Transcription

• Speaker #0

  When was the last time you had a really honest conversation, sharing about what's difficult in your life and creative journey, and even in the world? Today you'll hear a heart-to-heart between friends, ranging on topics from how to solve the world's problems to how to solve the problems of our own creative journey. Stay tuned to hear two people get rebelliously curious and speak straight. Welcome to Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LaGrasso. I'm Lauren LaGrasso. I'm a Webby Award-winning podcast host and producer, singer-songwriter, public speaker, and multi-passionate creative. This show sits at the intersection of creativity, mental health, self-development, and spirituality, and it is meant to give you tools to love, trust, and know yourself enough to claim your right to creativity and pursue whatever it is that's on your heart. Today, you'll hear a conversation between me and one of my dear friends, Yemi Penn. You all loved the episode that I re-aired with Yemi a few weeks ago. You loved it so much that I wanted to have her back on to share more. In case you need a refresher, Yemi is a British-born and first-generation Nigerian author, engineer, TEDx speaker, podcaster, PhD researcher, and entrepreneur whose mission is to help others overcome and transform their trauma. Yemi and I always have such honest, thought-expanding conversations. And today, my intent is to drop you in the middle of one. A lot of times when we finish our talks, I'm like, I wish we just recorded this. And so today, I decided to get ahead of it and just record it. So our chat today delves into topics such as finding creative solutions for the world's problems, rooting out extremism within ourselves, and a deep dive into navigating the financial and emotional struggles we experience as creatives. Yemi's insights from her personal research and experience add so much to these topics. I know you'll get a lot out of it. And she's just an amazing person. From today's chat, you'll learn practical steps for upgrading yourself energetically and spiritually, how to rewrite your money story, ways to integrate joy and resilience into daily life, and how to start to become a curious rebel. Okay, now here she is, Yemi Penn. My sweet friend, Yemi, Yemi Penn, I'm so happy that you're here with me and we are sitting down doing this podcast, continent to continent. Welcome back to Unleash Your Inner Creative.

• Speaker #1

  So excited. Like I'm literally so excited because I'm a different version to whoever I was whenever last we spoke in this kind of medium. Like I'm so excited on what we're going to like uncover.

• Speaker #0

  Me too. I mean, our last podcast was so cool because you literally heard two people become friends over the course of an hour.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, it did. We did create something and then we met in person. And then since then, if we actually wrote it down, it'd be wild because these are the things people don't think are possible through the internet. And that's what we created.

• Speaker #0

  yeah true friendship to the point where I'm coming to your wedding in the fall I'm so excited thank you oh wow yes but I just wanted to have you on today because you and I always have great conversations and after even though I'm so happy they're just for us I'm always a little bit disturbed that we didn't record them after because I'm like man I feel like that would have been so helpful for people yeah definitely and so we got on today and kind of brainstormed before this and just talked through what we feel the collective is thinking about feeling and what has been on our hearts and on our minds. And one thing that we talked about, well, at first I was like, I don't know if we should go that heavy that fast. And you're like, well, it's kind of all heavy, so let's just go for it. But the thing that we talked about was, how are we actually going to solve our world's problems? And I think what's happening right now, due to a lot of things, is it just seems to be getting more and more and more divisive. and there's less perspective-taking, empathy, compassion, curiosity happening, which, as we know, are really the only ways to make use of our pain and try to heal from it. And so I guess I pose that very big question to you. From what you're seeing, and you're working on your PhD, and you've got all this amazing research, but you also do something called MeSearch and then WeSearch. But from all of that that you've been collecting and observing, what will get us out of some of the heaviest things that we're dealing with and holding in humanity?

• Speaker #1

  when you give it more words and you string the words together into a sentence, it definitely sounds heavy. And I guess I want to highlight that to some people, they might not be thinking about this. That's something else we have to acknowledge, that we can all be in our own echo chambers. So I completely appreciate that there might be some people thinking, you know, I think we're fine. And others thinking, yeah. So I want to acknowledge that this might not be the experience everyone's having, but we cannot ignore the fact as an adult, anybody who's got any form of responsibilities is feeling impacts. possibly because of how polarized the world is. So when you say, how can we get out of it? My immediate thought is if I'm going to be really responsible, I don't know. And we need more people to at least just start off with that. However, I truly believe that one way is rebellious curiosity. I didn't think I would be saying that again, because it just feels like a nice tagline. It's to get curious. one thing I picked up and there is a book I think it's called patterns and cycles but I get really curious and I'm loving anything creative surprise surprise that we are on this together any creative medium of sharing historical events from different perspectives I am so curious and it has to be creative because if it's just words I feel like I'm just being programmed if it's creative outlets, whether it's documentaries, music, miming, whatever it is, what it's doing is it's allowing my body to interpret it in a way that I guess I need to receive it. Doesn't mean it's fully right or the truth, but it's one way. And look, I say that because freedom is my highest value. And I think a lot of us have had our freedom taken away by being told how to think. which is the reason why we have the high polarization, because we have been taught and raised in a way that this is what's right and this is what's wrong. And it's been very linked to our belief systems. And a really good job has been done. And please hear in my tone that I'm not trying to wrong or belittle anything. But in that rigidity of what we've been taught is right and wrong, we cannot see or hear anything else. Now, I'm going to tell you right now, my dear friend Lauren, is that there are some people who are thinking, yeah, I wish those other people. would listen to you and hear because you already have the assumption that you are in the right. So I'm speaking to those of us that really believe that what we think is right to pause for a second to suspend our ego and disbelief and see if we can get in the seat of the person that we are so sure are absolutely wrong. rebellious curiosity, because it's rebellious, because I'm asking you to for just a couple of minutes, maybe days, maybe even weeks, to rebel against your own notion that what you're thinking is right.

• Speaker #0

  So much to break down from that. First of all, will you define rebellious curiosity for me? I know that's what you describe yourself as, as a curious rebel, but what does that mean in practice?

• Speaker #1

  so if I'm to be radically honest, which is another thing that we're going to need to get through this, firstly, it was a tagline for people to just understand who I am. And I knew that I needed a word that kind of balanced all the energies, masculine, feminine, whatever in between and around, is because the term rebel or rebellious on its own has been used a lot and has been associated with a number of atrocious acts. I didn't want that to limit the opportunities for me to speak. and then the curious was meant to soften that. So the curious was just meant to say, kind of someone just peeping in. And even that in some cultures, the curious is wrong. Like, you know, I grew up, you know, saying, you know, curiosity killed the cats. Like I think I always blame my mom. It might not have been a mom. It might've been my auntie. Just really saying, you got to remember that cat died, boo. But my curiosity is saying, but that cat had nine lives. I'm willing to try a couple of times. So firstly, I want to say that the tagline is just to balance energy so that I can reach more people than not. but what it really means is to get curious about why you think the way you do. And then the rebelliousness is to challenge it. Not for somebody else, yourself. Maybe there are steps and sequences to it, but I think that's where we get overwhelmed, which is why when you said, how do we solve it? We can get overwhelmed. I just start with, I don't know, but this is a start. Get curious about your beliefs and then challenge them.

• Speaker #0

  well to me what I hear you saying is how do you solve it you solve it in yourself I mean I can't force anybody to go follow and read the works and experience the art of somebody that they disagree with but I can do that I like to follow pages on Instagram this is a small thing but that are in exact opposition to each other so I can understand where each group is coming from and then also read things that are in the middle so I can form my own ideas instead of just globbing on to whatever the people around me are thinking. That's kind of why my main platforms are self-love, self-trust, and self-knowledge. I believe everything. starts inside of us. If everybody did that, think of how different our world would be.

• Speaker #1

  But seriously, I mean, let's just pause on that. If everybody did that, can we think how much better, peaceful our world will be? And I'm just going to make a note because I do want to talk about peace versus liberation. But imagine that because when you say, how do we do it immediately? How do we solve these things immediately? Even I, like, you know, I can feel a little bit of anxiety. I'm saying, as you are, and I'm sure a lot. of other people are saying, if we truly start with ourselves, it's also a numbers game. If we started with ourselves and just checked, but it's a lot of work, I don't want to underestimate it, but it's easier to do it with ourselves than to do it on somebody else. And you're either going to be having power over somebody in when you do that, or you're going to be manipulating them to think a certain way. If we just stop trying to immediately fix everything else, or at least at the same time, look at ourselves, I truly believe it have a positive impact on the world.

• Speaker #0

  because you do it on yourself and then you share what you learned from an authentic place, but not from a place of you have to do this or else you're bad. Yeah. Because then that's just more of the same energy that we're trying to not fix, but like fix in ourselves. Like if I want extremism to stop in the world, I have to fix it in myself first because I'm going to just keep gravitating toward extremism and extreme thoughts. If everything is just one extreme or the other inside of me, that's what I'm going to go out there and see. and if I can actually get to a more neutral place inside of myself, a more loving place inside of myself, then that's the kind of energy I'm bringing to the world in all my interactions.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And look, I get that. And this is me. So this is me tapping into other forms of mass consciousness. And this is me being rebelliously curious as we speak. Some people might think, well, this is a very nice kumbaya response, like, and say, well, that hasn't worked. And there's a part of me that completely agrees, but I'm saying as a star. whatever change it is you are trying to make in the world, to do it from a place that has not been looked at internally from a curious lens, yes, loving lens, I just think we become part of the problem. We can't get to there from here.

• Speaker #0

  I would challenge saying it hasn't worked. Has it ever been tried? I don't think it's really been tried on a mass scale. We've tried war. We've tried killing each other. We've tried shaming each other and saying, you're bad. No, you're bad. No, you're bad. No, you're bad. That's been tried. That's being played out right now. We're seeing how well that's working. I don't know that actually trying to be the change that you wish to see in the world has ever been tried on a mass scale.

• Speaker #1

  why is that hitting me harder than I thought? Like you asked me, and I'm literally searching in every space. I'm getting some physical reactions because I'm hearing a part of my brain saying, yeah, but that's not possible. And I don't like that part of my brain that's saying that, but I want to honor it. Is it possible? But what if that doesn't matter? What if I just put that to the side and say, but can we have more, whatever you want to call us, leaders, humans sharing that? and I guess a big part of why I'm doing the work I'm doing, you're doing the work you're doing, is one thing I just want to highlight that I guess I'm trying to counteract that part that came in. Mo Gordot, who was the CFO or CEO of Google X back then, he said something about AI. So you know how you said you follow some pages, especially people that think differently, you read some of the comments. He said, all the stuff we're putting out, we're feeding into AI. So AI is only going to pick up the stuff that humans are putting in. So he said on the premise that AI is not going anywhere anytime soon, some of us are just going to have to get used to putting good stuff. So AI knows that humans actually also have an alternative perspective. That emotion you're feeling, my friend, that's how I felt. And I thought, ah, keep showing up, Yemi. Keep showing up because AI will pick that up. what came up for you? What was that?

• Speaker #0

  Well, I love AI. And I'm like, I wanted to know that we're good. It made me like feel hopeful. And it made me feel sad because I am in those comment sections and I read them. And that's why, I mean, frankly, I follow a lot of pages that are pro-Palestine and a lot of pages that are pro-Israel, because I think it's important for me to understand how the furthest extreme of both ends of what's going on right now are thinking. and it's always wild to me in the comments because it's like the people are living in two different worlds yeah and it's not just that i mean go on anything political in the united states like you'll see people who are commenting from completely different versions of reality it's fascinating it's disheartening it's it's a lot but what what do we want what is the alternative because that's something else we're gonna have to do and you

• Speaker #1

  And the more I get curious and I say watch documentaries from different perspectives, the more I pick up as far back as my brain and my being will allow is that we've lived in a world where we're constantly trying to section borders of countries to know who's going to govern that piece of land or area or air. that's what's coming up in my curiousness is that that appears to be one of the fundamental foundations of homo sapiens humans as a species in the past i don't know it feels like a couple of centuries that's where my me search is so that's not part of my research but my me search is what is this what is this thing that's happening all this polarity and then when i go back and with my research which is bringing up that a lot of people's cultural trauma is linked back to world war ii in particular, I've got even more curious and then undertaken some more research of what is this? And it's always appeared to be either a group of people or maybe one very dominant person wanting to have the biggest border, i.e. just area that they can control that we now call a country.

• Speaker #0

  I think that all of the bad things in the world come out of fear and trying to control to like quell your fear and trauma responses. all I see when I look at the world's problems are traumatized people, traumatizing people, re-traumatizing people, traumatizing people. It's just like that Fiona Apple song I sent you, evil is a relay sport when the one who's burned turns to pass the torch. Like that's what I see. Before we go on, define me search, because I don't know if people know what that means, and we search.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And I want to say, so I heard this from Linda Tai, who once again, her content has been really great for my research, but it's just been great for so many other things. so linda tai is a vietnamese refugee who came to australia but now lives in alaska and really big in the field she's going to be on my podcast in a couple of in a couple of weeks and she mentions this idea of me search and i just leaned in and i thought oh my god never heard this but this is where we go it's effectively like curiosity you go and undertake research but for yourself for me you So that's what that is. So I'm not submitting it to a university or academic. I'm not waiting for any typical system, typically colonial system to say, yep, this work is valid and it's been peer reviewed. It is valid because you've taken the research for yourself. That's what me search is. We search is that we do it together in community, that we can sit down, we can have a chat, that I can sit on this podcast with you and we can invite someone who is pro-Palestine, we can invite someone who's pro-Israel, like the how. is always going to be the challenge the minute we get to research. But it's actually just empower people to undertake gathering of different knowledge, noting that they might not get this academic degree or award.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. And then when it goes back to the bordering and the country's piece, like what do you take away from that? What do you find to be the thesis statement of that or the headline of that, that if we could get underneath that of whatever is driving people to conquer, quote unquote. it could stop this violent pattern.

• Speaker #1

  It's very easy at this point for me to feel disempowered because the first thing I do is just an awareness of it. And then I realize how much of a bubble I have been in through no fault of my own or that of my family. That's number one, is to acknowledge that. Oh, so when you're in Australia or America at the moment, the way you're operating is just through sheer existence when it turns out that they're a group of people. So it makes me lean into politics more than I've ever done before. especially with my my closeness and proximity with America especially when Obama got in and even listening to Michelle Obama and once again this was based on trust I needed to see people that I felt I could trust so when they were talking about it I never still quite understood it but that's what that knowledge of borders and this fight for power but then it brings me very closely to my research and research which is trauma which is why are people fighting for protection because and I don't know where it started but something as simple as tribal people in Africa and different countries in Africa sitting down making their fire and colonialists come in and just take over like I've said that in in the most non-triggering way possible but all we have to do is sit down and imagine it's been happening for centuries and not just in African countries where people come take over because their resources or they want the land or whatever we've been doing it for centuries I don't know the original origins, but can we understand that some people have had their land, even though they don't think they own the land because a lot of indigenous companies just believe they're custodians of the land, but they got completely overthrown. Eventually those people think, well, I've got to fight harder to make sure that no one comes for this again. I'm still in the awareness phase. What I do with it is eventually going to inform the things I put out in the world, but we've got to get to an awareness first.

• Speaker #0

  it's hard to think about because sometimes when I think about indigenous people or any number of people who got like taken over, it's like the fact that things got taken from them because of their goodness just really breaks my heart.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  because they felt that they were custodians of the land and realized that nobody owns anything, that it got stolen from them. But like, they didn't feel they had anything to steal because they also knew they were borrowing the land.

• Speaker #1

  Right.

• Speaker #0

  And that's what makes it so heartbreaking.

• Speaker #1

  It does. And I get chills, but I have opened the fact that we still have access to that understanding that we don't own it to begin with.

• Speaker #0

  yeah could all of it come from a fear that deep down everybody knows we own nothing and all we have is ourselves and each other

• Speaker #1

  bingo i mean we could end the podcast now on what you just said if we could all accept that in radical honesty that it is a fear that we we actually just don't take any of it and i know that right now we've got technology that can try to extend people's lives for as long as possible because we could have admitted that actually this fear is warranted because i need to make sure that there's comfort and no one's going to come and take our stuff again forever but then if we were to acknowledge we die what people are now doing is saying oh but i need to make sure i leave it for the generations after me and the ones after me and and that's why it becomes infinite like even now if I look at my particular community one of the communities that I strongly affiliated with acknowledging that it's not just one is the black community I'm not even the mindset of leaving intergenerational wealth like I'm not sure I've got the access to it yet because there's still survival for this generation that's alive you and I'm conscious that that is drastically different from a number of other people. So our ways of extracting from the land and from each other will be very different.

• Speaker #0

  Whoa, that's like an interesting, like, not a story, like a money truth that you are dealing with because you have been incredibly successful in your life. And I know that like money and the relationship to it and all of the lineage of it, probably in your bloodline. is something that you've like been thinking about lately and that's been playing out for you. Do you want to speak more on that or how do you feel? I do.

• Speaker #1

  I mean, we spoke about money and like money stories and, and look, we can, we can go back in because we were talking about, well, what can we talk about? And I, we spoke about the economy and, and the relationship we have with money in my book, which I wrote a little while ago.

• Speaker #0

  It's amazing. It's called, did you get the memo? Cause I fucking didn't. And, uh, yeah,

• Speaker #1

  same co-sign and I'm still waiting for the memo.

• Speaker #0

  I am waiting for someone to save me and I know that no one's coming, but it would just still be great. And I'm still in on that fantasy. So if someone wants to come, I'm here.

• Speaker #1

  You know, I was with a group of amazing women the other day and one of them said, yeah, no one's coming to save us. But there are some people that are willing to help you save you.

• Speaker #0

  Yes, I would take that too.

• Speaker #1

  and you know what that was comforting yeah it really really was comforting but it's going to take community it's going to take research it's going to take collective curiosity and I think so when you ask how do we get there these are some of the ways and we need leaders I didn't realize how important it is to have leaders and to have the internal dialogue with yourself on can I be one of them because we're the ones we're waiting for.

• Speaker #0

  So how do you know if you can be one of them?

• Speaker #1

  I think it comes to you. Where did I hear this from? Coop Blackson. And you will hear me say a lot of names and it must now be the researcher in me because I really want to acknowledge people that I've heard it from. Sometimes I forget, but please note that a lot of us are recycling information, but I really want to acknowledge Coop Blackson, who said, I heard from him a couple of years ago, our dreams choose us. So when you say, how would I know? It's because a dream will choose you. because of who we are as humans, we think we choose it. But I love this idea that you cannot dream or have a desire to do something without it being in some form of co-creation with you. You were the vessel. So when you have a feeling of, typically it's you're sitting down sometimes and you can see or hear somebody doing something. And if we got really curious and rebelliously curious. sometimes not infatuated, but you can just feel some sort of magneticism with that person. But it's actually also a calling of something that's already in you. And so you want to do that as well. And that's the invitation to get curious. But most of the time, your dream will choose you if you are really honest with yourself.

• Speaker #0

  But what do you do when a dream chooses you, you feel like it chose you, but then everything in the world is slamming doors at you? Because there's a lot of people listening right now who are having that experience. They felt chosen by the dream. It has been on their heart. And yet every time they try to go after it, it feels like another brick wall.

• Speaker #1

  and I've said it so many times, get curious. Is that dream still yours? Is it yours? Is it somebody else's? Because remember, we've also inherited stuff. Traditions are rules that have been made by dead people. So sometimes our dreams we might not realize, and this is where the blurred lines can be, could actually be someone else's. And it can be very confusing because you're like, oh, but I want this, but just check. And if it's not working out, try something different and I know I've said this to you personally especially off podcasts and stuff like I feel I'm in a different phase and it's really uncomfortable and there are many things that have not come to fruition I've gone from having million dollar contracts to go into bloody coffee shop here in Sydney and fucking being charged seven dollars fifty for a mint hot chocolate like what the hell like I'm going between cursing about that to saying okay let's fly back to America like my whole money story based on what's happening in the economy now, really is challenging me majorly. But I haven't thought about giving up once, but just changing something, either my mindset, or the things I'm doing or expecting or all of the above.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Well, maybe we shift into this a little bit now, because that's something I've been thinking about a lot lately. I've been hearing people talk about the economy. Sometimes when people first start talking about like, oh, we're going into a downturn. I wonder if they're making it happen. because they say it so much. and so I felt like that was what was happening initially, but then it did happen, and so, I mean, I guess it's here, and we have to deal with what the reality is, but, you know, I've, like, been trying to launch this podcasting course, and I think there's a lot of things that are going into it not being as big of a hit as I thought it would be. I think it's the economy. I think it's the price point. I think it's that it was a live course versus an online one. I think it's the first time I've sold something, so maybe... just people weren't prepared to like see me with something they have to actually pay for. You know, there's things that I've been proud of myself with. Like, I think it's the first I've had like something that didn't go to plan that I'm not shaming myself over. I'm not like, oh, you're so bad. This is happening because you're so bad and you just couldn't do it. So you suck. And that's why I am seeing the full context. I am feeling disappointed. and I'm trying not to stifle that too much because I don't want to like gloss over this like little twinge I do feel in my heart that I wish this was a bigger success than it is currently. But I think for the thing I am proud of and the thing that I am seeing is for the first time, I'm trying just to learn from it instead of like belittle myself over it. But it is slightly making me question myself because I'm like, am I not worth that? Like I really actually thought for my experience and having produced, you know, over two dozen shows, four of which were number one hit shows across multiple countries. Like, I thought that that was actually a fair price. And like, I do think like my worthiness feels a little bit shot right now.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. I'm so glad you named all of that. And if we could be more radically honest, then you just talk about your credentials, which are so on point as to why you are the person that people should learn from. And yet there are so many variables in that it doesn't feel like we have direct control over.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  How we then come back to still questioning our worth shows how much of a number society or life or whatever has done on us. I mean, the data is there that you have done stuff. and yet with all those variables, it's our worth that still comes up. I do the same about the number that we placed on it. Like we just assumed it's the price. We haven't assumed it's the time. We haven't assumed that the millions of people that you have impacted through the different podcasts that you have managed, yours included, potentially have not seen the offering you have. at the amount of times apparently the brain needs to see it and at the time that they could be bothered to pick up there are so many variables yeah the biggest one I think I think I underestimated how hard it would be to gather community to trust my offering and to make the time to pay and that it hurts yeah because there's so much free stuff and that's why I did that post on free labor and it hurts that I'm just not big enough yet for them to take a chance. because I'm under the assumption that when I and you get to this place of semi-global knowledge as in people around the world, especially, I mean, the world full stop know you, that we have a bigger percentage who would be willing to make a payment. Like these are some of the radically honest conversations I guess I just want to have.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, me too. I mean, I will say even my friends that have millions of followers are saying conversion is incredibly difficult right now. So I think there's some truth to that for sure. I think we for sure would have an easier time converting people if we just had more numbers. I mean, that's just true. But I do think right now in general, there's just a pain around money and time and trust, actually. You really need to have all three of those in order to convert into something that is a course or a coaching or an offering like that. And so I do understand where people are coming from, but I started tearing up when you mentioned the pain, like there is a pain because I'm like, I feel like I've bled out for the people that. I'm trying to serve. Like I've been doing this show five and a half years. I've like shared so much music. I've like invested so much of my own time and money into it. And like, there is a part of me that's like, will that ever be reciprocated?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  And they do reciprocate. It's not like I'm not getting any, like I get so much beautiful love back and there's plenty of people I support who I've never bought an offering from. So I'm grateful for what I have, but. I don't know. It's a complicated feeling.

• Speaker #1

  it is I think we need to create more spaces to talk about the things we thought would happen in the way that they seem to have done for other people because that's where we get the blueprint from we get the blueprint from the fact that we think we've seen it happen elsewhere but why isn't it happening for me but we have to acknowledge it's still a story it doesn't mean it's a wrong story or a right story but it is a story but we need the space to do that so that with that wisdom you we can maybe create another one, not end the dream, create another story, noting that we might need to change that again, because it does. And just as you were sharing that emotion, I was feeling it. And I do, I feel it often. And I'm not suggesting that you or anyone else sits in it for long. I actually just think if I sat in it for long, I'd ruin myself.

• Speaker #0

  Because I mean, I guess if we're going to go back to the top of our discussion, if I'm trying to root out extremism in the world via myself, I have to acknowledge that both are true. I feel so incredibly grateful for the support I've been given. Like you shared the course, first of all, like so many of my friends and even people I'm friendly with online have shared the course, shared it with their community, shared it with like, you know, one person that they were thinking might want it. all the people who listen to the show every week, all the people who engage with my posts and who have listened to my music, like I am grateful for every single thing that anyone's ever done to support my dreams. And I know in order to take my dreams to the next level, I need financial support too. And I guess, especially living in this extraordinarily capitalistic society, there's a part of me that feels shitty about myself. And I know that in my soul, that's not what I believe. but I've been sitting in this stew of you are what you do for so long that sometimes when what I do doesn't generate the one thing I'm told it should, it makes me feel like shit about myself.

• Speaker #1

  acknowledge that and name it and then get fucking curious about it. Because if that's what we have bought into is the memo or the blueprint and either it hasn't worked, doesn't mean we throw it out, we just tune it. But I'm inviting people to get really, honestly, it's the reason why I am as rebellious as I am. there is not one thing. It's the reason why I'm resettling in the United States. On paper, it feels wild, but for me to have the impact I want, I feel like that's what I need to do. I've got two kids who are still in school. There's a possibility I shouldn't be able to make that happen, but that's what I've been told. So therefore I just need to create another story. And that really is the invitation. Rewrite the memo. Let's pick some stuff up. And I just, can I just highlight this as well? Because I don't know if it's helping me or frustrating me at the same time, if I'm going to be honest. And it's not jealousy. Maybe it's envy, whichever one is the one thing.

• Speaker #0

  What is the difference? I never know.

• Speaker #1

  I don't know, but I know that because when we hear jealousy, we automatically assume that there's darkness and you're just in a corner, I don't know, trying to get a voodoo doll and stuff. Yeah, exactly. So, but it's the one that's not dark, but the one that drives me and sometimes it can be a bit shadowy. Anyway, I digress. but when you said the people have millions of followers or even subscribers are not converting as much remember that they are probably given some of them are probably saying what used to bring in 2 million is now only bringing in 750 000 and you and i are here thinking can a bitch get 25k yeah like that would be amazing right and look for listeners please apologize i do have a mouth it's nothing but love. I never want to be disrespectful to it.

• Speaker #0

  I swear all the time. So they're fine. They love it.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Okay. Okay. And so once again, it's, it's all context and, and who knows, we will get there. And I I've had a whole conversation with another friend who this idea of, cause I said, I'm tired of selling and being sold to, and that energy at some point will always impact whatever we put out. And so I know that sometimes there's also conflicting energy. I just want to name that as well. that we can have conflicting energy when we put stuff out. I put a course for $25. And I think it's been a couple of years now since I've been putting some offerings out, having never gone to school, learning that this was the thing. The only thing I learned was you go to school, you go, you get a degree and you get a job. No one even said there's a possibility you might not get a job. So when that doesn't happen, your whole identity is crumbled. That's why you got to get curious. What else is out there? Who are the people who have done things differently?

• Speaker #0

  Hey, creative, if you love the show and it is meant a lot to you, could you do me a favor? Rate and review on Apple. Give it a review on Spotify. Share it with a friend. These things all make a major difference in a podcaster's life and in growing their show. And I really want to build up this community of creatives who love, trust, and know themselves and love, trust, and deeply know others. So if you could do that and share the show with someone you care about, that would mean so much. All right. I love you. Well, I had a few things. What do you think I need to get curious about from listening?

• Speaker #1

  I think definitely get curious about, especially the people that you have supported to get the outcomes that you either want or you are benchmarking against. I'm not saying comparing, benchmarking. I think it's important or modeling, whatever it is. I'd say get curious about parts of their stories if you have access to it, just so that it can help you create other models and other stories. Not that you need to own, but you just need in your library, just having you, like I literally have this subconscious library of, okay, so this person's done that. this is random. I've got two kids, two different dads. There was so much shame about it. And so I started to think, I want to try and find people who have kids with different dads. How are they showing up in the world? Like I go and I pick stuff up not to compare, but to just take away that lonely feeling that it's just me. So I'd invite, I'd invite you to do that. I think I'd go back to you again. All those feelings that are coming up is the question on worth, meaning, do you still compare yourself? is your worth attached to what you're able to bring in? And then there's a bit of radical honesty that needn't happen here unless you wanted it to, is what is the other truth you have bought into as to why the course is not being as successful as you would like it to be? Because there's probably another underlying one. It almost just naming it is a release. It's probably linked to the worth, but it's probably... some words. And once again, I don't want to speak for you. So let me give myself, let me put myself in and see if it unlocks something in you. I have a fear that if I cannot make the kind of money I made in my consultancy through the work I'm doing with my work on, you know, transforming trauma. that people will see I'm a fraud, that it was just a fluke and that I'm definitely not worthy of someone they should follow or want to get any content or advice from because shit, if I can't do it, how the hell are they going to do it? so it's still all linked to worth, but I've just really given the words out and it just, it takes away, firstly, it feels good to be vulnerable. Even as I'm sharing this, I'm thinking, shit, I mean, is this a good idea? But I'm, I'm here to be as authentically me as possible. But sometimes we can't even be fully authentic because there's so much stuff in the subconscious. So I'd say just pick a little bit more because now that I've shared that, I realised the impact I have on people. And I'm not making millions yet.

• Speaker #0

  Key word, yet. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a million things for me wrapped up in it. One for sure is like, I do have a fear that without big names behind me, I can't do it for myself. You know, like I can't do it and nobody fully cares. There's that piece. I think there's a piece that is very much tied to money and is like, well, can I ever make money on my own without being tied to like a corporation? yeah and I think there is like just like a general worthiness thing too of like even though I know I mean if I look at my credentials in podcasting I'm like holy shit that's crazy yeah like especially because it built pretty fast you know I've done what I've done the primary work within like a six year span that's pretty amazing most of what I've done but I've been working in in media for like a decade but like the podcasting work that I've done has mostly been within the past six and a half years So that's amazing. But there is still a part of me that's like, thinks I have to really earn it. Like even when I'm in a podcast coaching session, I'm like, did I give enough? Did I do enough? Like, and I'm giving amazing information, you know, and I know I am, but there is also a split part of my consciousness that's always thinking I can and should be doing more for other people all the time that doesn't know when enough is enough.

• Speaker #1

  oh I mean I remember Oprah saying that for every guest she's had sit in front of her they've said was that okay was that okay yeah yeah so we're not alone but can I ask for when you look at your credentials and the things you've done with others why can't you do that for you well that's a big question my love

• Speaker #0

  I don't know why haven't I been able to do it so far but when did you start I've been trying my whole life you I mean, I have done it in some ways, you know, like I just won two Webby Awards the same year that one of the podcasts I produced it. So I have in some ways, but I don't know.

• Speaker #1

  so that's where my curiosity would be and look I think you kind of alluded to it it's that we might still have a belief that only if we have the big names which then leads me to then well it feels simple but I still want to question it as well just become a big name then that's the obvious thing for me but what comes up for you when I say that

• Speaker #0

  I would say anytime somebody says something like that there's two parts of me there's a part of me that knows that that at some point will happen and then there's a part of me that's like how the fuck is that ever going to happen I don't know how that's ever going to happen. Like I have on my wall, if I'm being completely honest, and this might feel a little cringe to some people, but I have on my wall, I am the new Oprah. Because there's a lot of different feelings around Oprah right now. I still think she's amazing and iconic. And when you look at what she did in the 90s and early 2000s, as a thought leader and talk show host, it is truly incredible. and I really believe as an interviewer and as a personality, I have the ability, let's say, to create that kind of career. I believe that I could do something like that, but there's a part of me that feels afraid. There's a part of me that feels very arrogant in even saying that, and that knows people are going to cringe, and that doesn't... I'm reacting to the potential reaction of other people of me saying that. And there's a part of me that doesn't actually believe it's possible. And then there's a part of me that believes it's like totally possible. So like, I don't know. is it okay for all these things to exist?

• Speaker #1

  But they must be because what is the alternative? This is where we are. And it can also be where we have so much joy and fun. So when I hear you say that, I just think so many possibilities, but the possibility I want to win is the one that believes, yeah, it can happen. And that becomes my daily, not grind, my daily opportunity of, Yemi, what do you want? I mean, I've just sat in bed this morning with my love saying that. Our love makes me feel like I can fly, but I need you not to be afraid that I'm flying without you. That's how radically honest I want to get because I want this and I want to do it while I'm able to. I have privilege because the world has been built for me as a full bodied woman. That's number one. I have privilege because things changed in the world where I was able to have education. I have privilege that if I needed to go get a regular job to bring in money or whatever, I can do that. Like I have so much. By all means, there are things that I don't have the privilege on. But shit, for the work I've got to do in the world, I'm having to focus on it. And I've already woken up this morning with a slightly different feel. I was almost contemplating bankruptcy, I want to say last year or two years ago. but you know, the work I had to do was not about me feeling like being a failure. It was learning to live with the idea that I failed.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, say more.

• Speaker #1

  This is where the curiosity and the rebelliousness comes from is that if you can pause long enough and be radically honest and just pick out the things that are coming up, it was, oh my gosh, what if people find out? But when I was in the Tony Robbins world, many, especially because we, you know. a lot more men have been able to take more risk and try things, is that they have failed. So if I clean my trauma and just decide not to throw every man as, well, he's a man and he's a man, and yes, there might be truth to it, but that doesn't mean they haven't gone through shit. What I'm now doing is leveraging the privileges and opportunities I have to say, well, how the fuck are we going to make this work? I'm almost not even interested in if I get there anymore. I mean, and I know people say it's the journey. I'm really interested in the journey and the process. And that, oh, that zhuzhiness of, oh, yeah, I remember when you used to make those millions and it was doing stuff that you liked, but it was killing you. Now, how can you make the same with the stuff you love? And sometimes it dips, but I really get into it. So that, going back to when you said say more, it wasn't about the failing. It was, how can I live with myself? because this has happened. And where I am right now is for me, the answer was equanimity. How can I experience joy and pain in equal measure, regardless of if I've got $200,000 in my account or 40?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. That's my, um, my biggest life lesson is. finding a way every day, because it's not just something I can do once. It's like the hardest thing for me is finding a way to really believe that who I am is the best thing about me instead of what I do or what I have or what I achieve. That's my practice every single day. And it's hard because I'm constantly doing things that require outward validation. Like, you know, the things that I'm trying to do in the world, you know, it does require an audience. It just does. but still remembering that the journey, like creating. is in and of itself value and why I do it. So regardless of how it's received, like if I was on an island and I didn't have to make money, I still would be making music. I still would be coming up with ideas. I probably would be talking to a coconut tree, like having a podcast, you know, I would be writing, I would be making up funny little songs and characters. I would still be doing all the creative things I want to do that in our society require audience. So remembering that that's actually who I am. And then the way it's received, like I don't have a lot of control over it. The thing I do have control over and what I want to make sure I'm not doing is that I'm not purposefully hiding, that I'm not doing a self-fulfilling prophecy and not putting myself out there enough. And yes, I do have questions of that. Even with this course, like, did I really do it as much as I could have? Probably not. But like I learned from that. And now next time I'm going to go even more passionately for it because it's I really do believe in this information and I want to share it. and like not beating myself up for that. I think that that has been like a great takeaway from the situation. Like Lauren, even six months ago, would have been kicking the shit out of myself for how this went instead of being like there's many different factors that played into this, and it's not just that I am bad.

• Speaker #1

  yeah if you really did go back and just looked at your blueprint what I call your resilience blueprint of things you've tried and it didn't at first and then now you are where you are that's the gold we're not tapping into our resilience blueprint and I don't know whether resilience is the world but you already have a blueprint that shows immeasurable success and what happens is we for some reason forget about it or depending on the level of imposter syndrome that we seem to have the archetype for we can just assume that, well, if I can do it, it can't be that hard. And so you don't even acknowledge it and move on. Because when I think of your credentials, it's there. So whatever you want to achieve is possible. It's just how, and I want to come back to the money thing that I've picked up that's helping me now in this economy is that. there is money. It's just that we are not currently in the circulation of it to receive. I'm still trying to figure out, well, what does that look like? And part of it is maybe physical. For some reason, it could be, am I speaking to the right industries? What are the industries that have the money? So that's one way I look at it. Secondly, I think vibrationally. yeah I mean I said this to my to my spiritual coach last year like I was like I really want to book the kids and my love I want to upgrade us to business class and she said yeah but are you upgraded spiritually and energetically that blew my mind I was like look at me out here trying to look for a business class and I'm not even carrying the energy I haven't even upgraded my energy is what was that one economy plot what once again nothing wrong with the different classes but I wanted business class but my energetic level was not there how do we think we're going to create peace from a not peaceful place?

• Speaker #0

  I agree. But how do you upgrade yourself energetically? Like how do you get into a business class of the soul?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Well, I love that. It's a feelings party. It's this idea that I either close my eyes. I do need my eyes to be closed because there's just too much distractions. And I truly pretend like I'm already there. I don't know what happens at a cellular level, but it's almost, and that's another thing that I'd want to play with virtual reality. I was watching a show yesterday, Chris Hemsworth, he was dealing, like trying to manage stress called Limitless, and he's going to go up this really tall building. I don't know how tall it is, but assuming it goes into the clouds, but first he goes into a simulation, virtual reality. And that feeling he has, whatever virtual reality has done, whatever technology has done, that makes you feel you are a hundred feet off the ground and therefore carry the fear. Can we do that for the good feelings? So when you say how, that's it, but it's still, I'm still trying to get there because of how many distractions there are. So what I, and I tell you, it came like, I knew I didn't want to spend 20,000 and on upgrade. I had a limit of $10,000. I was willing to get an upgrade. So every morning while I was away, I would get into the feeling and how I got into the feeling was I just imagined the email that came through from Qatar Airways, Miss Penn, we would like to offer you this upgrade. Like, you know, when you can just start to get into the field. When I tell you that email came through and it was $5,000 to upgrade us all. Exactly. when I'm in the sport and just speaking to this to you now, I'm just getting goosebumps of something is saying, well, Yemi, why are you doing that for the other shit you want? Like I literally just had a feelings party every evening.

• Speaker #0

  That's so right on because something my friend, Lauren, I always have to say, not myself, my, one of my close friends, Lauren Tannenbaum, she's an amazing singer songwriter. Her and I have been talking about why can't we use our powers for good? we're always manifesting silly little things and sometimes big things, but it feels so like haphazard. And I love what you're saying because what you're saying is we can, but I think it's actually really good to start out with something that is non-crucial, like a plane ticket, or you want the ice cream that you want to be on sale, whatever it is, something maybe small so that you prove to yourself that you can do it. and then you like have that skill set for something bigger. And then you also have the fortitude to know like, oh, this bigger thing might take longer, but I know exactly how I did it last time. So I'm just going to keep doing it until it is mine.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the other one is a rampage.

• Speaker #0

  Abraham Hicks.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Abraham Hicks. Like their rampages like really get me going. And I have a friend, Renee Zaya. She, I just sometimes call her and say, hey, can you do a rampage for me? And she just says. welcome Yemi Penn to the stage. Like she literally does, like get back into playful mode because something is happening, whether you're woo woo or whether you're scientific at an energetic level that says it must come, it must come, but it's got to like be genuine and the best way to do it. And I think that's where the fake it till you make it came from, but we just bastardized it and really lost connection to it. It's, I think it's very similar.

• Speaker #0

  first of all, also for anyone who doesn't know, a rampage, as I understand it, is like this thing where you're like, I'm feeling good. Things are great. I'm doing really good things out in the world. So it's just like one good thought after another, after another, after another. Google Abraham Hicks rampage, and you can listen to like a really great one of these. But anyway, one thing that my friend Jordan said when we were first playing music, when we moved to LA, he would say, Lauren, we're famous. Everybody else just doesn't know it yet. and I think that's such a great thing to think from the future to think from what you desire and to believe that it is here now because if what everybody's saying like you know the quantum physicists that time isn't linear then it might be here now so why not

• Speaker #1

  yeah oh I love that and I mean yeah I mean that could be a whole nother podcast that's what's coming up in my research is because I'm looking at it with a decolonial lens one of the ways in which I've been guided to do my documentary is in a non-linear way is like and that's partly how we've been drip fed so we've been drip fed you do this you do this you get this you get this you get this if you even just change your mindset on that life is not linear your expectations of the things you're doing I kind of really know in my being that on the premise you do not stop or halt your desires if they are yours, is that you putting out this course has something to do with something that's going to be unlocked. It's just because we're looking at it in a linear time. That's where the disappointment is. If you can open up to the idea that it might not come, it's very different. And so, you know, whether that course happens or it happens in the way you think, it's to carry the energy of still success. But you just kind of move on to, OK, well, what's next? And it will come. every time something exciting happens to me, I go back and I draw the different things that happened and it was not linear, but it's so juicy to know that every action led to this moment.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. And what you were saying, I was just thinking something, the idea that it has to be linear is actually what creates the suffering, the expectation that it should be this way. And why is it not this way? It should have been that way. That's what I deserved. That's how it was supposed to go. That's how I was told the story played out. that's what causes the suffering. It's not even the perceived failure. It's the story of what it was supposed to be that is causing the suffering. I don't know. I'm into IFS. Do you know IFS, internal family system? Yes,

• Speaker #1

  yes, yes.

• Speaker #0

  It's a type of therapy I've been doing. And basically it's the idea that we're all made of many parts. And so there is a part of me that knows what you just said is true. And that's like, I'm kind of excited that this is happening because I can't wait to see what it unlocks for the future.

• Speaker #1

  it's a hard one but yeah yeah because I just want to know now like why whoever it is or whatever like just get me involved now and that I think going to be at least um not a challenge it's going to be an opportunity for me to learn learn and grow because there is discomfort but I I also know and I just want to put this that let's all be weary or not weary be aware of you Even if your dreams don't appear to be coming in the way, get curious with all the things we've said so far, but be very careful not to go and dig up the seeds you've planted. That came really strong to me a couple of days ago.

• Speaker #0

  All right. Water those seeds, my little love bugs. And Yemi, you've said so many amazing things. Is there anything else on your heart that you want to share before we wrap up this conversation?

• Speaker #1

  No, that last one was it. Don't unplant that seed. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Keep watering your seeds, my creative cuties. Yemi I love you so much thank you for always bringing the fullness of who you are you are just a gift thank you Thank you for listening. And thanks to my guests, Yemi Penn. For more info on Yemi, follow her at Yemi.Penn. That's Y-E-M-I dot P-E-N-N. And visit her website, YemiPenn.com. You can also check out her podcast, Decolonizing Drama, wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks to Rachel Fulton for helping edit and associate produce this episode. Follow her at Rachel M. Fulton. Thanks to Liz Full for the show's theme music. Follow her at Liz Full. And again, thank you. If you like what you heard today, remember to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Share the show with a friend and post about it on social media. Tag me, at Lauren LaGrasso, and at Unleash Your Inner Creative, and I will repost to share my gratitude. Also tag the guests at yemi.pen so she can share as well. My wish for you this week is that you, like Yemi, embrace rebellious curiosity, nurture your dreams, and remain steadfast in your creative journey. No matter how winding the path may be, if it's in your heart, it's there for a reason. So follow that creative call. I love you and I believe in you. Talk with you next week.