Is sounding "enterprise" killing your marketing message? In this episode, conversion copywriter Jessica Malnik joins the crew to expose why the most effective copy isn't about being clever—it's about stealing your customers' exact words. We dive into customer research plays you can use now, why corporate speak is a conversion killer, and how LinkedIn "lunatics" sacrifice credibility for clicks. Tune in for practical tips on creating content that actually converts instead of just sounding smart. What you get when you listen Why product marketers are the "Swiss army knife" of marketing (and why that's a good thing) The surprisingly simple research hack top copywriters use to write enterprise copy that doesn't sound robotic The hidden Reddit goldmine most marketers completely overlook How AI can help you analyze 1,000+ customer comments in minutes (including the exact prompts to use) Why Jessica refuses to work with pre-revenue startups (and what this means for your messaging) The embarrassing LinkedIn trend that's landing marketers on the "LinkedIn Lunatic" subreddit Why "What's in it for them?" trumps creativity every single time The counterintuitive reason why Jessica actually prefers clients with no messaging brief The three types of LinkedIn posts that drive real business (not just vanity metrics) Show Notes 00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction 01:47 Jessica Malnick on Product Marketing 03:36 Navigating Copywriting Challenges 08:34 Human Touch in Copywriting 10:08 Using Reddit for Audience Research 11:27 Tools and Techniques for Copywriting 18:34 LinkedIn Strategies for PMMs 23:05 Final Thoughts and Resources 26:16 Conclusion and Sign-Off Why being human in your copy matters more in the age of AI than ever before Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

If you're tired of building landing pages that follow "best practices" but still fail to convert qualified leads, this episode will change everything. Whether you're a product marketer afraid of paid ads or a demand gen specialist struggling to get PMM buy-in, this episode will help you create pages that actually respect your buyers' intelligence while driving real business results.  This week, we've joined by Tas Bober, growth marketing advisor and Scroll Lab founder. She reveals why the traditional approach to landing pages and sales collateral is fundamentally broken. We're covering: Why most B2B landing pages look identical (and why everyone hates them) How hiding pricing backfires when buyers find wildly different answers on Reddit The simple reason most CTAs fail (and it has nothing to do with the button text) How B2B companies waste countless hours debating stock photos instead of fixing real problems The contrarian approach: Why a good landing page should DECREASE your conversion rate "No one buys pants on the first visit" - Why optimizing for direct conversions is misguided How to build a freelance business: "Back up your backup" and why your career hinges on your network In this episode, Tas explains to the misfits her "champion's business case" framework that replaces manipulative marketing tactics with transparent, value-focused content. She delivers practical wisdom for creating landing pages that treat buyers like adults. Listen for actionable insights on disqualifying bad-fit leads, writing effective CTAs, and building a foundation for freelance success beyond the corporate grind. Timestamps: 02:43 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 03:38 "Product Marketers Are CEOs, Baby" - Why PMMs Run the Show 07:00 The Biggest Red Flags on Landing Pages 09:00 The Champion's Business Case Framework for Landing Pages 12:25 What a Complete Business Case Contains 14:25 Why PMMs Don't Like Paid Ads (But Should) 17:00 Why PMMs Should Be Involved in Campaign Landing Pages 22:00 How to Create Effective CTAs That Actually Convert 27:00 Why Hiding Pricing Information Backfires 31:12 The Truth About B2B Buying Behavior (It's Not What You Think) 37:15 Why Good Landing Pages Decrease Conversion Rates 45:00 How B2B Sales Collateral Overwhelms Buyers 48:03 The MVP Approach to Landing Pages for Resource-Strapped PMMs 54:15 The Problem with Obsessing Over Stock Photography 57:22 How to Build a Successful Solo Consulting Business 01:01:12 Building Your Network as Your Net Worth Show Notes: Tas LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/tasbober/) Her B2B website and landing page resource hub (https://share.hsforms.com/15UBXzrMjTgqAaYP4FyfrVQokh1r) Tas Website (https://delphiniumsolutions.com/) Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Ever wonder why most bottom-of-funnel content feels generic and fails to convert? In this episode, content strategy advisor Lashay Lewis drops knowledge bombs on the critical gap between product marketing and content marketing. She breaks down why teams are working in silos, how bottom-funnel content fails when the reader knows more than the writer, and why product marketers are the unsung heroes of effective marketing.  Why the knowledge level of the reader being higher than the writer kills bottom-funnel content conversions The reason most marketing teams fail to create effective bottom-funnel content  "Micro action, macro patience": The mindset shift that can transform your career in 6 months Why most companies operate like high school cliques, and how to break those silos The uncomfortable truth: freelance writers can't create effective technical bottom-funnel content Listen for practical frameworks on cross-team collaboration and real talk on making the scary leap from full-time to fractional success. Timespan: 02:12 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 04:15 Product Marketers as Underutilized Marketing MVPs 06:41 The Problem with Siloed Communication in Marketing Teams 09:12 What is the Bottom of Funnel Gap? 12:03 Why Bottom Funnel Content Fails to Convert 14:53 Questions to Ask Different Teams for Effective Bottom Funnel Content 19:12 Lashay's Journey to Building Bottom Funnel Expertise 24:34 Transitioning from In-House to Consulting 28:06 The Benefits of Leaving In-House for Consulting 31:57 "The Pain of Staying the Same" Mindset 36:41 Building Momentum with "Micro Action, Macro Patience" 40:32 What's Next for Lashay and Where to Find Her Show Notes: Lashay on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/lashaylewis/) Rob Kaminsky and Anthony Pieri's Product Marketing Content (https://www.fletchpmm.com/best-practices) Exit 5 Podcast Episode featuring Lashay Lewis (https://www.exitfive.com/podcast/drive-revenue-with-bofu-content) Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is your win-loss data just expensive fiction written by your sales team? In this episode, Ryan Sorley (ex-Forrester, ex-Gartner) joins the crew to expose the hard truth about buyer research. From ripped jeans costing deals to bootstrapping a business while juggling kids and payroll, Ryan doesn't hold back on his journey from corporate misery to specialized success. Oh, and we uncovered the stupidly simple reason most product marketers fail at research. Tune in for honest laughs, real insights, and maybe a wake-up call about your "data." In this episode, we're covering: How to run a solo business when you have kids and bills to pay The "Taylor Swift Squad" theory of business growth Why most buyer research is just wishful thinking with fancy graphs The Powder Blue Taurus Moment: when Ryan knew corporate life was BS Why writing a business plan is a complete waste of time for solopreneurs How Ryan went from 0 to 100 clients with ZERO salespeople Check out his new book Blindspots on Amazon too! Timestamps: 01:00 Introducing Ryan Sorley, Win-Loss Research Expert 02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 04:15 Ryan's Take on Product Marketing as Research 06:45 The Importance of Intentional Research 10:00 The "Superpower" of Win-Loss Analysis 12:34 The HubSpot Ripped Jeans Story 17:15 Ryan's Entrepreneurial Journey 19:00 The NJ Turnpike Moment: When Ryan Knew Corporate Life Wasn't for Him 21:00 How Ryan Discovered the Win-Loss Opportunity 23:45 Ryan's Transition from Gartner to Entrepreneurship 27:00 What's the Minimum Viable Plan for Going Solo? 30:00 The "Squad Life" Approach to Client Relationships 34:00 The Dark Times: Managing Cash Flow and Contractors 39:00 Specialization vs. Generalization in Consulting 42:45 Ryan's New Book: "Blind Spots" (Launch April 1st) 44:30 Closing Remarks and Farewell Show Notes: Ryan's LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryansorley/) Blindspots on Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/Blindspots-Ultimate-Building-Win-Loss-Program-ebook/dp/B0DYG9DMWR) Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is your message testing just throwing random ingredients into a pot and hoping it tastes good? In this no-holds-barred episode, the boys tackle the chaos of message testing and why most PMMs are doing it wrong. From useless A/B tests with tiny sample sizes to executives demanding "just one more tweak," we dive into what actually works. Tune in for laughs, practical frameworks, and why your mom's cooking method isn't a valid messaging strategy. We're covering: Only 30% of product marketers have ever actually tested a message (and most of them did it wrong) Why A/B testing is the "let's not commit" cop-out of marketing teams The one-variable rule: why testing multiple things at once is destroying your results The critical difference between message testing and A/B testing that most marketers miss How to build a message testing framework that gets leadership buy-in immediately If you've ever sat through a meeting where someone suggested "Let's A/B test it" for a campaign going to 150 people, this episode will either validate your frustration or completely change how you work. Either way, your next messaging project just got a whole lot more effective. Timestamps 01:39 Question: How Many PMMs Actually Test Messages? 02:31 Why A/B Testing Is Often the Wrong Approach 04:00 Statistical Significance and Sample Size Problems 05:58 Testing Text vs. Testing Visuals 06:05 Messaging as Strategy vs. Tactical Implementation   09:01 Differentiating Message Testing from A/B Testing 12:15 The Commitment Problem in Marketing Decision-Making 16:16 How Trade Shows Can Validate Positioning and Messaging 19:45 Message Testing to Define Product Uniqueness 22:00 Eric's Process Misstep: Jumping to Experimentation Too Soon 27:45 The Scientific Method in Message Testing 29:01 The Gumbo Analogy: Why Most Marketing Isn't Replicable 34:15 Isolating Variables in Message Testing 35:36 Building a Strong Hypothesis Framework 38:25 Gab's Message Testing Resources (Message Market Fit) 41:30 The ROI of Message Testing and Business Consequences 44:35 Final Thoughts and Key Takeaways Show notes: Victoria Rudi's (https://www.linkedin.com/in/victoriarudi/) Messaging Frameworks Message Market Fit (https://message-market-fit.com/) - Gab's resource for message testing frameworks and templates. Freckle.io (https://www.freckle.io/) - The Clay alternative talked in the example Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

We have a rule here: Never get the same guest twice. Well, we’ve just broken it now because we’re getting Michele Nieberding for the 2nd time! The Director of Product Marketing at Metarouter, the Martech queen and two-time Top 100 PMM, returns to challenge one of the biggest assumptions about product marketers. We dive into the blurred lines between PMM, marketing, and product teams, why some org structures set PMMs up for failure, and how AI is reshaping the role. Plus, Michele drops tactical insights on working with sales, disqualifying bad leads, and scaling impact as a solo PMM. We’ve talked about:  ✅ The launch hamster wheel—why PMMs get stuck in product launches & how to escape it ✅ The red flags: If your PMM team reports to the CRO, run! 🏃‍♀️ ✅ How to work with sales without becoming a glorified content marketer ✅ The anti-ICP approach: Why knowing who isn’t a fit is just as important ✅ Feature matrix vs. value selling: When does sales actually need that comparison chart? ✅ AI for PMMs—the right (and wrong) ways to use AI for messaging, content, and research ✅ The rise of VP of Product Marketing—finally, a real PMM career path? ✅ The troubling trend: Why “Director of Growth & PMM” is a dangerous hybrid role ✅ Buffets, bad dating analogies, and how to disqualify bad fits faster than a bad Tinder date 🔊 Stay tuned for Michele’s must-know AI hacks, plus the biggest PMM trends shaping 2024! Timespan: 00:59 Introducing the Guest 02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 04:15 Sales and Marketing Insights 09:45 AI in Product Marketing 20:45 Working with Sales Teams 25:13 Navigating Competitor Analysis 26:19 Disqualifying Bad Fits 28:16 Sales Reps and Disqualification 29:01 The Buffet Analogy 33:27 The Anti-ICP Concept 36:21 Sales and Marketing Alignment 42:40 Future Trends in Product Marketing 48:04 Closing Remarks and Farewell Shownotes: Follow Michelle on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-nieberding/) Gong.io (http://Gong.io) (for sales call analysis) (https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-nieberding/) Perplexity AI (for deep research) (https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-nieberding/) Notebook LM (Google AI-powered research tool) (https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-nieberding/) Gamma AI (Instant slide deck generator) (https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-nieberding/) BuyWords (on-demand copywriting agency) (https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-nieberding/) Keyplay’s ICP Transition Gap (https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-nieberding/) AgentGPT (AI agents for research & automation) (https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-nieberding/) Prompt Genie (Optimized AI prompting tool) (https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-nieberding/) Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Product marketers with a sales background often feel like they have a superpower. The opposite is even truer. Kyle Coleman, CMO at Copy.ai (http://Copy.ai), says yes—and he’s got the career journey to back it up. From SDR to marketing exec, Kyle breaks down why sales and marketing are inseparable, how storytelling (not the best product) wins markets, and why staying close to revenue is the key to career growth. Plus, he shares how he personally closed $350K in outbound sales while leading marketing. ✅ Why storytelling—not features—wins markets (just ask Salesforce). ✅ The biggest mistake most product marketers make when trying to prove their impact. ✅ Sales and marketing: two sides of the same coin or completely different beasts? ✅ Why the best PMMs own the revenue conversation. ✅ The "ivory tower" trap that kills product marketing impact. ✅ Kyle’s secret to getting buy-in from execs for category creation (hint: 75+ interviews). ✅ A real-life sales deck fail—and how Kyle fixed it by actually selling. ✅ The #1 piece of career advice for product marketers who want to be CMOs. If you're a product marketer aiming for the CMO seat, this episode is your playbook. 🔥 Timespan: 00:00 Introduction to the Podcast 00:16 Meet the Hosts 00:56 Introducing the Guest: Kyle Coleman 01:53 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 04:18 Sales and Marketing: A Unified Perspective 05:40 Kyle's Journey from SDR to CMO 07:42 The Importance of Staying Close to Revenue 12:10 Internal Buy-In and Category Definition 15:11 Advice for Aspiring CMOs 19:12 Using AI in Marketing Strategy 21:28 AI in Sales Enablement 22:40 Impact Over Quantity 23:57 Real-World Example: Transitioning to Enterprise 25:49 Hiring the Right Product Marketer 30:29 Marketing as a Leadership Function 34:51 Advice for Product Marketing Candidates 39:06 Kyle's Side Projects and Copy AI 41:45 Final Thoughts and Career Growth Tips Show Notes: Kyle's LinkedIn Profile (https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyletcoleman/) Copy.ai (http://Copy.ai) Christopher Lochhead’s "Position Yourself or Be Positioned" Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

We’re kicking off season 4 with Chanel Chambers, VP of Marketing at Lakeside Software. As a product marketing leader and past music teacher, she’s joining us to break down the role of product marketing, why it's central to a business’s success, and how PMMs can increase their influence. From jazz improvisation to AI-driven business strategies, Chanel shares fresh insights on how product marketers can start treating their role with a business holistic approach and how to create credibility internally AND externally. We’re talked about: 🔹 Why product marketers sit at the center of the entire marketing mix 🔹 How PMMs can transition from order takers to strategic influencers 🔹 The “Land, Expand, Retain” framework every PMM needs to master 🔹 What jazz musicians and product marketers have in common 🔹 How to build credibility and navigate internal conflicts with confidence 🔹 Why business fluency is the key to PMM influence (hint: know your numbers!) 🔹 The difference between activities vs. outcomes—and why PMMs should focus on the latter 🔹 Why AI isn’t changing what businesses need, just how they get there 🔹 The biggest mistake PMMs make when presenting ICP and personas Listen now to get a fresh perspective on how to elevate your role and make a real impact as a PMM! 🎧 Timespan: 00:00 Introduction and Host Introductions 00:55 Special Guest Introduction: Chanel Chambers 02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 03:33 The Role of Product Marketing in Business 09:52 Frameworks and Problem-Solving in Product Marketing 16:03 Outcome-Based Metrics vs. Activity-Based Metrics 18:37 Navigating Organizational Goals and Stakeholders 23:04 Understanding the Role of Personas 24:24 The Importance of Insights Over Reports 25:50 Practicing Influence as a PMM 26:33 Curiosity and Ambiguity in PMM 34:38 Navigating Internal Conflicts 39:47 Final Thoughts and Farewell Show Notes: Chanel LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/chanel-chambers) Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

In this special recap, we dive into what it really means to be a product marketer in the ever-evolving B2B SaaS space—from defining the role to gaining the trust of executives and product teams. Hear first-hand advice on establishing boundaries, shaping product roadmaps, and showcasing your unique value. Tune in to discover how you can go from feeling misunderstood to being the unignorable voice in your organization. Why product marketing often feels misunderstood—and how to change that. The “secret sauce” to defining your role so everyone, from sales to CEOs, sees your impact. Strategies for sitting in a “neutral” spot on the org chart (and why it’s a dream setup). Insider tips for positioning your product before it’s built—so buyers are ready to say “yes.” How to set healthy boundaries with tasks that aren’t in your zone of genius. This episode is featuring episodes clips from Tamara Grominsky, Dave Gerhardt, and April Dunford. Give it a listen prior to season 4 launching in 2 weeks! Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Product marketing and content marketing—are they allies, or just frenemies in disguise? In this episode, Devin Reed (ex-Gong, ex-Clari, and host of Read Between the Lines) joins the crew to dish out his hot takes on the tension between PMMs and content marketers, why most messaging decks collect dust, and the real secret to making content that resonates.   If you’ve ever questioned whether product marketing is actually marketing (or just internal storytelling), this one’s for you. What You’ll Learn in This Episode: → The biggest mistake product marketers make when handing messaging to content teams → Why most positioning and messaging decks never make it into real-world content → The secret to testing messaging before betting big on a full campaign → How to bridge the gap between internal messaging and market-facing storytelling → The power of creative freedom—why it’s the ultimate flex in B2B marketing → The “two-sentence test” for making sure your messaging actually lands → When it’s too candid—how to balance bold positioning with market perception → How to write messaging that actually reflects what customers say Listen now to hear Devin unfiltered take on product marketing, messaging mistakes, and how to win the content game. Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction and Host Welcome 02:00 Introducing the Special Guest: Devin Reed 04:13 Devin Reed's Insights on Product Marketing 06:00 The Relationship Between Content and Product Marketing 14:51 Testing and Differentiating Marketing Strategies 23:57 Creative Freedom in B2B Marketing 26:23 Writing for Yourself: A Sales Rep's Perspective 26:57 Creating Relatable and Memorable Content 28:12 The Power of Sales Team Collaboration 28:55 The Heat Check: Testing Content Ideas 29:35 Maniacal Focus on Quality Content 29:59 The Importance of Clear and Concise Messaging 31:40 Understanding Your Audience's Language 34:37 Navigating Internal Approval Processes 36:32 Leveraging Customer Insights for Copywriting 43:14 The Creative Process: From Inspiration to Execution 48:34 Final Thoughts and Upcoming Projects Show Notes: The Reeder Website (https://www.thereeder.co/) Reed between the lines podcast (https://open.spotify.com/show/5u2UnlSJjYE7YVQZpLCJza?si%3D4a131cc9da094fb6) Devin’s LinkedIn  (https://www.linkedin.com/in/devinreed/) Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.