Transcription

• Speaker #0

  Do you struggle with fear? Fear of what people will think? Fear of failure? Fear of starting? Fear in general? I know I do. I actually originally started this podcast because I wanted to try to help people not feel afraid at all. Like not feel afraid to pursue their dreams, to be their full selves. And as I've gone on throughout this podcast, I've realized maybe fear isn't something to be thrown away or completely avoided. Maybe that isn't even possible. But maybe instead, fear is a teacher and a companion that will ride with us and show us what we have to work on. But the one thing that fear will not do, and the one thing I stand by, is fear will not drive the car of your life, okay? It's all right if it's in the backseat or even riding shotgun, but fear cannot be the one making your decisions. Today's guest will share her journey on how she took fear out of the driver's seat of her life and started going after her deepest desires. and she will teach you to do the same. Welcome to Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LaGrasso. I'm Lauren LaGrasso. I'm a Webby Award-winning podcast host and producer, singer-songwriter, public speaker, and creative coach. This show sits at the intersection of creativity, mental health, self-development, and spirituality, and it is meant to give you tools to love, trust, and know yourself enough to claim your right to creativity and pursue whatever it is that's on your heart. Before we get into it, I do want to say that, as you know, I have a new song out, Genie in a Bottle. I am trying to get it to 10,000 listens on Spotify, and I can only do that with your help. So definitely go ahead and stream it, share with a friend who loves 90s and 2000s pop, and add it to your playlist and follow me on Spotify if you don't already. And thank you for your support in helping me achieve my dreams. Okay, to the guest. Her name is Robin Hopkins. She's a published writer, podcast host, and former stand-up comedian known for her career, financial, and personal advice, as well as her amazing humor. She's a cross between a mom and a therapist who offers wisdom with a comedic twist. She's the author of If These Ovaries Could Talk, which is a book inspired by the popular podcast she co-hosted, which earned a million downloads and featured guests like Rosie O'Donnell and more. She currently produces and hosts two podcasts, Dear Headspace, which is a meditation podcast that explores life's dilemmas and well-adjusting. a comedic self-help show. I'm actually going to be on that show soon, so definitely follow the show and stay tuned to the feed for my episode. Both of her podcasts have received significant recognition, with Dear Headspace earning an Ambie Award nomination. I wanted to have Robin on because her unique blend of humor, honesty, and insight into personal growth is exactly what we need to help us navigate fear, creativity, and life's big challenges. Robin has a way of making difficult topics approachable and even fun. And her journey from comedy to podcasting to writing offers a wealth of wisdom on how to live authentically. From today's chat, you'll learn how to navigate fear and self-doubt in the creative process, how to tune into your gut and hone your inner voice, how to break free from golden handcuffs, and how to find self-compassion and self-love through the messy and beautiful creative journey. Okay, now here she is, Robin Hopkins. Well, I think we can jump right in. Like, I'm just super curious to talk to you because I don't really know your creative journey. Like, I know you now do all these things and you're this unbelievable multi-hyphenate, but I'm so curious how you got there. Like, first of all, when you trace the lines back to your childhood, what would you say was your creative inciting incident?

• Speaker #1

  Ooh, I always, always, always wanted to do this. Like when I was like in maybe it was before my parents got divorced. So we're talking like, I don't know, third, fourth grade. And I remember I lived in upstate New York, and I remember asking my mom, and I was in tears, and asking her if she could take me to Syracuse because I thought that's where the commercials were made. I was really hell-bent on I was going to have some career in commercials because I'd see some daughter of a car salesman being like, the prices are so low. So I was like, obviously, we got to go to Syracuse and just drive around. I don't know. I just remember, as always, that's what I wanted to do is I wanted to be a performer. I wanted to... I always wanted to act, but I sort of like backed into that. I went stand-up comedy first because I was more afraid of acting, which is absolutely absurd.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, that is absurd. I always say stand-up comics and publicists have the hardest job in the business. So tell me why you chose that first.

• Speaker #1

  On some levels, it was just easier. Like my whole life, I was getting kicked out of classes, you know, for just like making jokes and crossing the line. So it was really just trying to find that line of like, I need to make you laugh. but like also how far can I push it, which is pretty much probably should be the name of my autobiography. Like Robin Hopkins, how far can she push it? it lives on a lot of levels. And for me, for acting was much more like, I was very worried about what people thought about me. And I was very in my head. And I always use the analogy of like, if you're dressing up for Halloween, and there's those people that go really all out, and then there's people who are just like, fuck off, I'm doing nothing. But if you just like throw a sheet over yourself with some eyes and try to do, oh, I'm a ghost, like that's the biggest fail is that halfway point. You either got to commit or not commit. And I was the halfway point in the beginning days of acting because I was so worried about what everybody thought about me. And it was much safer, even with all of the death on stage. And believe you me, I've got videotapes of me just dying, just absolutely dying. Like I died at the comic strip live once, just like could just hear plates and silverware and me telling horrible jokes. You know, it's like, so I died, but it just for some. reason that felt it felt safer than getting up and acting. I can't say why.

• Speaker #0

  That is so interesting. So you do act now. So how did you take fear out of the driver's seat on that and just say, I'm going for this? Like, what was the moment that broke where you said, I have to try this?

• Speaker #1

  I was like, coming along in my comedy career, like, I mean, career is really, you know, I'm being very. Give myself the benefit of the doubt there. But like I had performed at the Toyota Comedy Festival at this one bar and and there was like Disney execs in the audience and they brought me in along with a bunch of other people, you know, because it was the time of development deals where people like getting like 100 grand to just be like, let's see if we can get you the you're the next Seinfeld. And they brought me in and they were like, and they were two of them were talking to each other like, do we should we put her on tape right now? And I was just like, holy fuck. I was like, if they go to put me on tape, like I'm not I'm going to be awful. Like, it's just not going to be good. And so at that moment, I was like, and I kept thinking about the life of a comic. Everyone, you know, I had some friends who just like loved it. And I always felt very constrained by the format. And they'd be like, oh, yeah, no, no, I never want to leave the clubs. And it was like a dirty little secret. I was like, I just want to do this. So I'm not in the clubs anymore. I want to be like working as an actor. I think at that time, like stand up got me started as being a writer because you have to write your own material. But I was like, I just want to do that stuff. And The more I paid attention to that voice of like, you're doing this as a means to an end. And it's too hard. Like that life is really, it's like really difficult trying to be doing multiple clubs in one night. Like, and you got to be hustling. And so I, that moment I had this other friend and we were both like, I don't think I want to do it anymore. And she was like, I don't either. And I was like, oh my God, what are you going to do? And I was like, I'm going to go to William Esper. And she was like, I'm going to clown school in France. And I was like, cool.

• Speaker #0

  That's what my fiance did. The clown school thing. Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  So I was like, so we were both like, okay, let's just like not tell anybody yet. And then I eventually kind of left and did an acting conservatory. I did like a two year program.

• Speaker #0

  What was the benefit in kind of keeping that dream secret for a while? Just keeping it to you and this one other trusted creative ally. How did that help you cultivate it honestly?

• Speaker #1

  I just was very like, it felt like I would be quitting. Or it felt like I didn't get to where I was supposed to. Or it felt like maybe everybody was like, everybody was a soldier. And they were all like, how many sets have you done tonight? And it did not feel like an environment to be like, I'm thinking about doing other things. Like, it was just like, you're a stand-up comic. And this is what you do. And you live it and breathe it and eat it and drink. Like, that's what you do. And you talk about really dark shit. Yeah. And make it funny. And I was always kind of like, make a different format. I like expanded jokes. I was like, I like storytelling. And everyone was just kind of like looking at me. It was not the environment. I mean, it was just, you don't do that. And I think I was dealing with my own insecurities of like, who are you to be like, oh, what are you, Meryl Streep? There was like a lot of my own shit in there too.

• Speaker #0

  I'm just so curious too, because like you, do you call it coaching on well-adjusting?

• Speaker #1

  I don't. I call it just like we're picking apart problems with friends because it's like, I feel like you should be qualified and trained to do that. and I'm just like a daughter of trauma like who's like, let's get into your shit and I'll tell you about mine.

• Speaker #0

  That makes you quite adept at coaching or helping, I would say. So for if you listening don't know, Robin has this amazing show called Well Adjusting and it's amazing and she takes people, she brings them on and they come and tell her their problems, often like career or creative problems and you help them through them. So you have... a really good view on why people probably do certain things that they do, why they take certain roads that they take, especially when they take these like side roads instead of going on the main drag that they've always wanted to go on. And I'm just so curious because there's definitely somebody listening right now who's like, yeah, that sounds like me. I've done it a million times. And I think there can be a benefit to taking this long way around. But like, why do you think we do it? Like, why don't why do you think we just don't go for the thing?

• Speaker #1

  I mean, it's fear.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  It's like you hate to boil it down to that simple, but I could easily just as quickly before even finishing that sentence, I could talk myself into the whole idea that it takes as long as it takes and you're ready when you're ready. Like I'm at a unique place in my career now where every bumbling, ridiculous, dumb job I've ever had makes absolute sense for what I'm trying to do. Like I've had trainings like with day jobs and I've just sat next to very powerful people in the entertainment industry. And I've like now know how to run a channel and know how to do all this stuff. So it's like, there is that like hippy dippy side of me that's like, because you're not supposed to yet. But you're not supposed to yet because you haven't handled the fear. Like there is a fear. For me, it was a deep, deep seated insecurity. And you know, like I think I have a running tagline that's like, I'm not good enough. Yeah, I just kept coming up against that. And what's so unique and interesting about artists is that we choose fields where people get to tell us we're not good enough all the time. I'm just all the time practicing and playing at like not letting the no define my confidence. But man, is it a it's hard.

• Speaker #0

  So how did you do it where you got to the place where you felt like I deserve this? This is my dream. Well,

• Speaker #1

  now you're getting carried away with I deserve this. But.

• Speaker #0

  Well, you must have thought you deserved it enough, at least, to do that.

• Speaker #1

  I have to believe that somewhere inside of me was some, there's like some little Robin in there somewhere that's like, you deserve that. But she's quiet. But she's in there and maybe she's just like punching things and just being like, go left, go left. But I think that I couldn't do anything else. There was nothing else that I wanted to do that was going to make me happy. One of my day jobs was I was the assistant to this guy. And I just pretty much just rode his coattails up. Like we were in MTV and then I moved with him to VH1. And he was ultimately the president of the channel. We're great, great, great, great friends. You know, first person to hold my kid in the hospital. Like I always say, he's like my dad, my brother, and my son all rolled up into one. And like my best friend. He's like my longest relationship. You know, and sitting next to him, I watched him run every single department of an entertainment industry. And I'd be like, well, maybe I could do marketing. That's kind of creative. And maybe I could do this. And then I'd be like, I don't, but I don't want to. And I followed him to Spotify. And when he left, I was started producing podcasts for them. And I got to develop and work with Amy Schumer and produce her podcast. It was called Three Girls, One Keith. And I had just a fucking defining moment sitting on the toilet in her apartment. Like we're recording, we're set up in her gorgeous living room. And she's lovely. and nice and supportive. And her toilet seat is heated. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, this is lovely. And I was like, this is not enough. I was like, because I was on the other side of the table and I wanted to be on the table on the mic. That was the moment that helped gear me up to quitting and just going on my own. Because I was like, if I am sitting in Amy Schumer's apartment and she's lovely and being nice to me and we're creating something, you know, with a team of people, obviously I didn't do it by myself, but. And that isn't enough. I can't. Like there's something in me that there's just, I can't not. Even though it tortures me sometimes.

• Speaker #0

  That's good though. That means it's your inner voice that you're listening to. And it's even when you're trying to push it down, even when you've tried to silence it, she won't quit. She won't shut up. And thank God for her.

• Speaker #1

  Okay.

• Speaker #0

  How long ago was that?

• Speaker #1

  Right before COVID, I quit. That was my last, I'm knocking wood. That was my last day job. Wow. Because I was like, I'm going to make, I got some funding for the podcast that I was doing at that time. And I was like, I'm going to make a go of this and see what happens. And that was, I quit my like official last day was the top of January 2020. And then the whole world shut down like two months later. In a weird way, it actually was very good for me. Because one, I was on the dole. And then two.

• Speaker #0

  What does that mean? Dole?

• Speaker #1

  I was on the unemployment. It's like the Australian version.

• Speaker #0

  I was like thinking dole whip. Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  yeah. I was on the dole. And. It allowed me to, people started at that time, like, it's like, you remember, there was just this like creative breakthrough, like all of a sudden, nobody cared what it looked like. Everybody was like DJing from their bedroom. And I, you know, and I was able to like take some real creative risks and just be like, let's do a second show that's a live stream. Let's try this. Let's try that. And I thought that was a really like rich, creative time, you know, and it allowed me to even more so be like, oh, I can't go back to ordering turkey sandwiches for some exec. I can't. No. I loved him so much beyond our codependency. But like, I was like, I can't order turkey sandwiches anymore. I can't do that.

• Speaker #0

  If someone is about to reach that point or they're having their like heated toilet seat moment.

• Speaker #1

  It's now a thing. It's now a thing. It's a t-shirt.

• Speaker #0

  What is your advice to them on taking the leap?

• Speaker #1

  I am a big fan of take the leap, but do it in a way like I'd say I'm going to jump off a cliff, but I'm going to try to put a couple mattresses down below. I was fortunate enough to be part of the Spotify like we went public. So I had a little bit of money. And so I had a lot of conversations with my wife and I was like, I'd like to set this money aside and quit my job so that it is there. Because the freelance life is scary. And, you know, you could be out of a job in five seconds. So to this day, what I'm very proud of is that money is still in the bank. And it is still coded. It is still marked. Robin Spotify money, you know, which is weird to do in a marriage, you know, because it's like what's mine is yours and yours is mine. But it is coded. It is marked. And so if my freelance job currently drops out, I have a net. Now, you may not have a company that went public, but you can save toward it. You can be doing things like. making sure you have a list of contacts or places to go. Like, I just think there's a lot of things you can do to line up. Like, I'm a huge fan of what I call the Great Robin Plan, but now we've turned it into, on Well Adjusting, we turned it into the Great You Plan. And it started off with my goal for the year, a goal for five years. I broke it into buckets of what I wanted to do. But the very first time I did that, it was just like, okay, well, where do I see myself next year? And part of that was like making lists of people who might hire me. And anytime I get scared, because I come from like, you know, I was a poor kid. So I come from like, I'll take almost any job you offer me. I'll be like, well, OK, I could probably fit that in because I'm just like, I'm always afraid we're going to be poor again. I do things to calm that voice in me. And I make lists of people that I know will hire me. There's work and there's and or I'll go and I'll do the Robin plan and I'll update it. so that I can go, oh, yeah, I'm good at that. And I have this avenue and I have that avenue. Like, I have to, for me, step out of the fear and plan and write things down and have a backup. Should this not happen or that not happen? Like, I don't think it's wise to just, you know, Jerry Maguire, like, I got my fish and who is with me? Like, I don't know that that's the best way to jump out of like a secure situation. But I also know, and this is, I think, very me is that I'll argue with myself without even letting you talk. Because I also know that, like, I'll hear stories like, was it Felicity Huffman? Was another actress like that? Could have been Felicity. Who's the one who looks just like her, but she's actually a better actress?

• Speaker #0

  I don't know. But shout out to her.

• Speaker #1

  She sounds awesome. It's going to come to me and I'll yell it out in an inappropriate moment. Perfect. I mean, she was like sleeping in cars and she was like, didn't give herself a backup because she was like, I need to be hungry. And there's a real world where I had this great boss. and a job that paid me well that was a day job, and he allowed me to do things creatively, but maybe I wasn't hungry enough. So I think it's important to look at yourself and say, what traumas, what issues do I have? So how do I take care of those? How do I set up things financially? And then knowing yourself, are you a person who gets too comfortable and then you're just not going to do it and you turn around and five years went by? Well, then you got to light a fire and you have to like some deadlines and do some shit so that you force yourself. But I knew like I'm a hard worker and I would do it. So for me, it was all about like clearing my financial trauma and making sure I would have money because I had kids too at the time I'm doing this.

• Speaker #0

  How many kids do you have?

• Speaker #1

  700.

• Speaker #0

  Okay.

• Speaker #1

  It feels a lot like 700, but it's really just two who are now teenagers.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, but two, I mean, I feel like two is so much more than one. And I get that it's just one more, but all my friends who go from one to two are like,

• Speaker #1

  it is exponentially more. It's not one plus one. It's one times some infinite pi type number that you can't.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, like the third degree. Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  it's something, it's in another dimension.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, even my friends who have three kids are like, oh, but it was so much harder from one to two. So I really get that. And I'm always saying that to my fiance. He wants three. I'm like, first of all, I think that ship has sailed. But second of all, I'm like, if you can figure out how to carry it, go for it.

• Speaker #1

  It really does tear shit up, I'm not gonna lie. Everything's not the same.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. I personally don't believe in being outnumbered. I just don't think that that's a smart idea. Like I think that, you know, two is good because, you know, you can, it's even. Yeah. But three sounds like you're asking for a mutiny.

• Speaker #1

  The third one is just running around, like running into sharp corners. Like that is just what's going to happen.

• Speaker #0

  So that's something I'm always so curious about. And Robin, I'm going to tell you something really interesting. Okay. Every single woman I've had on this podcast who has kids has had her greatest success post-child. Oh,

• Speaker #1

  that's interesting.

• Speaker #0

  Every single person, not one of them had this amazing career and then it dropped dramatically after they had kids. And it's like marked way more success. That creates a new level of anxiety because you want to make sure that you're providing for them. But also I'm curious, how does it motivate you? And also there's such a difference between telling your kid they can do anything they want to do and then not pursuing it yourself and telling them they can do anything they want to do and then you going after it.

• Speaker #1

  I mean, that's the most important thing that you're saying. And it answers probably almost all those questions. Is like, I want my kids to see me fighting for something. I want them to see that like, you know, I've got to do two stupid commercial auditions this weekend. They're not stupid if my agent's listening. I can't wait to do it. I'm super happy. I just wish it wouldn't come on a Saturday. You know, but like they see how hard we work. And they see and like and I'm able to say things like to my son as he's like trying to get into some. like high school, like these guys take a test for. And I'm like, but I'm like, how many auditions do you see me do? And he's like, a lot. And he said, he only says it like that, because it means he has to be quiet on his games. I'm like, stop typing. It's coming up in my audition. So he's like a lot. And I said, and how many do I book? And he was like, not a lot. And I was like, well, say it kinder. But yes, you're right. Like, I was like, so I said, I was like, way to keep me humble. But that's the thing. I'm like, but I keep going. I keep trying. I'm like, that's what I'm looking for from you. I think that's the biggest part of it with kids is like, but there's also a part of it that's just like, it still goes back to I can't not. And so I still work it around my kids. I still like I missed I booked this like naked pickleball commercial.

• Speaker #0

  It was awesome. I watched it today. It was frightening,

• Speaker #1

  but thank you. And I missed my daughter's eighth grade graduation. And I was crying. And I was like, I'm so sorry. And she was like, Mama, she was like, you got to do that. I was like, I love you so much. And I was like, mommy's taking all the pictures. And I was like, I am there with you and I'm calling. And I was like, and there was a moment where I thought we were going to wrap early. And I was like, I'm going to try to get to you. And we didn't. But, you know, it's like they know that. They know that that's part of it. I'm very proud of that. I'm very proud that they see that. And that's part of our life. And I hope that that's something that translates to them in their life. Like whatever they want. Go break the mold. Be a scientist.

• Speaker #0

  I think that's so cool when that happens. There's two songwriters I know out here and their daughter is a psychologist. And I'm like, that must feel really good.

• Speaker #1

  We did it.

• Speaker #0

  Hell yeah. Go be a psychologist. That's one.

• Speaker #1

  Lawyer, be a doctor. You could.

• Speaker #0

  That's the way they rebel.

• Speaker #1

  But you do it. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  There was this other thing you said, Robin, that I thought was so interesting where you're talking about at Spotify or all the different situations you have. Basically, you had enough flexibility to do the other creative things you want. And I actually think. as wonderful as that is, and I really advise anybody who works in a like manages in a corporate position or any sort of position to allow their employees to go for the full extent of their dreams, because they'll just stay with you so much longer. Like, really, it's a longevity game. But the thing for the creative is, when you have that kind of flexibility, it can kind of trap you there.

• Speaker #1

  The golden handcuffs.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly. You're like, I'm not going to find anything better than this. I'm not going to find anything more flexible. As far as a day job, it's the best thing I could ever ask for. Yeah, I don't know. I guess I just want you to respond to that because that is something I found myself in that situation many times. It's hard to talk yourself out of leaving that.

• Speaker #1

  I was with my boss, Tom, for 19 years. And just so you know, like when it started, because I came in as a temp and I was like, I kind of dig it. Do you want to keep me? And he was like, I do want to keep you. And I was like, cool. And I said to myself, I'm like, I'm not going to sign up for this 401k thing. I was like, first of all, I need the cash. And second of all, like, I'm obviously gonna have a sitcom in like a year. And then cut to like three years later, I was like, I guess I better sign up for this 401k. But meanwhile, that 401k has me safe now. But 19 years. And the only way it broke was he left Spotify and he wasn't sure what he wanted to do. And he was like, and I was kind of like, I remember the call, I was standing out on the street and I was like, I'm fucking miserable here. And I said, are you really not doing anything for a while? And he goes, I, I don't think I am. And I was like, okay. And then I had to find my way. Like, it was like the universe who was like, you have to stop it. The schedule that I have now and like the way that I'm working and all this stuff and these things that I'm trying to spin up, I don't believe I'd be doing that if I was still in those golden handcuffs. And it was the greatest time I loved working for him. The shit I saw on the MTV music department in the heyday of MTV, like when music mattered there. It's like, I got to do really cool, amazing things and I don't regret it. But I do think like, oof, if maybe I had gotten there a little sooner, but I also to, I don't know who it was, it was my point or your point, it was somebody's point. But like, I don't know that I had the confidence to do the things I'm doing now.

• Speaker #0

  Right.

• Speaker #1

  It's like a very chicken or the egg sort of thing. Like, would I have gotten the confidence if I had been out there faster? Like, did I get the confidence because I was out there on my own? Or. Did I not have it because I was really safe and I wasn't having to push myself? That's the one thing that I think if I parsed out everything that I did and if I was talking to someone who was younger, I would say, really question if you're too safe. Are you playing this too safe? Can you play this bigger? Can you take more risks? And you can be calculated in your risks. I'm not talking about going out and putting your life savings on 33 red. But I feel like, can you push yourself? Be a little more, it's not Felicity Huffman. But anyway, it's like. could you be a little more, you know, her or Jewel living in their car because they're trying to make it? Yeah. I don't recommend living in your car, but like in this business, I think this is a really big point. You are the only one who's checking in to see how you're doing.

• Speaker #0

  You don't have a boss who's giving you a yearly review. You're out there just going with your instincts, is this the right next move for me? Is this the right thing? So I think with that should come a habit of check-ins. That's why I created the Great You Plan. It's like, because I go at the end of the year and I look and I go, well, what did I hit with the things I said? And some of those weren't relevant anymore. Well, what am I thinking now? And it's like, it's my own way of bringing corporate America and managing Robin.

• Speaker #1

  You have to manage yourself.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Okay,

• Speaker #1

  so tell me this then. What are some of your other tips for people who are freelancers or aspiring freelancers, side hustlers, on how to manage themselves?

• Speaker #0

  I'm telling you, like my time in corporate America, like I bring corporate America into my bedroom, which is where I'm currently sitting and working.

• Speaker #1

  Nothing sexier, baby. That's right.

• Speaker #0

  All the things happen in my bedroom. And I do mean work. I have a start to my day. I have an end to my day. I... try to do my work Monday to Friday. I get up and I take a walk around, like I do this two and a half mile walk most mornings or, you know, something in the morning. Currently it's physical therapy for my old ass and my old knees. But it's like I get up and I do something to start the day. I take a break for my lunch and I go sit in the living room, maybe like watch a little TV. You know, I try to bring structure into an unstructured world. Like I was admin for many, many years. So I'm very big on. buckets of things of like this work has to be done and this work has to be done. I have learned when I work best on certain things, I'm never, ever, ever going to write something creative at 5 p.m. I'm done at that point. I've been working for eight hours. Like my creative brain is not happening, but I am really good in the morning. So if I have like writing times that have to happen, that happens in the morning and I try to bold it on my to-do list. So that means that's the first thing I'm going to do before I... you know, step into like the bureaucracy of the job. Because it doesn't matter. It's like, everyone thinks like hosting a podcast and being a producer is all like, so sexy. This fun part right here, what we're doing is about what, would you say 5% of the job?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, top.

• Speaker #0

  Eight on a good day.

• Speaker #1

  Sadly. It's like,

• Speaker #0

  then there's the emails and the invoicing and the like listening to cuts. And it's all, a lot of it is work. And so like, just, I like to structure my day when I know I'm best creatively and look for breaks. That's what works for me. What works for you? I'm curious.

• Speaker #1

  I try to make specific sections every single day for my creativity. And then also for the email part is really hard. I have not figured out emails yet. That is just a dark place for me is my inbox.

• Speaker #0

  It's very dark. It can get away from you real fast.

• Speaker #1

  It really can. But I think the thing I've found that does not work for me is like checking in several times a day, like, you know, keep popping in. Like, that's what exhausts me. So if I can do it in a... block, that seems to work. Yeah. The thing I'm trying right now, I also do a lot of trial and error. Like one day I feel like doing the checking in on my email every hour. But what has been working for me lately is having clear times for creativity and clear times for admin. Yes. I'm really trying to separate those, but also like make sure that I'm making time for how am I going to grow this thing? Who do I want to partner with? Okay. I need to think about what the editorial calendar is going to look like for the next two months. But not trying to do everything at once has been my big takeaway lately.

• Speaker #0

  You know, what's also interesting is like, I feel like sometimes like I'm a really tough den mother. Like I had this one friend who was just like, I want to be a creative. And she was all the time talking about it. And I was, I would just be like, so do it. And then she'd be like, I don't have time. And I was just like, I remember like sitting in my living room and I was like fuming. I had two very young kids running around. I was working a full-time job. And I was... doing like my podcast, a different podcast at night and on the side and on the weekends. I was trying to, you know, I was doing like all these other things. I wrote a book. Now listen, nobody asked me to write this book. Nobody's paid me to write this book yet. It's in my Dropbox folder, but I have a memoir that I wrote, an 80,000 word book. And I did it while I was six months pregnant. And I did it by coming into work a half hour early every day. And some days maybe only did 15 minutes, but My goal was to do a half hour in the morning before my workday started. And I wrote a book that way. So it's like, you'll never be able to tell me I don't have enough time or I don't have the money. Like, those are bullshit excuses. And that's like the harshest thing I'll say. It means you're afraid in some way. Time management is critical.

• Speaker #1

  I definitely think you can be. burnt out. And like, that's another issue. So what you might need to do in that instance is like make time for rest, because that's something I've also really realized is rest is a vital part of the creative process. So I also used to just, I still do sometimes, but I used to just work all day long, like every single day, day in tonight, especially as I start to think about wanting to have kids, like I just realized I can't keep doing that. It's not a good long-term plan.

• Speaker #0

  No.

• Speaker #1

  So one thing I've really been integrating since I met my fiance is like rest. and play. Your personal life is still your life.

• Speaker #0

  It also fuels your art.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  It's critical. Like without it, what are you trying to say?

• Speaker #1

  You have nothing to say. You're a machine, basically. An art machine.

• Speaker #0

  I make the art.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. But no, all that's so good. And you know, something else I'm wondering is, I heard you on a recent, not super recent, it was like July, but a well-adjusting episode, you were talking with producer Steph and you were calling yourself out. It was an awesome episode. I loved it. It was so beautiful and so vulnerable. But you talked about how you left a creative long-term partnership behind. And you're also sharing, I don't know if it was the same thing, but talking about no longer working with this boss slash friend of yours. And I think knowing when to leave, we've been talking about it a lot, but knowing when to leave is one of the most critical things. And it is so, so difficult when you have poured yourself into something and also when that thing is super attached to your story.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  So could you just share a little bit of insight on that? Like, how did you know in the instance you were talking about or whatever instance you want to talk about? How did you know when it was time to leave? And what's your advice for somebody else contemplating leaving something or someone?

• Speaker #0

  The biggest lesson for me around like when to leave was you had this like business partnership and it was bad. It was bad. We didn't get along and it wasn't great. And I just kept saying things to my wife like. But it's the most successful thing I've ever done. And it's like, what if it takes off? And who's going to have me? And it was all fear. It was all fear. But what was really interesting is I had a habit of that behavior of staying too long in relationships. But I really thought I had healed that when I met my wife. I thought I had done enough healing for her to show up. And then I'm still all kinds of fucked up. But I got her here. So we're good there. Just don't leave, baby, if you're listening. But it didn't occur to me until after I was like, oh my God, I did it again. But I was like, I did it in a business partnership. So I think that was like a real awareness that who you are personally shows up in your art, shows up in your personal stuff. And I think that's something like if you have a habit of dating bad people, or if you have a habit of being treated like you're less than, or if you have a habit of allowing other people to do X, Y, and Z, those things are going to show up in your business partnerships too, and probably the way you approach your art. So that for me was a very, very big learning. And afterward, I remember like all the fear was just like bubbling up. It was probably the name of this episode, all the fear was like bubbling up and bubbling up. And then I could tell you where I was sitting when I had this thing and I was picturing these two islands and these like strings, these strings that were coming down. And the strings were like all the skills that I have and the things that I can do. And it just hit me like a light bulb. I was like, oh. well, if I walk over to this other island, all the same strings are there. I'm still the same person. And if I did it over there, I can do it over here. And I was like, why didn't I think of that before? Why did I? And then I just had to make a decision to not be mean to myself about it. Like, as soon as I saw it, and as soon as I was strong enough to make the change, I did. And so I think, again, that's why it's like I'm all like corporate reviews for myself. or morning pages, like the artist way, like writing, and just looking for those patterns. Because it's you, it's going to be harder to identify what it is because you're triggered, or you're in it. You're in the midst of it. Listen when other people tell you shit. My wife told me for a very long time, just like this, what are you doing? I was just like, I don't know. It was like she freed me up. She was like, why are you doing this to yourself? And I was like, oh, no. And then cue the tears and cue the crying and then cue the processing of like how I let myself stay so long and how I let myself like be treated in such a way. But then it's like I look at partnerships completely different now. And I also looked at, am I surrounding myself with people because I'm afraid to be out here alone? It was a really rich period, hard, painful, but a rich period of time of going. In media, like after a show, like a VH1M TV, we would do the postmortem about how the show went, how the event went. And it was like I did a postmortem on myself. What was I doing? Why did I do it? And it was just, it was so clear as day that I was afraid that no one would want me and that I wouldn't have that level of success again. You know, the thing that I'm thinking so much about now is, one, I don't want to live that way. And two, like, I recently finished that book, 4,000 Weeks. It's like a. time management for mortals, but it's really about, it's based on this idea that the average lifespan is 4,000 weeks. And what do you do with it? It's not about like, oh, here's five ways to manage your calendar. It's not at all that. It's about your relationship to time. And I realize I'm always running. like, I'll be happy when I get there. I'll be happy when I get there. And this book was a really hard stop for me of like, you only have 4,000 weeks. So you got to be happy right now. And I'd be lying if I said I am, and I have that. But it is very on the forefront for me right now of like, trying to, I don't want to be in a business partnership that's not happy. I don't want to be doing work that I don't want to do. I want to, especially now, because we're just post election. I want to bring joy into the world for me and for other people.

• Speaker #1

  Okay, Robin, first of all, that was so beautiful. Thank you for sharing it. And I want you to know I really relate to you. That has been a trend for me. For me personally, it's like part of codependency. It's something I've struggled a lot with. I'm still working through and life keeps giving me just beautiful little opportunities to keep honing the skill. And interestingly enough, like I recently had to set a really strong boundary with someone I've worked with for like four years. on an independent project that was scary as shit. And I was like, you know what? This is not worth it if I'm not being treated right. And if there's something going on that I don't agree with, I have to stand up for myself. So I just want to say like kudos for you. That's huge. And that is such a big life moment. And I want you to know you're not alone. And I think a lot of people listening relate.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you. But I think we've all taken shit in hopes of a thing. And like, what if we just got the right now?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  what's the thing you want to make right now? What's the thing you want to do right now? When we had, I think our first kid, my wife and I went to a couples therapist because, you know, like everything was falling apart. You're just like, we like go through this.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, no. I believe in couples therapy like all the time. I think you should do it before things fall apart even. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  And I had like, I went in with this whole theory and I said this whole theory about was like purple dots and red dots. And she was just nodding a lot. And then she said, I think you're tired. And I was like, we're just tired. But anyway, she, my wife. is one of those people that's always, she doesn't have tons of opinions, whereas I have an opinion about absolutely everything. Even if you didn't ask me, I'm still like, well, I don't care about that. And she feels like beholden to other people. And so our couples lady said to her, well, okay, if you took Robin out, put her in a corner, if you took your sister and you put her in a corner, well, what would you want? And she was like, oh, that's easy. I'd want pizza. You know, it was like, it was just like, but she's all the time trying to like navigate what everybody like secretly, what everybody might want. And I think sometimes like in these partnerships, that's kind of what we're doing is navigating like maybe this will bring something to me and maybe that'll bring something to me. But like when I go for something that's real and genuine, I think on some levels that'd be a better experience than something that maybe is more successful. Yeah. But it's hard to say that because this business is like you are on the leash and there is a carrot being dangled and you are just always running after it. as my therapist said, speak in I statements, Robin, I am always running after it. And I want to do that less. I want to be in the space of like, because like in the space of like, what do I want to create? Because how much more excellent would the work be? How much more connected would I be? And maybe just maybe the success would be huge because of that. Or maybe the success would be that that happened.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, that has been my biggest, and I think we talked about this when you and I first met, but like my biggest learning in the last three years has been who you are is the best thing about you. The hardest lesson I have to unlearn it every day is that I am what I do. And I every day I'm working on unwinding that messaging, but it's really, really difficult when you are in a business that you only are successful if people are consuming it and consuming it at high levels.

• Speaker #0

  And you're packaged. you're marketed, you're spit out like a thing, not a living, breathing thing that has, just because you did this one, like maybe you did a red painting, doesn't mean every painting you make should be red. They want to make you modular, and that's not who we are as artists.

• Speaker #1

  So how do you work on taking your self-worth out of the outcome of your work?

• Speaker #0

  Well, I'll just start by saying I'm not successful with that, I don't think. At this point, it's not my self-worth. I think when I was younger, it was, it was like, I'll... be someone when I am. Part of getting older, part of having kids, part of just like stepping into my own confidence. I'm like, I'm really fucking proud of the work that I'm doing. Like in weird little moments, and this is going to sound way more amazing than it really ever was. But I had like two experiences this year where somebody recognized me from the Headspace podcast. Like literally I was huge. Sitting in this like amazing like nacho place, like having a fucking giant margarita by myself and just jamming cheesy nachos in my face. And this guy just kept looking at me and I just thought, oh, God, I haven't showered. I'm so embarrassed. And then he came over and he was just like, are you from Headspace? He was like, I was just like listening to you. And I was just like and I had someone walk by me, go Headspace. And it was like from a podcast. No, nonetheless. But it's like. When those moments have happened, it didn't feel the way I thought it would. It wasn't validating. I was actually quite embarrassed. I mean, it was like, oh, like once it happened in front of my son, like someone who listened to a different podcast, like and that one was really fucking cool because he was so mad at me in that moment. And I was just like, see, I am somebody. I was like, I'm not always the naggy bitch. I actually am, though. The reason I said all that was to say that's no longer and hasn't been for a long, long time, the thing. What I find, the thing that I'm chasing is when someone says I wrote something or I did something and they connect it and then they tell me some of their story. That's always like, oh, I did something that opened something up for them. And that makes me feel that's the stuff I want to do. is I want to make someone laugh and then cry. So I'm not dealing with it in that way, but I am dealing with it in the way that I feel like I will be successful when. I'll calm down when. I will feel comfortable when. What I'm struggling with right now and trying to put in place is that there is no when. I will 100% face such bullshit, but as soon as I get to that when, I will move to the next thing. Like, well, I told you we got funding on that one podcast I was doing like back in the day. And I, this is definitely TMI, but I was like in the bathroom with my phone like one does when I got the email saying we got this money. And this is a New York City apartment. This is not a mansion. But until I walked from the bathroom to the kitchen, I was already like, well, and now I got to do this and now I got to do that. And my wife was like, do you think you could maybe celebrate this like for about a second? And I was like, oh, right, right. This is a big thing. This is a big thing. So it's like, that's the thing I'm struggling with is celebrating the wins. And I think this is where we started talking even before we hit record is like, it's all happening now. And just finding the joy in that it's happening. That is going to be, I have a feeling, a lifelong struggle for me. And maybe that's part of that inconsistency or that uncomfortableness that propels me forward. And maybe I should be thankful for it. But I would like. the next goal for myself. And even this, I'm putting in goal terms, if you just heard what I did. But to settle in. Right now, I'm on your amazing podcast, talking to you, like with equipment in my room, working from home, working for myself. Like a year, two years ago, I would have been like, oh, shit, you did it. I'm already like, what's next? So it's like, I want to quiet the what's next voice. And I don't. necessarily have an answer other than to continue to talk about it and to call myself out when I do it.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, I think that's enough. And also I heard somebody say something once, like there's nothing wrong with having dreams and goals. It's just what takes you on the journey, but whether or not you ever get there, like that's not where your worth lies. Like your worth lies in just in the fact that you're pursuing it and that you're here. The fact that you're here is a literal miracle. It's like a one in 40 billion chance that we're even born. I'm pretty sure that's the actual statistic.

• Speaker #0

  That's crazy. And I'll tell you what, having gone through pregnancy twice, I was like, what, you put the thing in there and then you have a baby. And it's like, no. And by the way, for me, I don't mean a penis. I meant like the sperm. Just to be clear, Gavin and I have a wife.

• Speaker #1

  I want to actually, I want to learn that about the squirty bottle.

• Speaker #0

  Put that in there. IUI. And then it was like, and then I had a miscarriage and then like things happened and it was just like, oh, it's literally a fucking miracle when you have a kid. It's not. It is. The way they make it seem in high school is like, you better close your legs or you're going to accidentally fall and get pregnant.

• Speaker #1

  I was afraid if I dry humped, I was going to have a baby. Like this is I was a Catholic girl. My greatest fear. I was like, I better not dry hump too hard or else I might bear a child. Oh, they got me, Robin. They got me so good. I was terrified.

• Speaker #0

  God forbid a woman should have some pleasure like that. You just got to do that because they didn't say that to men. Probably.

• Speaker #1

  No.

• Speaker #0

  They were just like, leave her be.

• Speaker #1

  I'm told that it was possible through dry humping. Yeah, it was a lot. Anyway, if I'd known how hard it would have been, I would not have been so anxious all those years.

• Speaker #0

  I thought you were going to say I would have been way sluttier. I was like, good.

• Speaker #1

  I would have been way sluttier. No. Unfortunately, that lifestyle didn't work for me. I tried. I was an aspiring slut for a minute, but it just didn't work for me.

• Speaker #0

  I didn't have it in me either.

• Speaker #1

  I'm safety sexual is what I've realized about myself. I can't have fun unless I feel safe.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. I have to like a person.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Yeah. And feel emotionally connected to them. That's just me. I know some people can do it. And I think that's amazing.

• Speaker #0

  I wish I could. Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  I love that for them. Just wasn't life. Wasn't my journey.

• Speaker #0

  Way sluttier.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, for sure. We should both get that. We're putting in our karma order right now.

• Speaker #0

  Can you imagine? This one would be sluttier. Interesting.

• Speaker #1

  I just love you so much. I know we're wrapping up our time here. I mean, we could talk for literally ever. I'm curious because we've kind of like talked around spirituality at all. Like, what is your spiritual practice? Are you spiritual? How do you see that in your life?

• Speaker #0

  I didn't grow up with church. Like, I love to say that there was like a point where I came home to my mom and I said, I want to go to church. And she said, all right. And then she sent me with the neighbors. It's just like she was not.

• Speaker #1

  We'll get you there. She's like,

• Speaker #0

  all right, then. With a cigarette. And then she just sent me with the Marinuses. Shout out to the Marinuses. So I believe very strongly that in the universe, and I believe very strongly in that your gut instinct is a connection to the universe. And that it will never steer you wrong if you listen to your gut and you follow it. It's one of the reasons I love what you're doing. Because I just think it's so critical and it's so important. And anytime I. don't listen, it's always bad. I mean, it's always just like, oh, that was dumb.

• Speaker #1

  What's a quick way you can tune back in with your gut when you've kind of shut that connection off?

• Speaker #0

  I'm really big on like walking in nature, but quiet or music, like dancing around alone, like at, you know, like when no one's around. Sometimes it can be as simple as like, and I got this from Headspace from my time at Headspace, just putting my hand on my heart and just like listening to like... I have such a strong image of 12-year-old Robin, and she's the one who's a little broken. So she's got that bleach blonde hair, that bowl cut that my mom gave that's just not cute, and she looks a lot like a boy. And I'm wearing like Levi's, and she's the scared one that's in there. And just sometimes just putting my hand on my heart and just sitting and like talking to my, you know, to my, and it sounds like really hokey, like when I say it out loud, but in the moment, it feels like super cool and amazing. I know that anytime I listen, like my voice is there. Everything moves so fast in my head and coming out of my mouth. I think anyone who's listened to five seconds of this podcast gets that. I have to do things to quiet it and to connect back to something. Since I'm really out here on the hokey, both my parents have died. And in the last year or two, I've had these moments like walking. It happened not too long ago. I was walking and I was upset about something and it got kind of quiet. And I just had this image just pop up. of both my parents standing behind me, like with their hand on my shoulder. And I swear to Christ, I could just feel them just being like, we're with you. Go, go, go. And so if that's not true, does it matter? If it moves me forward and it makes me feel connected, and if it gives me some strength, that's the universe. That's some kind of an energy that's coming from somewhere. And even if I created it, that's the universe.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. That's so powerful. I mean, I really believe they're there. When you said that I had the very clear image and then I got chills.

• Speaker #0

  I just know they're out there opening doors and windows for me. I know it.

• Speaker #1

  They are.

• Speaker #0

  They kind of owe it to me. They were a little shitty in the here and now. So I feel like it's, you know.

• Speaker #1

  You can keep building your relationship with them now that they're gone. And it sounds like you are. I actually heard somebody say her mom had passed away and she's like, something really important to me is working on my relationship with my mom. And I thought, wow, wow. You just fix death. Now we can all continue to work on our relationships with people we had fraught relationships with when they were here.

• Speaker #0

  Well, and here's a little secret about that. It's significantly easier because they can't keep fucking up. Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  they're done with that.

• Speaker #0

  The bird has stopped. So it's just up to you to decide what you're going to keep and what you're going to let go. And now I'm at a place, they've both been gone long enough that I'm at a place where I can just love them for the things that they do. did that were okay. I still recognize the shit that I was handed that I've got to continue to work through, but I don't have to like sit around and be like, fucking mom. Like I can just be like, well, that's now a really good story.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. The love is what remains and you can see them as whole people, it sounds like.

• Speaker #0

  And they were on their own journey.

• Speaker #1

  I know. I'll never forget when I realized my mom was a person. It was wild. I was walking down the street. I was 27. It was like one of the darkest times of my life. I was standing outside of the Hawaiian barbecue restaurant and I went, oh my God, my mom's a person. And I literally called her and told her, I'm like, mom, I just realized you're a person. Like you have a life and feelings and fears outside of me. And I, my whole life up until 27 have just been looking at you like you're my mom and you're a whole human being. And I'm so sorry. That must have been and must be so hard.

• Speaker #0

  What'd she say?

• Speaker #1

  She was like, yeah,

• Speaker #0

  thank you.

• Speaker #1

  And her sweet little Michigan accent. But it was just such a revelation that she like, it was because I was going through the hardest time. I'm like, wow, she went through probably some of the hardest times of her life and still had to be my mom.

• Speaker #0

  But you know what, though? What a gift you gave her. What a gift you gave her. Like, if there's ever a day where I'm going to have to get quiet, my kids are out there. But if there's ever a day they call me and say that, I swear to Christ, I'll be sobbing. Because it'll just, to me, that means, that would mean I did good. Like, that they can see me as a whole and complete person and that, you know, I tried my best. Because there's going to be shit they're going to have to handle that I did. Because it's like, I'm just doing the best I can. And sometimes it's not enough. Sometimes I fail. So I try to clean it up. I mean, it's like, I'm taking the same approach, whether it's with my kids or the arts or my life. It's just like I do the very best I can. If I fail, I try to clean it up. I do my own postmortems. And then I try to plan forward. Like, I don't know what else we can do.

• Speaker #1

  I don't think there is anything else because nobody's going to play a perfect game. And I actually heard the statistic from a really smart psychologist. I know that 70% of time parents miss their children, like 70% of the time. But as long as you engage... in the repair, you'll have even more closeness than you would have had had you never screwed up. It's the failing to repair that hurts any relationship.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, that's what leaves you with the shit. But you know what, though? That's where we get our art.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  That's a lot comes from that.

• Speaker #1

  So thank you to everyone who didn't repair with me because here we are. Okay, Robin, I have one last question. Because you mentioned your sweet younger self, I just want to ask you, If you and that sweet 12-year-old Robin were standing in the same room and she was looking at you, you're looking at her, what do you think she would say to you today and why?

• Speaker #0

  I don't know. I feel like she would say, is it all going to be all right? Because that's where she was, is that there was questions of if it would be all all right. Because it's like the 12-year-old Robin isn't healed. She's the person that's along the ride with me. And she's the person that shows up and can be scared and is afraid it's not going to be enough. And. is afraid. And she's the one that I have to go. If you ever sleep trained a kid, you're supposed to keep the lights low and you're supposed to never act like you're quiet. You're supposed to be like, okay, it's not time to get up now. I'm going to walk you back to bed. And I oftentimes, when she shows up, I go, okay, you're safe. It's not time. We're going to put you back to bed because it's not time right now. I want her. She's a companion. She's with me, but I don't necessarily want her in the driver's seat. I just want her to know she's going to be okay.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Well, what I usually ask next is what would you say to her? So you'd tell her it's going to be okay and you got her.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Like we're doing okay. Between the two of us, we both have to remember we're doing okay. Because both of us forget. You know, it's like, yeah, you're just sometimes we're back, back in things that aren't what's happening today. Like I am not without money. I am not unsafe. Like I am loved. I am successful. But sometimes I still feel like that 12 year old who was not any of those things. We're like a little partnership that we can't break up. And I've got to love her. And she's got to love me. And we have to just know whose turn it is to talk.

• Speaker #1

  That's very true. I think you're both doing a great job. I admire you so much, Robin.

• Speaker #0

  I'm looking right back at you. I mean, like, I have absolutely loved every single moment that we've talked.

• Speaker #1

  Me too. I just think you're the most amazing person. I love what you do on your show. I love how you empower other creatives, how honest you are. I really admire your mothering. Like.

• Speaker #0

  You are definitely officially an idol of mine. And I just, I love you. And thank you for being such a beautiful, brilliant voice and just artists out in the world.

• Speaker #1

  Right back at you. And you're holding such a lovely space for so many people. And thank you for having me. And I can't wait until you're coming back over onto Well Adjusting. So yay.

• Speaker #0

  I remember when I first, when we first met, I was like, so you want to know what I need to work on in my life, right? I'm like, I've made a list. So definitely check out that episode we're going to do together on well adjusting. It's going to be great. We'll talk about all our problems.

• Speaker #1

  The whole edit audio team after they heard our like gab session for the one that you already were on. They were all like, she is amazing. I was like, right. I told you.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, my gosh. They did such a good job with that episode, by the way. I love the pod. All right, my love. Well, thank you so much for being here. Thank you.

• Speaker #1

  Thank you.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you for listening and thanks to my guest, Robin Hopkins. For more info on Robin, follow her at RealRobHops and visit her website, RobinHopkins.org. Unleash Your Inner Creative is hosted and executive produced by me, Lauren LaGrasso. Produced by Rachel Fulton with theme music by Liz Full. Thank you again, my sweet creative cutie for listening. If you like what you heard today, remember to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Share the show with a friend and post about it on social media. Tag me at Lauren LaGrasso and at Unleash Your Inner Creative, and I will repost to share my gratitude. Also tag the guests at RealRobHops so she can share as well. My wish for you this week is you take one small step toward embracing your true self and your creative dreams. Whether it's laughing at the fear that holds you back, using your unique story to fuel your work, or simply giving yourself permission to be imperfect. Trust that every little step counts. I love you, and I believe in you. I'll talk with you next week.