevent violence.
- Speaker #1
They don't prevent violence and they also don't necessarily meet the needs of the person harmed. So like I could hold that vengeance. I could fight like hell to have him incarcerated, but I still didn't get to ask the questions that were keeping me up for years. I still didn't get the apology. I still didn't have him do the deep work I needed him to do to never do this again to anyone else. Right. So it's like, who is actually winning? And I've connected with. So many survivors who have, even though it's like the rare outcome, like I have connected with survivors who have had their assailants incarcerated. And most of the time they're just really afraid of the retaliation that might happen when that person comes out. And they're like, I didn't get my closure. I didn't get my accountability. And that's something that I want to emphasize so much is because we have been taught to conflate. Here it is. Accountability with. punishment, but those aren't the same thing. And you can have someone be punished, say boy gets suspended in grade three for pushing a girl, but that doesn't mean he took accountability. We didn't see him for two weeks. He couldn't join us for recess, but he never necessarily said, this is something I did. I am feeling shame and remorse that I did this. I'm deeply sorry. I want to take ownership. What can I do to ensure that this. person feels a bit of closure and to make sure that I don't continue with this behavior and help to create a safe culture of the playground. Like we didn't get that from the suspension.
- Speaker #0
No, it's such a profound point.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. We left the prosecutors were fighting for the case. A few months later, I got a call that care of really fought for it and that we were going to have this restorative process. And again, I'll just emphasize like that moment alone was so cathartic. because it was the first time dating back to the trauma that I said, no, I don't want to do that thing. And the people said that actually matters. Let's listen, which is consent. Yeah. I was really, really, really grateful that like my voice was actually heard. And so at that point, my assailant started therapy right away and he did about seven months of therapy, which was so meaningful to me. And In that time, he was really unpacking, like, obviously, I don't know all the details because it's therapy, but the therapist would kind of provide general updates to like the mediators to communicate back to me. So at that time, he was really unpacking like everything that led him to justify this degree of violence. And anyone who's used the words like rape culture before knows that sexual violence doesn't happen like out of the blue. So it's very rare that someone just like commits violence out of the blue, the sort of like monster in a bush psychopath narrative. Like that's not really the norm. Like 80% of the time it's someone the victim knows. Right. So rape culture is like all these little things in our, in our society that justify degrading women, power dynamics, catcalling, groping, locker room talk, seeing the president be an abuser. Like. all of these things that kind of teach us that this behavior is okay. So he was doing that deep work of unlearning and unpacking patriarchy essentially. And that was really meaningful to me. Like that was huge. Yeah. So then after about seven months, we agreed like everyone was feeling ready to meet in this circle. And restorative justice also takes a community oriented approach, which means that it recognizes that more than one person is impacted by a trauma. So for example, like this really changed my mom's life in a big way. And she actually went on to do her master's in counseling at age 63. And she says that like this restorative process was the catalyst.
- Speaker #0
That is so amazing.
- Speaker #1
I know. Yeah. I already know I'm going to share this with her and she'll be like bawling. But yeah. So I was like, I want her in the circle. And I also wanted my assailant to have a close friend in the circle because that to me was like a way of deepening accountability. Like he couldn't just walk away and pretend it never happened. Like his best friend ended up being there. Wow.
- Speaker #0
How did you even think to do that? How did you think to have his best friend? And did you have a specific requirement on who the person should be to him?
- Speaker #1
No, I think I was just like, he should have someone who's close to him. It shouldn't just be him solo. I think my biggest fear for the circle was what if he just shows up, arms crossed, sitting back, super disengaged, gets the check mark. I showed up. What do you want from me? Walks away. I think the community approach of like having the people around you who see you in a certain light, like our friends, like they see us as these like wonderful human beings. And to take accountability for something as horrific as rape in front of your best friend, like that takes some really deep like soul searching and work. And like, that's what I wanted. Like, I wanted this to like really break a cycle. I wanted this to break a cycle. Right. We also had meetings with the mediators beforehand, like one-to-one to talk about like our fears are like best possible outcomes. Like what would make the room feel safer, which is really just so trauma informed and like so opposite to a courtroom. We got to the circle that day and I was still scared. Like I won't minimize that. Like in an ideal world, we don't talk. about the best way to address sexual violence because we don't have sexual violence. There's not going to be any rainbows and sunshine approach to like justice for sexual violence. It was still scary, but we went in that day and I remember like the mediators just asked us one question, which was what brought you here today? And we spent eight hours speaking to that. A lot of people will be like, that's a really long time. Like. like God, but I'm very grateful because they said, you know, it takes as long as it takes. Like we don't heal on a capitalist courtroom schedule. Like I can't say Lauren, we're going to need you to heal your trauma by like 7 PM Eastern. Like that's just not how human beings work. So that was really meaningful. And it gave me the time and space to like actually voice everything. And they passed around like a talking piece so that. no one could kind of like cut you off or interrupt. And the first time I spoke, I did just have all the space to like, get everything out of my body that I'd been holding in for years and ask the questions and look him in the eye and like, gauge his response and see that he was like, really hearing me. And that was really cathartic. And then by the time it got to him in the circle, you know, It was this like, kind of like, what is he going to say moment? And he sort of like led us in on his accountability journey. And he talked about how when he was first charged, he did really minimize this. Like he did really almost feel like he was the victim of this like court process. And he said it was because this was so out of line with like. how he saw himself in the world, like the classic, like, but I'm a nice guy narrative. And so he just couldn't like the cognitive dissonance, like he couldn't like face it. And it wasn't until a friend in his life, like a woman that he kind of saw as a sister came to him and she told him just, I was going to say coincidentally, but I guess the stats show that it's not a coincidence. But she basically told him that like she'd experienced sexual violence from someone else. And he felt heartbroken because she was like a sister to him. And he said like the moment he felt that for her, it was like all of his memories from that night unlocked. And he was so overwhelmed with shame and remorse that he was actually considering like taking his life at that point. And around the same time is when I started pushing for restorative justice. So when his lawyers came to him and they were like, yo, like this chick wants you in therapy. And then to do a dialogue, like it was mutually essential. Like, I don't want anyone to get it twisted and think that like, I did this to save him. Like, it's not that it's not that it's like I did this because it's what I deeply needed. And the magic of it is that it's also what he deeply needed. in order to keep living and also in order to stop being violent. So he shared all that. And then he talked about therapy and like everything he unpacked in that space and everything he's been doing differently now in terms of how he treats women, how he treats alcohol, how he treats sex, how he treats the media, like all of these things. And then, you know, like he looked me in the eyes and he said, I'm sorry. I sexually assaulted you. And there's nothing I can do to take it back. But I hope that being here today can help. I think for a lot of people, they might be like, oh, like it's not enough. Right. But I think that we're so trained in these punitive processes to like turn towards the perpetrator. And we are fighting so hard for their punishment that we don't even realize we've turned away from the survivor. And if people. turn back to me in that moment, that was so huge to a degree that I did not even know I needed. It felt like this knot untied in my stomach and I just started bawling these tears of relief. And honestly, it felt like we were healing my own shit, patriarchy shit, intergenerational trauma. It felt that big.
- Speaker #0
I love that moment. I mean, it's just such a profound moment for so many reasons. I love when you describe the not, and I want to ask about that. But I'm just thinking about like, how often do we get any apology, any genuine apology in our whole lives, even for small things, let alone one of the worst or the worst thing that ever happened to us. For somebody to take accountability and genuinely apologize, I think the reason people think it's not enough is because maybe they've never actually gotten that.
- Speaker #1
Hmm. Yeah, I think that's a great point. And again, like, even if someone gets punished, you still might not get that. Like, I have a friend who went through the court process for five years. And she said the whole time, she said, I just want the truth to come out. And it never did. It was huge. And the mediators could have said like, wow, let's wrap it up now. But they didn't. They were like, okay, we've looked back, but what now? And what moving forward? And it actually became really empowering and really hopeful at that point. Like I was kind of like, you have this opportunity to like use your story. Like I'm using mine because I was already doing advocacy and sexual violence prevention work at that point. Like I was hosting fundraisers for like, and rape on campus and whatnot. I was just like, you should use your story to like help disrupt violence too. And it became like really. empowering and I remember the mediators before the circle they said you're gonna leave this circle like and you're gonna feel connected to everyone in the room and I was like okay but I felt honestly happy towards the end I was able to contextualize what he did in the story of like his life and in this story of like rape culture and patriarchy And being able to contextualize that harm for me, that naturally became a doorway to feel compassion towards him. I'll be very clear, like that's not a prerequisite to do this process. You don't need to like forgive. You don't need to love. But that is what happened. Like I understood the context and then I felt compassion. And I also just felt like so proud of myself. And also to come back to this thing we were talking about, like. It restored my faith in my own belief system of like humanity and the world and healing is possible. And we're not born bad. We're all just navigating like trauma and societal trauma. And if we unpack that shit, like maybe we can actually treat each other quite beautifully. You know, after the trauma, like I said, I really invalidated all of that and thought it was what got me hurt. And this allowed me to kind of have that soul moment of like, wow, like my soul was right. This takes so much strength. This takes so much courage, but I'm keeping this and I'm like embodying this and fighting for it and advocating for it like every day for the rest of forever. So that piece was like so huge too.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I'm thinking about that not moment. What do you think was untying? in that moment and getting released?
- Speaker #1
I think it's probably like the degree of gaslighting that happens like first and foremost to ourselves with like self-blame, like you were stupid, you caused this, you know, or it really wasn't that bad. Look at her trauma. Her trauma was way worse. Like you should, you're fine. Like, but then if we go out a little further, we see the cultural gaslighting of like victim blamers and people calling. rape victims, career destroyers. And then if we look at this, if we go out even further and look at like the court system, the whole thing is based on this idea of. Either the victim's lying and he's innocent or he's lying and she's innocent. You kind of like go through this process where they're trying to show the courtroom how, for lack of a better word, they're trying to show that you're crazy. And like, I say that word because it is problematic. Like they're trying to be like, look at this crazy woman. And they're really, really kind of strategy is. as defense lawyers is can we confuse her enough or emotionally poke at her enough that she breaks down? And then we say, look, everyone, look how unstable she is. How can we believe her? And the impact of that for years from like a respected institution that holds so much power is really fucked. Like it's really. Like, I think it took me a long time to have conversations and be like, Marley, you're not in court right now. Like, you can just talk.
- Speaker #0
Right. Because you felt like you were always defending yourself.
- Speaker #1
And your credibility. And I think women and like any marginalized human being like knows that experience where you walk into the room and you're like, everyone has already counted me out. And I have to spend every second I have with the mic proving them wrong. And either I'm going to do that or they're going to be like, see, we were right. there she's an idiot and that is so like it just shrinks you all the way down and so I think the knot I felt was like probably like a lifetime of that and then also like I do like think about like ancestors a lot and so like you know just like the many many women who have come before me and felt that sort of like having that moment through me and then all of the victims who never felt that like I feel so connected to survivors globally like that is what fuels everything I do I like pull survivors into the room and I'm like okay like let's fight for the justice we deserve right and so I think like you were saying there's just so many people who don't get that and I think I just like felt that so viscerally like in my own body and how has your life changed since then you
- Speaker #0
How do you see, obviously it's happening through your work and the fact you talk about this all the time, but what are the direct impacts in your quality of life, in your healing, from taking a restorative justice approach?
- Speaker #1
It was just so empowering. And I think what would have happened if I went through with the criminal trial or dropping the charges and doing nothing is that I would have taken 50 steps back in my healing and I'd have to keep trudging through. I'd like to think that I like would have gotten to a place of healing. And I do think that's important to say because like not everyone has had this process. Right. So it's like, I don't think I'd be like totally screwed, but I think I would have been really set back. And there was like a moment in the circle where when he talked about his own journey with accountability and how he like minimized it at first, I had this kind of glimpse because I was like, is this his narrative? Like, because he was telling it chronologically, I was like, is he going to shift out of this point where he's minimizing it? Do you know what I mean? So for a moment, I felt like I was glimpsing what people experience in a criminal trial, because even if the person gets punished, they're still reading off the script the lawyer has given them where they're lying. And that is like, I have never felt fury like that. Like just that moment where I was like, I thought he was denying it still. I remember telling Jeff, I was like, I feel like my body like turned to a statue, like cracked and then imploded. Like it was so, and I was like, wow, that's where a criminal trial ends. There's so much like reclamation that has to happen over after that, because there's so much that's been taken. I got to experience the opposite where it's like my justice process catalyzed my healing. It didn't. act as an obstacle to it. And I felt that like I came out of the circle and I remember them asking me like, does any part of you want to do a trial still? Like, does any part of you feel incomplete? And I was like, I feel more closure than I, and healing than I like ever thought was possible. Like I left the room happy and like reconnected with my voice and like. reconnected with hope and my view of the world like it was so huge and then also like I do think it's not separate from my work because I do think my work is like a continued catalyst of that healing and connection and like magic because I went to the media after that like that was my choice I said like I want to be loud about this because I want every survivor to at least know that this option exists and when I went to the media like six articles ended up coming out on the same day like Forbes, HuffPost, BuzzFeed and I was a little nervous like I was like what are our victims going to be like you know like we don't want this like be quiet. But I ended up receiving like thousands and thousands of messages. And I still get these messages from survivors literally all over the world saying, I wish I knew about this. And people saying like, I went through court. It tore my family apart. I wish I had known about this. Or people saying, I never went to the police because it's not safe for me as a Black or Indigenous or trans person. And I wish I knew about this. So I just kept hearing all of these stories where the thread was like, I wish I knew. And that really became the fuel for me to do what I'm doing now, which is like speaking and storytelling work and even advocacy that's rooted in storytelling. Because I think the power of survivor stories and I think the power of a story that says, here's a pathway forward for justice. I think that's so important. Like when we look at just the level of like devastation and the lack of justice in the world, and we feel the degree of helplessness that like so many of us do as we do scroll through Instagram, like I think these narratives where we say, oh wow, like this could be a pathway forward. This could be something that we do with all of this trauma and pain. Like I think that is so essential. So yeah, all that to say that like it changed my life in the most beautiful way. And then also rippled out to change everyone's lives. Like I said, my mom's a therapist. Like my assailant's life was changed. His best friend who was in the circle, his life was changed because he was like sobbing and sobbing. And he was like, I've learned more today than I have in my entire life. Like Jeff cites this too as a huge catalyst in him. walking away from being a lawyer and becoming like a full-time restorative justice mediator. So
- Speaker #0
Jeff, we love Jeff. You know, it's something you and I talked about before, because so many people are concerned with like what happens after, you know, if the person doesn't go to prison, what happens? And so I had asked you, do we have like an update on what has happened and like how your assailant has changed? in the aftermath of this transformative session. It's a climactic. Is that a word?
- Speaker #1
Anticlimactic.
- Speaker #0
Anticlimactic response. Because I don't really like after the circle, I was like, we don't need to be friends, which I think is a great thing for people to know. Like you can still have compassion and boundaries like you can still. Right. So I was like, we don't need to like hang out. Yeah. But this was really powerful. Typically in a restorative justice process, which by the way, can be directly through an organization. Like if you're already aware that this exists and you look up like your state and restorative justice, there are organizations in your area. You can contact them directly. You don't have to go through the whole court process. That's just how it played out in mine.
- Speaker #1
That's good to know. I was going to ask you tips for like if someone's listening and says, you know, they're in the midst of something like this, how they can reach. restorative justice?
- Speaker #0
I feel like a website link is like so weird when we're being so like deep, but I'm like, if people go to marleylist.com slash resource, I have created like a global restorative justice resource guide and people can see the organizations that exist in their area. And they can also see books and documentaries and podcasts like about this topic. So typically a restorative justice process is going to be wraparound. And what that means basically is there's a before, a during, and an after. So we're not just throwing to people in a room for a dialogue and like crossing our fingers and hoping for the best. The before is like, there's a lot of prep that goes into it. The during is going to be like whatever is meaningful to the person. So for me, that was therapy in circle. For someone else, it could be. volunteer work, exchanging letters, a virtual dialogue. It could be a dialogue just with bystanders or complicit people. It could also be what's called a surrogate circle, where a victim meets with a person who caused harm to someone else and is taking full accountability. And people talk about that in the very same way that I talk about my circle. They're like, it was so healing. That's the during. And then the after is going to be the follow-up. Anyone who's learned about like trauma-informed intimacy before has probably heard the term aftercare. It's basically that it's like, what does the care look like afterwards? Not in an intimate way. That was just an example, but yeah. So then you're kind of deciding what do we want to do? Do we want to have like a check-in one month from now? Do we want the mediators to like, make sure the person keeps doing therapy? So that is the one thing that I feel like my process lacked. And something my assailant said in the circle was that he now wants to play a role in disrupting violence. And he talked about like getting involved in those movements.
- Speaker #1
Wow.
- Speaker #0
I don't know if he's done that. He might have done that, but I do really wish that the mediator said, we're going to hold you accountable to that. We're going to help get you connected with organizations you can volunteer with. And we're going to update Marley on it. That's the one thing that I'm like, I wish we did that.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. And it sounds like because yours was, obviously, there had been North American ones in the past, like with indigenous cultures. But the first one that happened through the court system, you were really setting a lot of precedents, which I'm sure have evolved. Has it been five years now?
- Speaker #0
Oh, my gosh. Maybe. Yeah. I think it's been like about. Yeah. Yeah. The circle is 2019.
- Speaker #1
You and I could sit forever. And this is such a deep. topic and you'll just have to come back sometime. But I do want to end on a beautiful and positive note, which is reclaiming, well, two things, your pleasure and your joy for life and belief in people. Would you just tell me a little bit about what that journey has been like and where you're at with it now?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I think it was woven into my justice journey, which is like, a very creative and rare and beautiful thing because we we have been taught to be complacent with a justice experience that's not going to like we're just like oh you can't expect justice to be healing like that's just how it is and we're all we're all kind of taught to be like that's just how it is so that complacency so I think the act of being like no you My healing, my sense of safety, my right to pleasure, my right to joy, that needs to be woven into justice in order for it to be real justice. That's us, like, removing the bar from the floor and, like, raising our standards a whole lot higher, which I think we need to collectively do. And then I'd say, like. Somatics played a really big role, like body-based healing. Writing, like writing got me through because dance was always my love language. Like I grew up dancing and after trauma, I couldn't, I was too mad at my body to dance. And I don't know if I'd be here if I didn't have writing, like it really became. This place of like, there's so much destruction in my head and now I'm getting it out of my body and onto paper and I'm making something like artful and intentional and creative with it. Like, so that was huge. And these days, this is why creativity is my word of the year. Cause I'm just like, these days, all I want is to like bask in creative energy and surround myself with creative people. Like. I just want to dance, sing, and like make art of life. I weave that into everything. I weave that into my advocacy. That's why I identify with like storytelling rather than like giving a lecture, you know?
- Speaker #1
Today I'm here to lecture you.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, like when I do my keynotes and stuff, like I'm just like, I'm storytelling. I'm like orchestrating emotions. Like it's really quite artful. And I think that allows... the joy and the magic and the color to be there. I really love like the book Pleasure Activism by Adrienne Marie Brown, because it just talks about how not only is our pleasure essential to make activism sustainable, but it's like our pleasure actually is our activism because all of these systems, like all of these oppressive systems, they don't want us to be joyful. floating in the ocean, like marveling at butterflies twirling on the street. Like that's not how capitalism and whatnot will continue thriving. So it's like when we embrace and live those things, like there is so much power in that. And we are breaking cycles of like violence and systemic oppression by embodying those things. So I think like learning about that and really feeling that has been a huge part of like my joy as well. I could say a lot more, but I know we're getting to talk.
- Speaker #1
I know. Well, I just, to wrap up, I think your story is such a beautiful example of how creativity is life-saving with the writing, how we can use creativity and find creative solutions to the world and to our deepest problems and pains and traumas, and what I call soul-cial justice, S-O-U-L-C-I-A-L, justice. And that is exactly what you did. It is a more, in my opinion, loving, sustainable, and effective approach to actually making change in the world. So I just thank you for who you are, for the ideas you've brought forth to help other people or the ideas you've resurrected and carried forward with the ancestors to help other people start having a similar type of healing and to just... be the joyful person you are in the world because I highly recommend to follow not just because you listening will gain so many amazing ideas and tools and like ways we can actually make the world a better place but also you're just a joyful person I mean you are dancing now and it is so much fun to watch so I do feel like every time I look on your page I'm like wow this girl loves life and it makes me love life so most importantly thank you for being who you are It's the best thing about you. And I'm grateful we spent this time together.
- Speaker #0
Me too. Thank you so much. I really am so grateful and just stand so wholeheartedly with like all of the messages that you share and embody with this podcast and all of your work too.
- Speaker #1
Thank you, Marley. Thank you for listening. And thanks to my guest, Marley Liss. For more info on Marley, follow her at MarleyLiss and check out her website, MarleyLiss.com. Unleash Your Inner Creative is hosted and executive produced by me, Lauren LaGrasso. Produced by Rachel Fulton with theme music by Liz Fole. Again, thank you, Creative Cutie, for listening. If you like what you heard today, remember to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Share the show with a friend and post about it on social media. Tag me, at Lauren LaGrasso, and at Unleash Your Inner Creative. and I will repost to share my gratitude. Also tag Marley so she can share as well. My wish for you this week is that you embrace your own healing journey as a creative act, one that allows you to reclaim your authenticity and transform your pain into strength. Marley's story is proof that you can challenge the status quo and heal on your own terms. I love you, and I believe in you. Talk with you next week.
