#108 - Winnie Chen: managing 17,000 wines in the heart of Macau | Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

Description

In this episode, we travel to Macau to meet Winnie Chen, Assistant Director of Wine & Beverage at SJM Resorts and one of the professionals behind one of the largest wine collections in Asia.

I sit down with Winnie inside the Karl Lagerfeld Hotel to explore her remarkable journey, from discovering wine during a training session in Abu Dhabi to managing more than 17,000 wine labels across nearly 70 restaurants.

Together, we dive into the realities of building a sommelier career, the discipline required to study for the Master Sommelier exam, and what it’s like to work in some of the world’s most luxurious hotels, from the Burj Al Arab in Dubai to the Grand Lisboa Palace in Macau.

We also discuss the evolution of the Macau wine market, the rise of Chinese wines, how massive wine programs are curated, and Winnie’s advice for young sommeliers dreaming of entering the industry.

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My name is Antoine, and I’ve been passionate about wine for several years. I knew nothing at first, so I went out to meet the biggest figures in the industry and turned those encounters into a podcast that’s now listened to by over 100,000 people. I now share with you what I’ve learned, and I hope we embark together on a beautiful wine journey to discover the finest experiences.

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Hi Winnie.
Speaker #1
Hi Antoine.
Speaker #0
Thank you very much for welcoming us here. So we are in the Karl Lagerfeld Hotel and in Mesa, which is one of the restaurants you're managing here, for the wine you're managing here. Before starting, I need to thank Pierre-Marie. So Pierre-Marie Patuay in a previous episode put us in relationship. At the end, I always ask, who is the next person I show in interview? And without hesitating, he said you need to talk to Winnie in Macau. So thank you very much, Pierre-Marie for this We'll talk a lot about the Macau market and the context here. But before, can you start by introducing yourself?
Speaker #1
Sure. Thank you, Antoine. Thank you, Pianahi. I think it's given me a great opportunity here to share my thoughts. So my name is Winnie. I'm Chinese. I'm actually 100% made in China. And right now I'm working in this hotel, which basically results at Gran Lisboa Palace, or I should say SJM Group, as assistant for the beverage director, looking after wine and beverages. So how I started my career, as I always say, it's a wonderful journey. Actually, I graduated in 2010. So I started my management training in... Hakkasan restaurant, actually based in Abu Dhabi. Now it's Emirates Palace. So it's a Chinese restaurant. It's also a Michelin one-star restaurant. So as a management training, so basically we started with everything on the floor. So then comes to wine, was actually another interesting story. So we often have trainings going through. So one day the hotel sommelier, his name is Anand Dukuma. So he organized... tasting and organize the training for every people i mean all the employees in the in the restaurant so the topic is about the lua valley so for me that's one of the magical lesson um why i say that because i'm growing up in a very very traditional family so in china most of us we never drink alcohol before we turn 18 so because you are not adults so you won't touch any alcohol and then that tasting or that training basically i don't really taste anything For me, it's really like alcohol.
Speaker #0
When was it? You were like 18?
Speaker #1
That time I was 21 already. 21. The tasting was, it's not about tasting for me on the first lesson, but it's all about the culture and about the, especially the diverse different style of the wine in that region of Luoyang. It's very, very huge. It keeps in my mind, it's 1,100 kilometers of long river, but you can really divide it into four regions. And each different region, you know, many different LLCs are different styles. And then the culture left behind. So these are making me feel very, very interested. So then after first lesson, they move on to the second one. So it's a weekly training. So then slowly, naturally, I moved myself into WSET. So my first WSET Level 1 was completed in 2012. So then I would say a bit greedy or I would say a bit ambitious is when I'm doing Level 1, I was thinking I should do Level 2. So when I was doing Level 2, I'm actually thinking to do Level 3. So it's really like, because the knowledge really for me is a very, very, I would say curiosity that brings me there. So I passed my WSJ diploma in 2018. So I think completely into six years. And of course, Hakka-san gave me the first lesson. And after that, I advanced myself into Dubai. So it's another international city. So Dubai, I entered a hotel called Bojahrab. It's a cell-shaped, so seven-star hotel. We have a group of 14 sommeliers. Until now, we still have a group. We're chatting, not every day, but we do time by time. So we missed the time we actually worked together. So 14 sommeliers in that time, I mean, during 2015 time, it's a very big group. And we overlook 1,200 SKUs, I mean, different labels. I think I studied myself, I mean, how to say, I deepened myself into more on seller management, of course, more on guest experience, especially international clientele. So I completed the bird job in 2019. So after that, it was COVID. So I put myself back to mainland China. So I joined the Granite Spa Palace in 2021. I started my first job here. It's actually Rizal Health Somalia. Then within a couple of years, so I acquired it. I built my own career, so now I'm actually assistant food and beverage director on wine and beverages. So not only wine, of course, beverages, everything's in one plate.
Speaker #0
So you mentioned this first tasting as something revelatory for you, like this is actually what I want to do in my life and deepen my knowledge into that. What were you studying at the time? So you were 21? One.
Speaker #1
Well,
Speaker #0
you was. studying what like hospitality already or hospitality management yes and when you when you told your family actually i want to work in the in the wine industry how did they react my mom says no until
Speaker #1
now she she still sometimes she doesn't accept myself i mean as a girl then she says i'm i'm into myself into this career she still say don't drink too much you know And I was like, okay, okay. But my father actually, in a way, both of them, they support me a lot. Without them, I won't be here. Because, you know, Chinese sometimes are very family-driven. And I'm the only child, so they want me to be around with them. But until now, they give me a lot of support that let me be free and study and, of course, working.
Speaker #0
Okay. And so when you have this first tasting, What is your next step? Is that basically you, so you enjoy it, you realize that wine industry has a lot to offer, then you go see your teachers and you're like, how can I go deeper into it?
Speaker #1
That's an interesting question. Actually, the first class doesn't bring me too much into that. I say, ah, okay, that will be the first, that decides my career. I think at that moment, I put myself into... hospitality management, but rather than specific into wine and beverage or so on. So that time, I think when you were young, I think you probably have a better memory. So then after first lesson, of course, the teacher is going to give you a lot of study material, so you need to go to home and study. But that time, I think one week after, beginning of the second class, the teacher will start asking everybody about questions from the previous lesson. So that time, I think the memory was very good. So they were asking questions so I could answer them. Even that time, I would say I have so much understanding about it. Because for me, that's really completely a new era, new world. So by the, I mean, the head sommelier of the hotel, he encouraged me very much, a lot. Even from WCT1 until WCT level 4. So he constantly encouraged me that you can do it, you can do it. And I see without his encouragement, I won't do that much faster from one to four. If you want to tell, I think I start get the tasting skills more or less when I finish the level two of WCT. That you have really understanding about the wine tasting profile. So that takes me a little bit long time. I always look back and say, I drink very much late. the But I get that kind of, I miss the time, I would say.
Speaker #0
No, WST is a great school of learning how to technically taste wine. Because, you know, you have this very systematic way of tasting the different parts. For me, it was very interesting as well because, you know, obviously I taste wine, I'm interesting in it, but I didn't have this systematic approach and this vocabulary associated, like what is a low, medium, high acidity, you know, like it's basic stuff. But just the fact of putting a clear grid on what is it, it's great. It has some flaws because sometimes it's a bit too, you know, standard. but actually it helps a bit.
Speaker #1
Definitely. It's definitely one of the foundations. It builds the foundation of tasting. So after the diploma, I think I put myself into more professional fields. So then I pursued myself into course of master sommelier. So I think when I do certified, then completely advanced, so then I think it's different. different tasting methods. Of course, it's the same thing you are looking at acidity, alcohol, tannin level, or fruit profile or anything. But the way of detecting the grape variety is something really, how to say, more professional, I would say, more technical in the CMS field. WSCT, in a way, nowadays, I could understand. WSCT is more to help people understand the wine, especially the quality side. CMS called Master Sommelier is more on helping people to detect what grape varieties are vintage and from which country.
Speaker #0
You're a Master Sommelier now?
Speaker #1
I'm not yet. I'm a Master Sommelier candidate. I need more time to study on that.
Speaker #0
And so you already tried or you...
Speaker #1
I tried once last year in October in London. Okay.
Speaker #0
It takes time to be a master sommelier. A lot of people need a few tries to validate that.
Speaker #1
Yes, average, I think, need maybe five or six years to do that.
Speaker #0
Yeah. So you kind of started your career in the Emirates, professionally speaking.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
How is it to arrive in... So was it in Abu Dhabi?
Speaker #1
Yes, started in Abu Dhabi, yeah.
Speaker #0
How is it to arrive? You were like 20? 20 something, 22, 23? Yeah,
Speaker #1
20. So 20 I entered Abu Dhabi. So it's, yeah, it's interesting because people sometimes say, oh, how did you study wine in Middle East? That's always a question I get. So after hospitality management, so I think one of the key tourism is that time in the Middle East. So I'll never be there. So for girls, I think it's always great to see the world, to see it. here I also again need to appreciate my parents so they really support me to let me go out so to see different worlds yeah plus for them it's not easy to see their girl going to the Middle East you know alone at 20 or something yeah and so you you start as a sommelier yeah assistant oh I started with actually management trainee just the trainee so working in the restaurants okay and then you go to Dubai yeah then Go to Dubai. So like four years time in Abu Dhabi, then four years time in Dubai.
Speaker #0
Okay. And you were living in Abu Dhabi and then in Dubai?
Speaker #1
Yeah. It's two different companies. Emirates Palace was my first job. So of course, we stayed in Abu Dhabi for four years. But that time, especially for my WSE level three, the courses are happening in Dubai. So basically, I need to travel every week to do the courses. Then after Abu Dhabi, then I moved myself into Dubai. So of course, I just stayed in Dubai. Okay.
Speaker #0
And so how was it being a sommelier in Dubai?
Speaker #1
Very interesting, actually. So as I mentioned, 14 sommeliers, right? We have a group of 14 sommeliers. I still remember when I received the message from the head sommelier of Burj Arab. So the first question he was asking me, do you feel comfortable to work with 13 men? So during the time, I mean, back to... 10 years so very rare they have a girl female sommelier very rare mostly they are gentlemen but men so I feel it's okay I mean I didn't think of something you really need to put the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the female so the way I told him I think it's it's maybe feel more lucky because I have people to look after right so then I answered so you Again, it's end of day, I feel. It's really with all our 11 boys, they don't have more. We have two more girls joining as well. So our team members are really working like a family and really like brothers, sisters. We help each other. And especially, you know, in Belgium, all the restaurants, if I'm in any restaurant, we do a split shift. So you have lunch shift, you have dinner shift. So most of our time, we're working two shifts. So basically, all of us, you arrive in the hotel probably 11 o'clock a.m. or 12. So then, of course, you do your medicine plus, then you start your operation at 12. Of course, you have breathing and so on. So when the lunch operation finishes around 3 or 3.30, so between 3.30, for example, until your 5.30 or 6 o'clock, your dinner operation, so the two and a half hour gap there. So, of course, sometimes you need to walk on to... you put all the wines back in your cellar, you make sure you have some extra storage, or you have some admin paperwork. But again, you always have some certain times, these two and a half hours, you are free. So what we do is we have a lot of... private rooms of restaurants. So we grab our book, study materials. So then we go to that private and we study together. Of course, sometimes we organize a lot of tastings in Birch. So every day, one week or maybe two weeks time, you always can get winemakers or the sales director or any ambassador they come to Dubai. So they organize a masterclass for all the shops. So see, I mean, the work... Work life and study life is basically combined. So great. I miss the time over there, actually, really a lot.
Speaker #0
Yeah, it looks like a time when you had the opportunity to kind of mix things, learn a lot. It's great that you have this in between your service, because a lot of people actually complain that between the services, there is nothing to do. And then, you know, you just waste like three hours, can't go home. just do something because sure in Dubai there is like the time you take the car get to a place and then come back then it's been three hours Bourj Al Arab is one of the most iconic and luxurious hotel in the world so like you said it's a seven stars well they looks like they've decided themselves to award the seven stars so like I'm not sure there is a proper ranking for the number of stars but But anyway, it's like one of the, probably the most luxurious hotel. Have you seen, like, does it change that much working for such a high level hotel than working here? For example, here it's like five stars, Palace as well.
Speaker #1
You are absolutely right. There's no proper ranking for border up as a seven star. So it's actually... But the Bojahrabi, if you go to the entrance, it's still a five-star hotel. Why it comes to seven? Because one of the English journalists, they came to Birch, they stayed with us. Then after he departed back to London, so he wrote a very big article saying that the experience, the services he received is over five stars. So he thinks that is a seven-star service. That time it's really like seven to one, like seven stars looking after one guest. I mean, that kind of ratio. So that's how the seven star hotel comes from. There's another joke saying that actually in entire Burj Al Arab, we use the 49 tons of gold. So when you go to the toilet, there are some corners, it's always with gold flakes. It's real gold. So it's like they said it's around 49 tons. So then when the Emirates Palace built after, so actually in Emirates Palace, it was talking about 50 something, 56 or something, 56 tons of gold. That's why there's always say Emirates Palace like A-star hotel. But again, no proper rank, but in a way. Here in Macau, so our Grand Lisbon Palace result, we are also very special. We are the only hotel in the world. Because we have three hotels combined. The Karl Lagerfeld is where we are standing. We have the Plaza of Versace Macau. So it's next door. And of course, we have the main building, the Gran Lisboa Palace. So all three hotels have received five-star Forbes. I think it's really one of the only ones, I should say, in the world. And also, all the hotels, we have two Michelin keys. So, I mean, in Macau, we really... also looking for seek for the excellence on different channel of course in the service and in Macau I would say in Asia we care service more than anyone else it's the same thing we and demanding or you will say the guest expectation is not going to lower than any other else it's always super high yeah
Speaker #0
and Chinese hospitality in general is known to be to be amazing when you go to to hotels uh, In China, it's amazing. So right now, you are managing the wine and beverage selection for all the restaurants of these three hotels.
Speaker #1
Yes, we are actually an SGM group. So we have here, we have Grand Lisboa Palace Resort that combines three hotels we just mentioned. We also have Grand Lisboa, which is in the Macau side.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
And we also have another hotel called The Luck, which we just purchased recently. So all those are under SGM Group. So we are like a kind of corporate looking after all the wines and beverages.
Speaker #0
And so how many restaurants?
Speaker #1
In this building, in Grand Lisboa Palace Resort, we have around 33 outlets. And of course, plus Grand Lisboa, we have additional like 10. And The Luck, maybe around five. So everything added together, it's around 70.
Speaker #0
Okay. And so it must be a lot of different staff to train, a lot of different SKUs. So I guess, does the wine selection change depending on where you are in the group?
Speaker #1
Yes. We are holding the largest wine selection in Asia. So we have around 17,000 SKUs. Not talking about bottle labels.
Speaker #0
17,000?
Speaker #1
17,000, yes. So then, of course, different restaurants will be slightly different with the Wine by the Glass program. For example, now we're in Mesa. Mesa is more Portuguese. So we actually created another 100% Portuguese wine list only for these restaurants. And of course, we have more Versace. So it's Italian cuisine, Italian style. So we more on Italian wines. And then we have Palace Garden. So more on the Chinese Cantonese. So we get more focus on French.
Speaker #0
Hmm. How do you manage 17,000
Speaker #1
SKUs? It's not only one person. It definitely needs a lot of teamwork. So we have different teams. For example, Granite Sport, we have a Granite Sport team. We used to have three 590 restaurants over there. Here we have four 590 restaurants over here. So team adds up together, it's around 14 people. Again, 14.
Speaker #0
And do you still serve clients or are you more focused on managing the team, managing the SKUs, training the team to sell the wine?
Speaker #1
I would say both, but now I spend a slightly less time on the floor. That's yes, but I really miss a lot. Admin work will be a bit more overloaded. Of course, we still have two projects on the pipeline, so working on that too. But we have a lot of wine dinners happening. For example, the year of 2026, we have organized around 12 to 14 wine dinners in the entire year of 2026. So like every one month, we have one dinner. So that needs a lot of coordination too. And then all those wine dinners or VIP guest events we have, I always be with them until the last moment. Yeah.
Speaker #0
Okay. And so considering that you have 70... restaurants uh working uh like together do you like do you still manage to buy some low volumes here and there or when you buy a wine it must be like a gigantic orders for for people so do you still manage to work like with small estates and you know to try to identify really niche things or do you try to just bulk buy uh we prefer niche
Speaker #1
I would say that because our, yes, we have 17,000 labels. So we have a lot of focus on the big brands, of course, the more popular. But now the market is changing a bit. Of course, demanding on the niche and boutique wineries are even higher and higher. So we do focus on those as well, especially in the Grand Lisbon Palace results here. We more focus on, for example, even the Gros-Royal Champagne, for sure. We have a lot of smaller Gros-Royal Champagne and they are more like on. allocation style and of course big brand we also do but won't be very like a booker in a large volume purchase so it's more on we observe the market and see how well the demand is and so you you are responsible for for this as well yeah of course together with the team so because who understand the guest most is actually the person who working on the floor every day so I always listen to this advice or suggestion from all the team members.
Speaker #0
What's the type of people who come here?
Speaker #1
Type of people? How to say that? Macau is a gaming hospitality-driven. So because we all follow the government and also ourselves as well, so we're trying to promote as much as we can with non-gaming elements, for example, food and beverage. Especially, I mean, in Granite Spot Palace, we focus more. on food and beverage. So to provide the service or provide the best wine, our guest clientele is more on foodies and who's really loving the wine. And one thing to mention is in our, in SGM, so we are trying to have a very reasonable selling price in our wine list. So if you check out our wine list, you will see most of the wine that you may find is quite, quite close to retail price or quite, quite close. I wouldn't say the same as the one in Sochi, but definitely reasonable, as we always... follow dr stanley jose that he wants every single guest come to granite's papaya comes to sgm so they can enjoy wine and food like you are actually doing at home so it's like a more homie style okay and um and yeah and so you you said that you're trying to promote more food and wine than gaming um it's definitely it's one of the key element we want to promote for sure But gaming is always, this is hospitality, right?
Speaker #0
And do you have a lot of winemakers coming here to present the wine and to show you things?
Speaker #1
We do, especially, and also we are very close to Hong Kong. So then every, this year, actually, 26th May, we have Wien Expo. So by the time we should have a lot of winemakers who would like to come to Macau to tell us a story about, of course, the winery.
Speaker #0
Will definitely be around for Vinaxpo. I think it's going to be an amazing moment for the wine industry. Yeah,
Speaker #1
and actually we have around 14 wine dinners on the way. So every wine dinner, we definitely have winery representatives, winemakers or owners are here as well to share more stories about our guests here. Of course, you know, gaming as well, wine lovers around the town.
Speaker #0
What differences do you see between Dubai and Macau?
Speaker #1
Number one, I would say the customer profile, because there is more international. So you will see a lot of European in Dubai. And after COVID, they have even more of Russians, I think, and more European people over there. But in Macau, I would say 80% is more on Chinese, other than from mainland. And some are from Hong Kong and some, of course, more. percentage of Europeans are getting smaller and smaller. Of course we have more Asia like Japan, Korea, Thailand, Southeast Asia.
Speaker #0
I see around the table that you have a lot of awards. I can see like top 100 tables, Taitler 2025. Is it something that is important to you? Do you contribute to this?
Speaker #1
It's a restaurant's effort. It's a team's effort. So that's also one of the key proof for us. We really want to do things seriously on our food and beverage. So this is the food. So, of course, linked to the restaurant of the chef. So chef is trying to contribute a lot from their side. So they will get 100 table, Tesla events, awards, and also, of course, the sea trip. So all these awards are being... it's team efforts. Wine, we have different wine awards. So we also participate Star Wine List, Wine Spectator, and also World of Fine Wine Awards. And also we do have Champagne in Asia as well. So we have different categories.
Speaker #0
One of the topics that is very important to us is Chinese wines. So, you know, we've been kind of exploring the Exploring, it's a big word, but we have started exploring Chinese wines, trying to taste, trying to go see what is happening in China. Is it something that you also push here? I mean, more Chinese wines, maybe if you have Chinese restaurants, having a bit more of wines from China? Or is it or like do you keep many international? Like what's your vision on Chinese wines?
Speaker #1
In our result, the ratio between Chinese and non-Chinese, I would say, a bit more smaller, definitely if you were compared to other results. The reason why is actually we have a very, very large wine selection, so 70% of the other. So if you're talking about like 20 or 30 Chinese, that's the ratio is really too small. and also one thing I mentioned earlier is all French wine, Italian wine, American wine, all those we actually... collected them a very long, long, long time back, like 20 years ago. So that's also the reason why our price is so reasonable for wine collectors or wine lovers to come and enjoy. So if in front of you that these wines are already high volume, too rare to try. So I think that they will always make a choice of non-Chinese. But I would definitely say Chinese wine, as I'm also Chinese, our Chinese wine, I've tasted last five to 10 years, all the different years of production. So the winemaking skills is much higher than before. And also all the wineries, they have identical style. Because in the past, if you also taste some Chinese wine, so like 10 years ago, you may taste all the wine that tastes quite similar. So they are very copy and paste. Also, not copy and paste, it's more like the style.
Speaker #0
close to Bordeaux, some are close to Burgundy. But nowadays, you can taste some of wines that are really, really interesting, linked to a terroir, linked to that piece of land. I think that's very, very important. So I would say this is really called Chinese wine. So that from that land, we find the best grape suitable for that piece of land, then make a wine. So I think this is, I definitely say Chinese wine will be one of the fascinating things coming.
Speaker #1
Yeah, 100%. amazing thing amazing things are happening in chinese wines um if i am uh so you know this podcast is um uh listened by amateurs like you know wine amateurs people who really enjoy it but it's also listened by uh professionals in the wine industry especially some students as a sommelier and also some producers so the the two questions i have for you is if i am a young sommelier Okay. like students student sommelier what would you say to them to like what would be advice for starting a good advice for starting a career in the industry for
Speaker #0
the younger sommeliers I would say be patient because sommelier career is not easy to make you get So. quick money because I mean money is one thing for a lot of people. I mean they're looking for a job, right? So maybe for a couple of first couple of years, you may look at your salary won't be that much high. You need to really put yourself down to study. You need to understand the wine, understand the tasting, understand the service. When you reach a certain point, I think that you can... we start to build your career path, then maybe you're going to have that. It's a job, I would say, need a lot of patience, need a lot of discipline, need a lot of time to settle ourselves down. Some people, they say, the first couple of years, you always study. You don't study, sometimes you feel boring. Sometimes, then you have a lot of volume, especially in front of you, you have a lot of tastings. regions and laws or great varieties you have when you see massive information in front of you need to study some people they get scared sometimes they you feel overwhelmed sometimes you feel afraid so it's it's it's normal but i see a lot of younger sommelier they start quitting they said ah this is not really food for me so maybe i'm gonna move myself into insurance i see some people are moving into maybe into um managerial that will be great if they leave the hospitality a lot of people doing this way i mean of course it's end of days everybody's choice but i mean if you're one person when you settle yourself with a goal to be sommelier and to be in the hospitality industry you need to start accepting first that this is a different role i mean this role will be full of difficulties or that you need to face and to solve the problem but please believe end of the day for sure you will see a bright bright um yourself and bright future too um and same question but more for wine producers so
Speaker #1
if i am a wine producer in europe for example in france or in italy or something turns out i'm doing kind of good wines but i want you to to discover them and to bring them on the list here. What should I do?
Speaker #0
We're happy to do a tasting together. And of course, we're together with the sommelier team, so we can taste together and see how the wine that goes to particular restaurants. Because at the end of the day, it's food and wine pairing together, right? So it's always need to have a match. So then let's see if these winemakers, does he has already the... a collaborative vendor or distributor in Hong Kong and Macau if yes much easier if not we can start helping them to find a distributor responsible for them so then the procurement process is following okay so the you
Speaker #1
would say the first step is actually come here and just reach out to you to the hotel to like whatever and try to meet you and bring you
Speaker #0
bring a bit of butters to yeah to tell the story and maybe the philosophy that you really carry on and of course at the end of the day it's the glass matter yeah makes sense um
Speaker #1
I think we've covered a lot into what you're doing. Is there things we didn't mention?
Speaker #0
I think we covered everything, yeah.
Speaker #1
For the... I have a question about actually about here, about the Karl Lagerfeld Hotel. How did it... Like, it's the first time I hear about the Karl Lagerfeld Hotel. How did it happen?
Speaker #0
This hotel is designed by Karl Lagerfeld. It has been designed by him? Yes. So if you pass by the ground floor, you will see the book lounge. So that's because he loves books. And whenever you go, all the different... Actually, the color tone here is more on the black, gold, and red. This is the color he likes. And actually, everything is designed by him. But unfortunately, he designed everything, but he couldn't see it as well. So as you may know, he passed away in 2019.
Speaker #1
He passed away before the opening of the hotel?
Speaker #0
We opened this hall during COVID times, 2021 July. So two years before he passed away.
Speaker #1
Oh, wow.
Speaker #0
But every single corner, it's actually designed by him.
Speaker #1
Oh, wow.
Speaker #0
So we are one and only.
Speaker #1
Yeah, actually, you know, when I've seen that, I was like, I don't know, Karl Lagerfeld, what is it? And I thought it would be like, you know, he licensed his name and that's it. I actually didn't know he would design everything around here. We'll have a tour of the ground floor because we went through some elevators to arrive here, but we'll go to the ground floor to see the bookshelves. Great. How is it to study for a master's summary? I don't want to put some pressure, but...
Speaker #0
Well, I hear this is already with the pressure, actually. I'm trying to level up. So I'm... uh as i said i actually tried myself last year as well in october um i think it's very important to put yourself on a trial because every time when i hear from my friends from people who pass exam they're always going to tell you that there's certain things you need to face but when you're really sitting in the exam uh the the pressure or the amount of studies and also the angle of questions. So these, I think you will understand more. So after that exam, I... understand more on the question and of course more on the level of the master sommelier is looking for. So on this I think I'm quite clear. But the one another thing is the information is massive. So you just mentioned wine laws then wine regions, sub-regions and of course different percentage of alcohol or different percentage of sugar, whatever. So all those you have to understand and memorize them. Especially my workload is a bit I sometimes need to manage my workload. So then I always say time, you need to try to squeeze the time for your own style of study. As I mentioned earlier as well, actually, every day morning, I try to wake up at 6.30 in the morning. So the first two hours for me is really, my brain is much more clear and sharp. After that, if I'm moving to my separate, 9 o'clock, I'm already in here. I'm already in hotels doing some work. start my morning briefing and of course, eventually all the works and meetings and so on. So sometimes my job finished by 10. Sometimes with VIP events or wine dinners, most probably finish one or two. So during all the meetings, I think trying level best to see if I can squeeze that 15 minutes or five minutes just to go through the questions. It's very hard. I mean, for piece of advice for people, whoever wants to go for master's level exam, you need to really understand your Your timing and, of course, your discipline and, of course, your level of managing your own things. Of course, you need to manage your work, your family and yourself, of course. But again, I think it's a job, it's an exam to teach us how to be a better person. I think in terms of discipline, in terms of the level of time and effort you put in, definitely develop.
Speaker #1
for sure once you pass well i i wish you the best uh for this example how are you gonna make it um and yeah it looks like uh it looks like something uh really uh really huge in terms of workload and and commitment um and then what like what would be the difference for you if
Speaker #0
tomorrow you're master sommelier like will it change what does it change in your life um that's also not a good question so um i think The personally or professionally into the work, I think Master Sommelier title. Definitely going to bring a lot of windows. Of course, that brings number one, the credibility that people are looking at you. For example, when you are talking about a glass of water or a glass of wine, as a master sommelier, when you tell them something about a story about tasty notes, they may look differently from guest's point of view. So I think that definitely going to help to build up. personal, I would say, professionalism image. That would be definitely a key thing. But when talking about the personality, I would say hard work pays off because you really put a lot of time and effort, discipline and commitment to it, then you deserve that title. So for the personal, I would say, you can always tell yourself, wow, you did a good job. That's one key thing for being a personal. But along with all those, I think, again, you need to come up with responsibilities. So when you're being a master sommelier, like I see Pierre-Marie, I see Ronan, they're always helping the younger generation to set up a new standard, to set up the way of learning and the level of service and the level of tasting. So these are all along with responsibilities. It's not only you pass and today it's finished. You'd have to embrace the... community and also the industry people.
Speaker #1
You know, I interviewed a few years ago Pascaline Le Pelletier, who is France's best sommelier in, I don't know which year, and she represented France in a world-best sommelier. She finished second twice, things like that. She works in New York. And she told me something very inspiring in that, so, you know, she's, I don't know how to say, but like it's a title in France. It's like best, best worker in France in sommelier. And so she can have blue, white, red collar, you know, from France. And she was like, the day I feel I don't deserve this anymore, I won't wear it anymore. And like, it's not because I won one year in my life that I can wear that for the rest of my life without like continuing working and improving and bringing things to people, bringing the wine industry to a next step. And I think it was super inspiring because more personally speaking, at that time, I was training for a marathon. And I was like, you know what, I do a marathon, then I can say I did a marathon and it's okay. But then talking to her, I realized that It's worth nothing if I can't continue to have such an achievement in my life. Like running a marathon once is great, but being able to run it whenever you want in your life is something else. Like it's really another level. I'm not saying I could run a marathon tomorrow, but you know what I mean? Like you continue to deserve the award you acquired or the diploma you acquired.
Speaker #0
Wow, that's... That's so inspiring, actually. So actually, it reminds me of another person, Roberto. He just passed his master's somewhere last year. So this January, I was in Singapore. So he opened a new wine room called Temper in Singapore. So, of course, I said, I want to go there to have a look. It's a new wine lounge. Then I wanted to text him that I'm going to that Temper. So most probably we can meet up. So then the... In the message, he told me, I said, ah, where are you? He said, ah, I'm actually home doing study. So he took a picture of that page. It's about Chile. So he's really studying. I said, oh, wow, you're doing studies. He said, yes. So he's trying to maintain that, you know, he's already master of something. He expects the people's expectation to him. That makes me feel like I was super inspiring that when people reach the title, but he still continues study. F Something I really admire.
Speaker #1
That's impressive. Thank you very much, Winnie, for all this. It was an amazing discussion. Thank you very much for helping us discover this Karl Lagerfeld Hotel and this atmosphere. I think there is good learning in your career as a sommelier. And also, I hope it will inspire a younger generation listening to that and having a first glimpse in... What does it look like after what's been 10 years? Basically, you're working maybe a bit less in the industry.
Speaker #0
Now, 13 years.
Speaker #1
13 years. Okay, so a bit more than 10 years. So it's a good view for people projecting into what's going to be the first 10 years of my career. So that's amazing. And thank you for sharing this journey. I have three last questions that are pretty traditional in this podcast. the first thing is is do you have a book recommendation about wine in preference?
Speaker #0
Yes, I actually do have two books to recommend. One about viticulture and one about vinification. So maybe for some people, they feel it's quite a boring book, but it's really for me to understand quickly about viticulture and vinification. That's the two really books I really love. One is for viticulture and understand wines. And also another one is called Understand the Wine Technology, written by Mr. David Bird. So that's one of the very old books, but I think it's still available to find. But it's really, he's trying to use some simple wording to help you understand winemaking techniques. So for that two books, I highly recommend.
Speaker #1
Great. We'll put link in the description if you want to find it. Do you have a recent tasting that you loved? like a A wine that you tasted recently that was nice?
Speaker #0
Wow, that's a very good question. Recently, maybe yesterday, we were much more closer. So yesterday, I tasted some wine that was actually made by Michel Chapetier. He has a new project in Portugal. So the wine was from Portugal. The white and red for me is like something interesting. The Torreganese makes me feel like, wow, it's something with a lot of French touch. It's very elegant. So I think it's something to recommend. It's not high-end, but it's beautiful.
Speaker #1
Amazing. And we salute Michel Chaptier. He was one of the first person to come on the podcast.
Speaker #0
Oh, yeah.
Speaker #1
But it's in French. It was at the time we were doing in French, but actually it was one of the first interviews I did. And it was an amazing discussion. I think I learned loads of things with this interview. And he was very into sharing. And we should do a new interview, but in English. next time we see him actually I don't know if he speaks super well English we'll see I guess he speaks well English but yeah very nice guy and he kind of contributed to starting this podcast and finally who is the next person we should interview?
Speaker #0
I'm thinking Fennel Mark Fennel is now the head sommelier for Alan Dukas in COD City of Dreams so I think Fennel I knew him as a very good friend. So sometimes we actually study together, doing a lot of questionnaires. So of course, we threw video calls too. He's a very disciplined person as well, very hardworking. And he's very, very professional into his own world. And of course, he's also another target to help the younger generation, to help the team to grow up. So I think I recommend him.
Speaker #1
Amazing. It's based in Macau? Yes, based in Macau. That's great. It should be a good excuse to come back. Yeah, please. That's great news. Thank you very much, Winnie, for this. Thank you for sharing this. If you like this episode, if you're still here, it means that you like this episode, actually. So don't forget to share it to at least two people, maybe two people wanting to join the wine world as a sommelier or studying to become sommelier or master sommelier. Don't forget to subscribe, share, like, everything. Check the description for the elements Winnie showed to us. Come to Macau if you have the opportunity. Come to Mesa and the restaurants around here. Winnie, thanks again and see you soon.
Speaker #0
Thank you, Anouar. See you soon.
Speaker #1
Fine.
Speaker #0
Thank you.
Speaker #1
Great interview. Thanks a lot.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

Join us on Wine Makers Show, the podcast that uncorks the world of wine! Hosted by Antoine, a passionate entrepreneur and wine enthusiast, this show dives deep into the stories, expertise, and journeys of the people who make wine extraordinary—winemakers, sommeliers, vintners, and industry trailblazers.

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Wine Makers Show is your gateway to understanding wine like never before. With a focus on storytelling and sharing, Antoine brings you closer to the heart of the wine industry, one conversation at a time. Expect authentic discussions, insider knowledge, and a celebration of the craft and culture of wine.

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

In this episode, we travel to Macau to meet Winnie Chen, Assistant Director of Wine & Beverage at SJM Resorts and one of the professionals behind one of the largest wine collections in Asia.

We also discuss the evolution of the Macau wine market, the rise of Chinese wines, how massive wine programs are curated, and Winnie’s advice for young sommeliers dreaming of entering the industry.

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📚 Understanding Wine Technology: The Science of Wine Explained, by David Bird

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🤓 Learn all you need to know about wine with Wine 101, the ultimate online course

🎁 Get your wine essentials on our shop: a curated selection of wine glasses, posters and much more

▬▬ ⭐️ ABOUT ⭐️ ▬▬

ALCOHOL ABUSE IS DANGEROUS FOUR YOUR HEALTH. CONSUME IN MODERATION.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
Hi Winnie.
Speaker #1
Hi Antoine.
Speaker #0
Thank you very much for welcoming us here. So we are in the Karl Lagerfeld Hotel and in Mesa, which is one of the restaurants you're managing here, for the wine you're managing here. Before starting, I need to thank Pierre-Marie. So Pierre-Marie Patuay in a previous episode put us in relationship. At the end, I always ask, who is the next person I show in interview? And without hesitating, he said you need to talk to Winnie in Macau. So thank you very much, Pierre-Marie for this We'll talk a lot about the Macau market and the context here. But before, can you start by introducing yourself?
Speaker #1
Sure. Thank you, Antoine. Thank you, Pianahi. I think it's given me a great opportunity here to share my thoughts. So my name is Winnie. I'm Chinese. I'm actually 100% made in China. And right now I'm working in this hotel, which basically results at Gran Lisboa Palace, or I should say SJM Group, as assistant for the beverage director, looking after wine and beverages. So how I started my career, as I always say, it's a wonderful journey. Actually, I graduated in 2010. So I started my management training in... Hakkasan restaurant, actually based in Abu Dhabi. Now it's Emirates Palace. So it's a Chinese restaurant. It's also a Michelin one-star restaurant. So as a management training, so basically we started with everything on the floor. So then comes to wine, was actually another interesting story. So we often have trainings going through. So one day the hotel sommelier, his name is Anand Dukuma. So he organized... tasting and organize the training for every people i mean all the employees in the in the restaurant so the topic is about the lua valley so for me that's one of the magical lesson um why i say that because i'm growing up in a very very traditional family so in china most of us we never drink alcohol before we turn 18 so because you are not adults so you won't touch any alcohol and then that tasting or that training basically i don't really taste anything For me, it's really like alcohol.
Speaker #0
When was it? You were like 18?
Speaker #1
That time I was 21 already. 21. The tasting was, it's not about tasting for me on the first lesson, but it's all about the culture and about the, especially the diverse different style of the wine in that region of Luoyang. It's very, very huge. It keeps in my mind, it's 1,100 kilometers of long river, but you can really divide it into four regions. And each different region, you know, many different LLCs are different styles. And then the culture left behind. So these are making me feel very, very interested. So then after first lesson, they move on to the second one. So it's a weekly training. So then slowly, naturally, I moved myself into WSET. So my first WSET Level 1 was completed in 2012. So then I would say a bit greedy or I would say a bit ambitious is when I'm doing Level 1, I was thinking I should do Level 2. So when I was doing Level 2, I'm actually thinking to do Level 3. So it's really like, because the knowledge really for me is a very, very, I would say curiosity that brings me there. So I passed my WSJ diploma in 2018. So I think completely into six years. And of course, Hakka-san gave me the first lesson. And after that, I advanced myself into Dubai. So it's another international city. So Dubai, I entered a hotel called Bojahrab. It's a cell-shaped, so seven-star hotel. We have a group of 14 sommeliers. Until now, we still have a group. We're chatting, not every day, but we do time by time. So we missed the time we actually worked together. So 14 sommeliers in that time, I mean, during 2015 time, it's a very big group. And we overlook 1,200 SKUs, I mean, different labels. I think I studied myself, I mean, how to say, I deepened myself into more on seller management, of course, more on guest experience, especially international clientele. So I completed the bird job in 2019. So after that, it was COVID. So I put myself back to mainland China. So I joined the Granite Spa Palace in 2021. I started my first job here. It's actually Rizal Health Somalia. Then within a couple of years, so I acquired it. I built my own career, so now I'm actually assistant food and beverage director on wine and beverages. So not only wine, of course, beverages, everything's in one plate.
Speaker #0
So you mentioned this first tasting as something revelatory for you, like this is actually what I want to do in my life and deepen my knowledge into that. What were you studying at the time? So you were 21? One.
Speaker #1
Well,
Speaker #0
you was. studying what like hospitality already or hospitality management yes and when you when you told your family actually i want to work in the in the wine industry how did they react my mom says no until
Speaker #1
now she she still sometimes she doesn't accept myself i mean as a girl then she says i'm i'm into myself into this career she still say don't drink too much you know And I was like, okay, okay. But my father actually, in a way, both of them, they support me a lot. Without them, I won't be here. Because, you know, Chinese sometimes are very family-driven. And I'm the only child, so they want me to be around with them. But until now, they give me a lot of support that let me be free and study and, of course, working.
Speaker #0
Okay. And so when you have this first tasting, What is your next step? Is that basically you, so you enjoy it, you realize that wine industry has a lot to offer, then you go see your teachers and you're like, how can I go deeper into it?
Speaker #1
That's an interesting question. Actually, the first class doesn't bring me too much into that. I say, ah, okay, that will be the first, that decides my career. I think at that moment, I put myself into... hospitality management, but rather than specific into wine and beverage or so on. So that time, I think when you were young, I think you probably have a better memory. So then after first lesson, of course, the teacher is going to give you a lot of study material, so you need to go to home and study. But that time, I think one week after, beginning of the second class, the teacher will start asking everybody about questions from the previous lesson. So that time, I think the memory was very good. So they were asking questions so I could answer them. Even that time, I would say I have so much understanding about it. Because for me, that's really completely a new era, new world. So by the, I mean, the head sommelier of the hotel, he encouraged me very much, a lot. Even from WCT1 until WCT level 4. So he constantly encouraged me that you can do it, you can do it. And I see without his encouragement, I won't do that much faster from one to four. If you want to tell, I think I start get the tasting skills more or less when I finish the level two of WCT. That you have really understanding about the wine tasting profile. So that takes me a little bit long time. I always look back and say, I drink very much late. the But I get that kind of, I miss the time, I would say.
Speaker #0
No, WST is a great school of learning how to technically taste wine. Because, you know, you have this very systematic way of tasting the different parts. For me, it was very interesting as well because, you know, obviously I taste wine, I'm interesting in it, but I didn't have this systematic approach and this vocabulary associated, like what is a low, medium, high acidity, you know, like it's basic stuff. But just the fact of putting a clear grid on what is it, it's great. It has some flaws because sometimes it's a bit too, you know, standard. but actually it helps a bit.
Speaker #1
Definitely. It's definitely one of the foundations. It builds the foundation of tasting. So after the diploma, I think I put myself into more professional fields. So then I pursued myself into course of master sommelier. So I think when I do certified, then completely advanced, so then I think it's different. different tasting methods. Of course, it's the same thing you are looking at acidity, alcohol, tannin level, or fruit profile or anything. But the way of detecting the grape variety is something really, how to say, more professional, I would say, more technical in the CMS field. WSCT, in a way, nowadays, I could understand. WSCT is more to help people understand the wine, especially the quality side. CMS called Master Sommelier is more on helping people to detect what grape varieties are vintage and from which country.
Speaker #0
You're a Master Sommelier now?
Speaker #1
I'm not yet. I'm a Master Sommelier candidate. I need more time to study on that.
Speaker #0
And so you already tried or you...
Speaker #1
I tried once last year in October in London. Okay.
Speaker #0
It takes time to be a master sommelier. A lot of people need a few tries to validate that.
Speaker #1
Yes, average, I think, need maybe five or six years to do that.
Speaker #0
Yeah. So you kind of started your career in the Emirates, professionally speaking.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
How is it to arrive in... So was it in Abu Dhabi?
Speaker #1
Yes, started in Abu Dhabi, yeah.
Speaker #0
How is it to arrive? You were like 20? 20 something, 22, 23? Yeah,
Speaker #1
20. So 20 I entered Abu Dhabi. So it's, yeah, it's interesting because people sometimes say, oh, how did you study wine in Middle East? That's always a question I get. So after hospitality management, so I think one of the key tourism is that time in the Middle East. So I'll never be there. So for girls, I think it's always great to see the world, to see it. here I also again need to appreciate my parents so they really support me to let me go out so to see different worlds yeah plus for them it's not easy to see their girl going to the Middle East you know alone at 20 or something yeah and so you you start as a sommelier yeah assistant oh I started with actually management trainee just the trainee so working in the restaurants okay and then you go to Dubai yeah then Go to Dubai. So like four years time in Abu Dhabi, then four years time in Dubai.
Speaker #0
Okay. And you were living in Abu Dhabi and then in Dubai?
Speaker #1
Yeah. It's two different companies. Emirates Palace was my first job. So of course, we stayed in Abu Dhabi for four years. But that time, especially for my WSE level three, the courses are happening in Dubai. So basically, I need to travel every week to do the courses. Then after Abu Dhabi, then I moved myself into Dubai. So of course, I just stayed in Dubai. Okay.
Speaker #0
And so how was it being a sommelier in Dubai?
Speaker #1
Very interesting, actually. So as I mentioned, 14 sommeliers, right? We have a group of 14 sommeliers. I still remember when I received the message from the head sommelier of Burj Arab. So the first question he was asking me, do you feel comfortable to work with 13 men? So during the time, I mean, back to... 10 years so very rare they have a girl female sommelier very rare mostly they are gentlemen but men so I feel it's okay I mean I didn't think of something you really need to put the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the female so the way I told him I think it's it's maybe feel more lucky because I have people to look after right so then I answered so you Again, it's end of day, I feel. It's really with all our 11 boys, they don't have more. We have two more girls joining as well. So our team members are really working like a family and really like brothers, sisters. We help each other. And especially, you know, in Belgium, all the restaurants, if I'm in any restaurant, we do a split shift. So you have lunch shift, you have dinner shift. So most of our time, we're working two shifts. So basically, all of us, you arrive in the hotel probably 11 o'clock a.m. or 12. So then, of course, you do your medicine plus, then you start your operation at 12. Of course, you have breathing and so on. So when the lunch operation finishes around 3 or 3.30, so between 3.30, for example, until your 5.30 or 6 o'clock, your dinner operation, so the two and a half hour gap there. So, of course, sometimes you need to walk on to... you put all the wines back in your cellar, you make sure you have some extra storage, or you have some admin paperwork. But again, you always have some certain times, these two and a half hours, you are free. So what we do is we have a lot of... private rooms of restaurants. So we grab our book, study materials. So then we go to that private and we study together. Of course, sometimes we organize a lot of tastings in Birch. So every day, one week or maybe two weeks time, you always can get winemakers or the sales director or any ambassador they come to Dubai. So they organize a masterclass for all the shops. So see, I mean, the work... Work life and study life is basically combined. So great. I miss the time over there, actually, really a lot.
Speaker #0
Yeah, it looks like a time when you had the opportunity to kind of mix things, learn a lot. It's great that you have this in between your service, because a lot of people actually complain that between the services, there is nothing to do. And then, you know, you just waste like three hours, can't go home. just do something because sure in Dubai there is like the time you take the car get to a place and then come back then it's been three hours Bourj Al Arab is one of the most iconic and luxurious hotel in the world so like you said it's a seven stars well they looks like they've decided themselves to award the seven stars so like I'm not sure there is a proper ranking for the number of stars but But anyway, it's like one of the, probably the most luxurious hotel. Have you seen, like, does it change that much working for such a high level hotel than working here? For example, here it's like five stars, Palace as well.
Speaker #1
You are absolutely right. There's no proper ranking for border up as a seven star. So it's actually... But the Bojahrabi, if you go to the entrance, it's still a five-star hotel. Why it comes to seven? Because one of the English journalists, they came to Birch, they stayed with us. Then after he departed back to London, so he wrote a very big article saying that the experience, the services he received is over five stars. So he thinks that is a seven-star service. That time it's really like seven to one, like seven stars looking after one guest. I mean, that kind of ratio. So that's how the seven star hotel comes from. There's another joke saying that actually in entire Burj Al Arab, we use the 49 tons of gold. So when you go to the toilet, there are some corners, it's always with gold flakes. It's real gold. So it's like they said it's around 49 tons. So then when the Emirates Palace built after, so actually in Emirates Palace, it was talking about 50 something, 56 or something, 56 tons of gold. That's why there's always say Emirates Palace like A-star hotel. But again, no proper rank, but in a way. Here in Macau, so our Grand Lisbon Palace result, we are also very special. We are the only hotel in the world. Because we have three hotels combined. The Karl Lagerfeld is where we are standing. We have the Plaza of Versace Macau. So it's next door. And of course, we have the main building, the Gran Lisboa Palace. So all three hotels have received five-star Forbes. I think it's really one of the only ones, I should say, in the world. And also, all the hotels, we have two Michelin keys. So, I mean, in Macau, we really... also looking for seek for the excellence on different channel of course in the service and in Macau I would say in Asia we care service more than anyone else it's the same thing we and demanding or you will say the guest expectation is not going to lower than any other else it's always super high yeah
Speaker #0
and Chinese hospitality in general is known to be to be amazing when you go to to hotels uh, In China, it's amazing. So right now, you are managing the wine and beverage selection for all the restaurants of these three hotels.
Speaker #1
Yes, we are actually an SGM group. So we have here, we have Grand Lisboa Palace Resort that combines three hotels we just mentioned. We also have Grand Lisboa, which is in the Macau side.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
And we also have another hotel called The Luck, which we just purchased recently. So all those are under SGM Group. So we are like a kind of corporate looking after all the wines and beverages.
Speaker #0
And so how many restaurants?
Speaker #1
In this building, in Grand Lisboa Palace Resort, we have around 33 outlets. And of course, plus Grand Lisboa, we have additional like 10. And The Luck, maybe around five. So everything added together, it's around 70.
Speaker #0
Okay. And so it must be a lot of different staff to train, a lot of different SKUs. So I guess, does the wine selection change depending on where you are in the group?
Speaker #1
Yes. We are holding the largest wine selection in Asia. So we have around 17,000 SKUs. Not talking about bottle labels.
Speaker #0
17,000?
Speaker #1
17,000, yes. So then, of course, different restaurants will be slightly different with the Wine by the Glass program. For example, now we're in Mesa. Mesa is more Portuguese. So we actually created another 100% Portuguese wine list only for these restaurants. And of course, we have more Versace. So it's Italian cuisine, Italian style. So we more on Italian wines. And then we have Palace Garden. So more on the Chinese Cantonese. So we get more focus on French.
Speaker #0
Hmm. How do you manage 17,000
Speaker #1
SKUs? It's not only one person. It definitely needs a lot of teamwork. So we have different teams. For example, Granite Sport, we have a Granite Sport team. We used to have three 590 restaurants over there. Here we have four 590 restaurants over here. So team adds up together, it's around 14 people. Again, 14.
Speaker #0
And do you still serve clients or are you more focused on managing the team, managing the SKUs, training the team to sell the wine?
Speaker #1
I would say both, but now I spend a slightly less time on the floor. That's yes, but I really miss a lot. Admin work will be a bit more overloaded. Of course, we still have two projects on the pipeline, so working on that too. But we have a lot of wine dinners happening. For example, the year of 2026, we have organized around 12 to 14 wine dinners in the entire year of 2026. So like every one month, we have one dinner. So that needs a lot of coordination too. And then all those wine dinners or VIP guest events we have, I always be with them until the last moment. Yeah.
Speaker #0
Okay. And so considering that you have 70... restaurants uh working uh like together do you like do you still manage to buy some low volumes here and there or when you buy a wine it must be like a gigantic orders for for people so do you still manage to work like with small estates and you know to try to identify really niche things or do you try to just bulk buy uh we prefer niche
Speaker #1
I would say that because our, yes, we have 17,000 labels. So we have a lot of focus on the big brands, of course, the more popular. But now the market is changing a bit. Of course, demanding on the niche and boutique wineries are even higher and higher. So we do focus on those as well, especially in the Grand Lisbon Palace results here. We more focus on, for example, even the Gros-Royal Champagne, for sure. We have a lot of smaller Gros-Royal Champagne and they are more like on. allocation style and of course big brand we also do but won't be very like a booker in a large volume purchase so it's more on we observe the market and see how well the demand is and so you you are responsible for for this as well yeah of course together with the team so because who understand the guest most is actually the person who working on the floor every day so I always listen to this advice or suggestion from all the team members.
Speaker #0
What's the type of people who come here?
Speaker #1
Type of people? How to say that? Macau is a gaming hospitality-driven. So because we all follow the government and also ourselves as well, so we're trying to promote as much as we can with non-gaming elements, for example, food and beverage. Especially, I mean, in Granite Spot Palace, we focus more. on food and beverage. So to provide the service or provide the best wine, our guest clientele is more on foodies and who's really loving the wine. And one thing to mention is in our, in SGM, so we are trying to have a very reasonable selling price in our wine list. So if you check out our wine list, you will see most of the wine that you may find is quite, quite close to retail price or quite, quite close. I wouldn't say the same as the one in Sochi, but definitely reasonable, as we always... follow dr stanley jose that he wants every single guest come to granite's papaya comes to sgm so they can enjoy wine and food like you are actually doing at home so it's like a more homie style okay and um and yeah and so you you said that you're trying to promote more food and wine than gaming um it's definitely it's one of the key element we want to promote for sure But gaming is always, this is hospitality, right?
Speaker #0
And do you have a lot of winemakers coming here to present the wine and to show you things?
Speaker #1
We do, especially, and also we are very close to Hong Kong. So then every, this year, actually, 26th May, we have Wien Expo. So by the time we should have a lot of winemakers who would like to come to Macau to tell us a story about, of course, the winery.
Speaker #0
Will definitely be around for Vinaxpo. I think it's going to be an amazing moment for the wine industry. Yeah,
Speaker #1
and actually we have around 14 wine dinners on the way. So every wine dinner, we definitely have winery representatives, winemakers or owners are here as well to share more stories about our guests here. Of course, you know, gaming as well, wine lovers around the town.
Speaker #0
What differences do you see between Dubai and Macau?
Speaker #1
Number one, I would say the customer profile, because there is more international. So you will see a lot of European in Dubai. And after COVID, they have even more of Russians, I think, and more European people over there. But in Macau, I would say 80% is more on Chinese, other than from mainland. And some are from Hong Kong and some, of course, more. percentage of Europeans are getting smaller and smaller. Of course we have more Asia like Japan, Korea, Thailand, Southeast Asia.
Speaker #0
I see around the table that you have a lot of awards. I can see like top 100 tables, Taitler 2025. Is it something that is important to you? Do you contribute to this?
Speaker #1
It's a restaurant's effort. It's a team's effort. So that's also one of the key proof for us. We really want to do things seriously on our food and beverage. So this is the food. So, of course, linked to the restaurant of the chef. So chef is trying to contribute a lot from their side. So they will get 100 table, Tesla events, awards, and also, of course, the sea trip. So all these awards are being... it's team efforts. Wine, we have different wine awards. So we also participate Star Wine List, Wine Spectator, and also World of Fine Wine Awards. And also we do have Champagne in Asia as well. So we have different categories.
Speaker #0
One of the topics that is very important to us is Chinese wines. So, you know, we've been kind of exploring the Exploring, it's a big word, but we have started exploring Chinese wines, trying to taste, trying to go see what is happening in China. Is it something that you also push here? I mean, more Chinese wines, maybe if you have Chinese restaurants, having a bit more of wines from China? Or is it or like do you keep many international? Like what's your vision on Chinese wines?
Speaker #1
In our result, the ratio between Chinese and non-Chinese, I would say, a bit more smaller, definitely if you were compared to other results. The reason why is actually we have a very, very large wine selection, so 70% of the other. So if you're talking about like 20 or 30 Chinese, that's the ratio is really too small. and also one thing I mentioned earlier is all French wine, Italian wine, American wine, all those we actually... collected them a very long, long, long time back, like 20 years ago. So that's also the reason why our price is so reasonable for wine collectors or wine lovers to come and enjoy. So if in front of you that these wines are already high volume, too rare to try. So I think that they will always make a choice of non-Chinese. But I would definitely say Chinese wine, as I'm also Chinese, our Chinese wine, I've tasted last five to 10 years, all the different years of production. So the winemaking skills is much higher than before. And also all the wineries, they have identical style. Because in the past, if you also taste some Chinese wine, so like 10 years ago, you may taste all the wine that tastes quite similar. So they are very copy and paste. Also, not copy and paste, it's more like the style.
Speaker #0
close to Bordeaux, some are close to Burgundy. But nowadays, you can taste some of wines that are really, really interesting, linked to a terroir, linked to that piece of land. I think that's very, very important. So I would say this is really called Chinese wine. So that from that land, we find the best grape suitable for that piece of land, then make a wine. So I think this is, I definitely say Chinese wine will be one of the fascinating things coming.
Speaker #1
Yeah, 100%. amazing thing amazing things are happening in chinese wines um if i am uh so you know this podcast is um uh listened by amateurs like you know wine amateurs people who really enjoy it but it's also listened by uh professionals in the wine industry especially some students as a sommelier and also some producers so the the two questions i have for you is if i am a young sommelier Okay. like students student sommelier what would you say to them to like what would be advice for starting a good advice for starting a career in the industry for
Speaker #0
the younger sommeliers I would say be patient because sommelier career is not easy to make you get So. quick money because I mean money is one thing for a lot of people. I mean they're looking for a job, right? So maybe for a couple of first couple of years, you may look at your salary won't be that much high. You need to really put yourself down to study. You need to understand the wine, understand the tasting, understand the service. When you reach a certain point, I think that you can... we start to build your career path, then maybe you're going to have that. It's a job, I would say, need a lot of patience, need a lot of discipline, need a lot of time to settle ourselves down. Some people, they say, the first couple of years, you always study. You don't study, sometimes you feel boring. Sometimes, then you have a lot of volume, especially in front of you, you have a lot of tastings. regions and laws or great varieties you have when you see massive information in front of you need to study some people they get scared sometimes they you feel overwhelmed sometimes you feel afraid so it's it's it's normal but i see a lot of younger sommelier they start quitting they said ah this is not really food for me so maybe i'm gonna move myself into insurance i see some people are moving into maybe into um managerial that will be great if they leave the hospitality a lot of people doing this way i mean of course it's end of days everybody's choice but i mean if you're one person when you settle yourself with a goal to be sommelier and to be in the hospitality industry you need to start accepting first that this is a different role i mean this role will be full of difficulties or that you need to face and to solve the problem but please believe end of the day for sure you will see a bright bright um yourself and bright future too um and same question but more for wine producers so
Speaker #1
if i am a wine producer in europe for example in france or in italy or something turns out i'm doing kind of good wines but i want you to to discover them and to bring them on the list here. What should I do?
Speaker #0
We're happy to do a tasting together. And of course, we're together with the sommelier team, so we can taste together and see how the wine that goes to particular restaurants. Because at the end of the day, it's food and wine pairing together, right? So it's always need to have a match. So then let's see if these winemakers, does he has already the... a collaborative vendor or distributor in Hong Kong and Macau if yes much easier if not we can start helping them to find a distributor responsible for them so then the procurement process is following okay so the you
Speaker #1
would say the first step is actually come here and just reach out to you to the hotel to like whatever and try to meet you and bring you
Speaker #0
bring a bit of butters to yeah to tell the story and maybe the philosophy that you really carry on and of course at the end of the day it's the glass matter yeah makes sense um
Speaker #1
I think we've covered a lot into what you're doing. Is there things we didn't mention?
Speaker #0
I think we covered everything, yeah.
Speaker #1
For the... I have a question about actually about here, about the Karl Lagerfeld Hotel. How did it... Like, it's the first time I hear about the Karl Lagerfeld Hotel. How did it happen?
Speaker #0
This hotel is designed by Karl Lagerfeld. It has been designed by him? Yes. So if you pass by the ground floor, you will see the book lounge. So that's because he loves books. And whenever you go, all the different... Actually, the color tone here is more on the black, gold, and red. This is the color he likes. And actually, everything is designed by him. But unfortunately, he designed everything, but he couldn't see it as well. So as you may know, he passed away in 2019.
Speaker #1
He passed away before the opening of the hotel?
Speaker #0
We opened this hall during COVID times, 2021 July. So two years before he passed away.
Speaker #1
Oh, wow.
Speaker #0
But every single corner, it's actually designed by him.
Speaker #1
Oh, wow.
Speaker #0
So we are one and only.
Speaker #1
Yeah, actually, you know, when I've seen that, I was like, I don't know, Karl Lagerfeld, what is it? And I thought it would be like, you know, he licensed his name and that's it. I actually didn't know he would design everything around here. We'll have a tour of the ground floor because we went through some elevators to arrive here, but we'll go to the ground floor to see the bookshelves. Great. How is it to study for a master's summary? I don't want to put some pressure, but...
Speaker #0
Well, I hear this is already with the pressure, actually. I'm trying to level up. So I'm... uh as i said i actually tried myself last year as well in october um i think it's very important to put yourself on a trial because every time when i hear from my friends from people who pass exam they're always going to tell you that there's certain things you need to face but when you're really sitting in the exam uh the the pressure or the amount of studies and also the angle of questions. So these, I think you will understand more. So after that exam, I... understand more on the question and of course more on the level of the master sommelier is looking for. So on this I think I'm quite clear. But the one another thing is the information is massive. So you just mentioned wine laws then wine regions, sub-regions and of course different percentage of alcohol or different percentage of sugar, whatever. So all those you have to understand and memorize them. Especially my workload is a bit I sometimes need to manage my workload. So then I always say time, you need to try to squeeze the time for your own style of study. As I mentioned earlier as well, actually, every day morning, I try to wake up at 6.30 in the morning. So the first two hours for me is really, my brain is much more clear and sharp. After that, if I'm moving to my separate, 9 o'clock, I'm already in here. I'm already in hotels doing some work. start my morning briefing and of course, eventually all the works and meetings and so on. So sometimes my job finished by 10. Sometimes with VIP events or wine dinners, most probably finish one or two. So during all the meetings, I think trying level best to see if I can squeeze that 15 minutes or five minutes just to go through the questions. It's very hard. I mean, for piece of advice for people, whoever wants to go for master's level exam, you need to really understand your Your timing and, of course, your discipline and, of course, your level of managing your own things. Of course, you need to manage your work, your family and yourself, of course. But again, I think it's a job, it's an exam to teach us how to be a better person. I think in terms of discipline, in terms of the level of time and effort you put in, definitely develop.
Speaker #1
for sure once you pass well i i wish you the best uh for this example how are you gonna make it um and yeah it looks like uh it looks like something uh really uh really huge in terms of workload and and commitment um and then what like what would be the difference for you if
Speaker #0
tomorrow you're master sommelier like will it change what does it change in your life um that's also not a good question so um i think The personally or professionally into the work, I think Master Sommelier title. Definitely going to bring a lot of windows. Of course, that brings number one, the credibility that people are looking at you. For example, when you are talking about a glass of water or a glass of wine, as a master sommelier, when you tell them something about a story about tasty notes, they may look differently from guest's point of view. So I think that definitely going to help to build up. personal, I would say, professionalism image. That would be definitely a key thing. But when talking about the personality, I would say hard work pays off because you really put a lot of time and effort, discipline and commitment to it, then you deserve that title. So for the personal, I would say, you can always tell yourself, wow, you did a good job. That's one key thing for being a personal. But along with all those, I think, again, you need to come up with responsibilities. So when you're being a master sommelier, like I see Pierre-Marie, I see Ronan, they're always helping the younger generation to set up a new standard, to set up the way of learning and the level of service and the level of tasting. So these are all along with responsibilities. It's not only you pass and today it's finished. You'd have to embrace the... community and also the industry people.
Speaker #1
You know, I interviewed a few years ago Pascaline Le Pelletier, who is France's best sommelier in, I don't know which year, and she represented France in a world-best sommelier. She finished second twice, things like that. She works in New York. And she told me something very inspiring in that, so, you know, she's, I don't know how to say, but like it's a title in France. It's like best, best worker in France in sommelier. And so she can have blue, white, red collar, you know, from France. And she was like, the day I feel I don't deserve this anymore, I won't wear it anymore. And like, it's not because I won one year in my life that I can wear that for the rest of my life without like continuing working and improving and bringing things to people, bringing the wine industry to a next step. And I think it was super inspiring because more personally speaking, at that time, I was training for a marathon. And I was like, you know what, I do a marathon, then I can say I did a marathon and it's okay. But then talking to her, I realized that It's worth nothing if I can't continue to have such an achievement in my life. Like running a marathon once is great, but being able to run it whenever you want in your life is something else. Like it's really another level. I'm not saying I could run a marathon tomorrow, but you know what I mean? Like you continue to deserve the award you acquired or the diploma you acquired.
Speaker #0
Wow, that's... That's so inspiring, actually. So actually, it reminds me of another person, Roberto. He just passed his master's somewhere last year. So this January, I was in Singapore. So he opened a new wine room called Temper in Singapore. So, of course, I said, I want to go there to have a look. It's a new wine lounge. Then I wanted to text him that I'm going to that Temper. So most probably we can meet up. So then the... In the message, he told me, I said, ah, where are you? He said, ah, I'm actually home doing study. So he took a picture of that page. It's about Chile. So he's really studying. I said, oh, wow, you're doing studies. He said, yes. So he's trying to maintain that, you know, he's already master of something. He expects the people's expectation to him. That makes me feel like I was super inspiring that when people reach the title, but he still continues study. F Something I really admire.
Speaker #1
That's impressive. Thank you very much, Winnie, for all this. It was an amazing discussion. Thank you very much for helping us discover this Karl Lagerfeld Hotel and this atmosphere. I think there is good learning in your career as a sommelier. And also, I hope it will inspire a younger generation listening to that and having a first glimpse in... What does it look like after what's been 10 years? Basically, you're working maybe a bit less in the industry.
Speaker #0
Now, 13 years.
Speaker #1
13 years. Okay, so a bit more than 10 years. So it's a good view for people projecting into what's going to be the first 10 years of my career. So that's amazing. And thank you for sharing this journey. I have three last questions that are pretty traditional in this podcast. the first thing is is do you have a book recommendation about wine in preference?
Speaker #0
Yes, I actually do have two books to recommend. One about viticulture and one about vinification. So maybe for some people, they feel it's quite a boring book, but it's really for me to understand quickly about viticulture and vinification. That's the two really books I really love. One is for viticulture and understand wines. And also another one is called Understand the Wine Technology, written by Mr. David Bird. So that's one of the very old books, but I think it's still available to find. But it's really, he's trying to use some simple wording to help you understand winemaking techniques. So for that two books, I highly recommend.
Speaker #1
Great. We'll put link in the description if you want to find it. Do you have a recent tasting that you loved? like a A wine that you tasted recently that was nice?
Speaker #0
Wow, that's a very good question. Recently, maybe yesterday, we were much more closer. So yesterday, I tasted some wine that was actually made by Michel Chapetier. He has a new project in Portugal. So the wine was from Portugal. The white and red for me is like something interesting. The Torreganese makes me feel like, wow, it's something with a lot of French touch. It's very elegant. So I think it's something to recommend. It's not high-end, but it's beautiful.
Speaker #1
Amazing. And we salute Michel Chaptier. He was one of the first person to come on the podcast.
Speaker #0
Oh, yeah.
Speaker #1
But it's in French. It was at the time we were doing in French, but actually it was one of the first interviews I did. And it was an amazing discussion. I think I learned loads of things with this interview. And he was very into sharing. And we should do a new interview, but in English. next time we see him actually I don't know if he speaks super well English we'll see I guess he speaks well English but yeah very nice guy and he kind of contributed to starting this podcast and finally who is the next person we should interview?
Speaker #0
I'm thinking Fennel Mark Fennel is now the head sommelier for Alan Dukas in COD City of Dreams so I think Fennel I knew him as a very good friend. So sometimes we actually study together, doing a lot of questionnaires. So of course, we threw video calls too. He's a very disciplined person as well, very hardworking. And he's very, very professional into his own world. And of course, he's also another target to help the younger generation, to help the team to grow up. So I think I recommend him.
Speaker #1
Amazing. It's based in Macau? Yes, based in Macau. That's great. It should be a good excuse to come back. Yeah, please. That's great news. Thank you very much, Winnie, for this. Thank you for sharing this. If you like this episode, if you're still here, it means that you like this episode, actually. So don't forget to share it to at least two people, maybe two people wanting to join the wine world as a sommelier or studying to become sommelier or master sommelier. Don't forget to subscribe, share, like, everything. Check the description for the elements Winnie showed to us. Come to Macau if you have the opportunity. Come to Mesa and the restaurants around here. Winnie, thanks again and see you soon.
Speaker #0
Thank you, Anouar. See you soon.
Speaker #1
Fine.
Speaker #0
Thank you.
Speaker #1
Great interview. Thanks a lot.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

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Description

In this episode, we travel to Macau to meet Winnie Chen, Assistant Director of Wine & Beverage at SJM Resorts and one of the professionals behind one of the largest wine collections in Asia.

We also discuss the evolution of the Macau wine market, the rise of Chinese wines, how massive wine programs are curated, and Winnie’s advice for young sommeliers dreaming of entering the industry.

▬▬ 🎁 GIFTS 🎁 ▬▬

📚 Understanding Wine Technology: The Science of Wine Explained, by David Bird

👀 Discover more about:

🤓 Learn all you need to know about wine with Wine 101, the ultimate online course

🎁 Get your wine essentials on our shop: a curated selection of wine glasses, posters and much more

▬▬ ⭐️ ABOUT ⭐️ ▬▬

ALCOHOL ABUSE IS DANGEROUS FOUR YOUR HEALTH. CONSUME IN MODERATION.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
Hi Winnie.
Speaker #1
Hi Antoine.
Speaker #0
Thank you very much for welcoming us here. So we are in the Karl Lagerfeld Hotel and in Mesa, which is one of the restaurants you're managing here, for the wine you're managing here. Before starting, I need to thank Pierre-Marie. So Pierre-Marie Patuay in a previous episode put us in relationship. At the end, I always ask, who is the next person I show in interview? And without hesitating, he said you need to talk to Winnie in Macau. So thank you very much, Pierre-Marie for this We'll talk a lot about the Macau market and the context here. But before, can you start by introducing yourself?
Speaker #1
Sure. Thank you, Antoine. Thank you, Pianahi. I think it's given me a great opportunity here to share my thoughts. So my name is Winnie. I'm Chinese. I'm actually 100% made in China. And right now I'm working in this hotel, which basically results at Gran Lisboa Palace, or I should say SJM Group, as assistant for the beverage director, looking after wine and beverages. So how I started my career, as I always say, it's a wonderful journey. Actually, I graduated in 2010. So I started my management training in... Hakkasan restaurant, actually based in Abu Dhabi. Now it's Emirates Palace. So it's a Chinese restaurant. It's also a Michelin one-star restaurant. So as a management training, so basically we started with everything on the floor. So then comes to wine, was actually another interesting story. So we often have trainings going through. So one day the hotel sommelier, his name is Anand Dukuma. So he organized... tasting and organize the training for every people i mean all the employees in the in the restaurant so the topic is about the lua valley so for me that's one of the magical lesson um why i say that because i'm growing up in a very very traditional family so in china most of us we never drink alcohol before we turn 18 so because you are not adults so you won't touch any alcohol and then that tasting or that training basically i don't really taste anything For me, it's really like alcohol.
Speaker #0
When was it? You were like 18?
Speaker #1
That time I was 21 already. 21. The tasting was, it's not about tasting for me on the first lesson, but it's all about the culture and about the, especially the diverse different style of the wine in that region of Luoyang. It's very, very huge. It keeps in my mind, it's 1,100 kilometers of long river, but you can really divide it into four regions. And each different region, you know, many different LLCs are different styles. And then the culture left behind. So these are making me feel very, very interested. So then after first lesson, they move on to the second one. So it's a weekly training. So then slowly, naturally, I moved myself into WSET. So my first WSET Level 1 was completed in 2012. So then I would say a bit greedy or I would say a bit ambitious is when I'm doing Level 1, I was thinking I should do Level 2. So when I was doing Level 2, I'm actually thinking to do Level 3. So it's really like, because the knowledge really for me is a very, very, I would say curiosity that brings me there. So I passed my WSJ diploma in 2018. So I think completely into six years. And of course, Hakka-san gave me the first lesson. And after that, I advanced myself into Dubai. So it's another international city. So Dubai, I entered a hotel called Bojahrab. It's a cell-shaped, so seven-star hotel. We have a group of 14 sommeliers. Until now, we still have a group. We're chatting, not every day, but we do time by time. So we missed the time we actually worked together. So 14 sommeliers in that time, I mean, during 2015 time, it's a very big group. And we overlook 1,200 SKUs, I mean, different labels. I think I studied myself, I mean, how to say, I deepened myself into more on seller management, of course, more on guest experience, especially international clientele. So I completed the bird job in 2019. So after that, it was COVID. So I put myself back to mainland China. So I joined the Granite Spa Palace in 2021. I started my first job here. It's actually Rizal Health Somalia. Then within a couple of years, so I acquired it. I built my own career, so now I'm actually assistant food and beverage director on wine and beverages. So not only wine, of course, beverages, everything's in one plate.
Speaker #0
So you mentioned this first tasting as something revelatory for you, like this is actually what I want to do in my life and deepen my knowledge into that. What were you studying at the time? So you were 21? One.
Speaker #1
Well,
Speaker #0
you was. studying what like hospitality already or hospitality management yes and when you when you told your family actually i want to work in the in the wine industry how did they react my mom says no until
Speaker #1
now she she still sometimes she doesn't accept myself i mean as a girl then she says i'm i'm into myself into this career she still say don't drink too much you know And I was like, okay, okay. But my father actually, in a way, both of them, they support me a lot. Without them, I won't be here. Because, you know, Chinese sometimes are very family-driven. And I'm the only child, so they want me to be around with them. But until now, they give me a lot of support that let me be free and study and, of course, working.
Speaker #0
Okay. And so when you have this first tasting, What is your next step? Is that basically you, so you enjoy it, you realize that wine industry has a lot to offer, then you go see your teachers and you're like, how can I go deeper into it?
Speaker #1
That's an interesting question. Actually, the first class doesn't bring me too much into that. I say, ah, okay, that will be the first, that decides my career. I think at that moment, I put myself into... hospitality management, but rather than specific into wine and beverage or so on. So that time, I think when you were young, I think you probably have a better memory. So then after first lesson, of course, the teacher is going to give you a lot of study material, so you need to go to home and study. But that time, I think one week after, beginning of the second class, the teacher will start asking everybody about questions from the previous lesson. So that time, I think the memory was very good. So they were asking questions so I could answer them. Even that time, I would say I have so much understanding about it. Because for me, that's really completely a new era, new world. So by the, I mean, the head sommelier of the hotel, he encouraged me very much, a lot. Even from WCT1 until WCT level 4. So he constantly encouraged me that you can do it, you can do it. And I see without his encouragement, I won't do that much faster from one to four. If you want to tell, I think I start get the tasting skills more or less when I finish the level two of WCT. That you have really understanding about the wine tasting profile. So that takes me a little bit long time. I always look back and say, I drink very much late. the But I get that kind of, I miss the time, I would say.
Speaker #0
No, WST is a great school of learning how to technically taste wine. Because, you know, you have this very systematic way of tasting the different parts. For me, it was very interesting as well because, you know, obviously I taste wine, I'm interesting in it, but I didn't have this systematic approach and this vocabulary associated, like what is a low, medium, high acidity, you know, like it's basic stuff. But just the fact of putting a clear grid on what is it, it's great. It has some flaws because sometimes it's a bit too, you know, standard. but actually it helps a bit.
Speaker #1
Definitely. It's definitely one of the foundations. It builds the foundation of tasting. So after the diploma, I think I put myself into more professional fields. So then I pursued myself into course of master sommelier. So I think when I do certified, then completely advanced, so then I think it's different. different tasting methods. Of course, it's the same thing you are looking at acidity, alcohol, tannin level, or fruit profile or anything. But the way of detecting the grape variety is something really, how to say, more professional, I would say, more technical in the CMS field. WSCT, in a way, nowadays, I could understand. WSCT is more to help people understand the wine, especially the quality side. CMS called Master Sommelier is more on helping people to detect what grape varieties are vintage and from which country.
Speaker #0
You're a Master Sommelier now?
Speaker #1
I'm not yet. I'm a Master Sommelier candidate. I need more time to study on that.
Speaker #0
And so you already tried or you...
Speaker #1
I tried once last year in October in London. Okay.
Speaker #0
It takes time to be a master sommelier. A lot of people need a few tries to validate that.
Speaker #1
Yes, average, I think, need maybe five or six years to do that.
Speaker #0
Yeah. So you kind of started your career in the Emirates, professionally speaking.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
How is it to arrive in... So was it in Abu Dhabi?
Speaker #1
Yes, started in Abu Dhabi, yeah.
Speaker #0
How is it to arrive? You were like 20? 20 something, 22, 23? Yeah,
Speaker #1
20. So 20 I entered Abu Dhabi. So it's, yeah, it's interesting because people sometimes say, oh, how did you study wine in Middle East? That's always a question I get. So after hospitality management, so I think one of the key tourism is that time in the Middle East. So I'll never be there. So for girls, I think it's always great to see the world, to see it. here I also again need to appreciate my parents so they really support me to let me go out so to see different worlds yeah plus for them it's not easy to see their girl going to the Middle East you know alone at 20 or something yeah and so you you start as a sommelier yeah assistant oh I started with actually management trainee just the trainee so working in the restaurants okay and then you go to Dubai yeah then Go to Dubai. So like four years time in Abu Dhabi, then four years time in Dubai.
Speaker #0
Okay. And you were living in Abu Dhabi and then in Dubai?
Speaker #1
Yeah. It's two different companies. Emirates Palace was my first job. So of course, we stayed in Abu Dhabi for four years. But that time, especially for my WSE level three, the courses are happening in Dubai. So basically, I need to travel every week to do the courses. Then after Abu Dhabi, then I moved myself into Dubai. So of course, I just stayed in Dubai. Okay.
Speaker #0
And so how was it being a sommelier in Dubai?
Speaker #1
Very interesting, actually. So as I mentioned, 14 sommeliers, right? We have a group of 14 sommeliers. I still remember when I received the message from the head sommelier of Burj Arab. So the first question he was asking me, do you feel comfortable to work with 13 men? So during the time, I mean, back to... 10 years so very rare they have a girl female sommelier very rare mostly they are gentlemen but men so I feel it's okay I mean I didn't think of something you really need to put the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the female so the way I told him I think it's it's maybe feel more lucky because I have people to look after right so then I answered so you Again, it's end of day, I feel. It's really with all our 11 boys, they don't have more. We have two more girls joining as well. So our team members are really working like a family and really like brothers, sisters. We help each other. And especially, you know, in Belgium, all the restaurants, if I'm in any restaurant, we do a split shift. So you have lunch shift, you have dinner shift. So most of our time, we're working two shifts. So basically, all of us, you arrive in the hotel probably 11 o'clock a.m. or 12. So then, of course, you do your medicine plus, then you start your operation at 12. Of course, you have breathing and so on. So when the lunch operation finishes around 3 or 3.30, so between 3.30, for example, until your 5.30 or 6 o'clock, your dinner operation, so the two and a half hour gap there. So, of course, sometimes you need to walk on to... you put all the wines back in your cellar, you make sure you have some extra storage, or you have some admin paperwork. But again, you always have some certain times, these two and a half hours, you are free. So what we do is we have a lot of... private rooms of restaurants. So we grab our book, study materials. So then we go to that private and we study together. Of course, sometimes we organize a lot of tastings in Birch. So every day, one week or maybe two weeks time, you always can get winemakers or the sales director or any ambassador they come to Dubai. So they organize a masterclass for all the shops. So see, I mean, the work... Work life and study life is basically combined. So great. I miss the time over there, actually, really a lot.
Speaker #0
Yeah, it looks like a time when you had the opportunity to kind of mix things, learn a lot. It's great that you have this in between your service, because a lot of people actually complain that between the services, there is nothing to do. And then, you know, you just waste like three hours, can't go home. just do something because sure in Dubai there is like the time you take the car get to a place and then come back then it's been three hours Bourj Al Arab is one of the most iconic and luxurious hotel in the world so like you said it's a seven stars well they looks like they've decided themselves to award the seven stars so like I'm not sure there is a proper ranking for the number of stars but But anyway, it's like one of the, probably the most luxurious hotel. Have you seen, like, does it change that much working for such a high level hotel than working here? For example, here it's like five stars, Palace as well.
Speaker #1
You are absolutely right. There's no proper ranking for border up as a seven star. So it's actually... But the Bojahrabi, if you go to the entrance, it's still a five-star hotel. Why it comes to seven? Because one of the English journalists, they came to Birch, they stayed with us. Then after he departed back to London, so he wrote a very big article saying that the experience, the services he received is over five stars. So he thinks that is a seven-star service. That time it's really like seven to one, like seven stars looking after one guest. I mean, that kind of ratio. So that's how the seven star hotel comes from. There's another joke saying that actually in entire Burj Al Arab, we use the 49 tons of gold. So when you go to the toilet, there are some corners, it's always with gold flakes. It's real gold. So it's like they said it's around 49 tons. So then when the Emirates Palace built after, so actually in Emirates Palace, it was talking about 50 something, 56 or something, 56 tons of gold. That's why there's always say Emirates Palace like A-star hotel. But again, no proper rank, but in a way. Here in Macau, so our Grand Lisbon Palace result, we are also very special. We are the only hotel in the world. Because we have three hotels combined. The Karl Lagerfeld is where we are standing. We have the Plaza of Versace Macau. So it's next door. And of course, we have the main building, the Gran Lisboa Palace. So all three hotels have received five-star Forbes. I think it's really one of the only ones, I should say, in the world. And also, all the hotels, we have two Michelin keys. So, I mean, in Macau, we really... also looking for seek for the excellence on different channel of course in the service and in Macau I would say in Asia we care service more than anyone else it's the same thing we and demanding or you will say the guest expectation is not going to lower than any other else it's always super high yeah
Speaker #0
and Chinese hospitality in general is known to be to be amazing when you go to to hotels uh, In China, it's amazing. So right now, you are managing the wine and beverage selection for all the restaurants of these three hotels.
Speaker #1
Yes, we are actually an SGM group. So we have here, we have Grand Lisboa Palace Resort that combines three hotels we just mentioned. We also have Grand Lisboa, which is in the Macau side.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
And we also have another hotel called The Luck, which we just purchased recently. So all those are under SGM Group. So we are like a kind of corporate looking after all the wines and beverages.
Speaker #0
And so how many restaurants?
Speaker #1
In this building, in Grand Lisboa Palace Resort, we have around 33 outlets. And of course, plus Grand Lisboa, we have additional like 10. And The Luck, maybe around five. So everything added together, it's around 70.
Speaker #0
Okay. And so it must be a lot of different staff to train, a lot of different SKUs. So I guess, does the wine selection change depending on where you are in the group?
Speaker #1
Yes. We are holding the largest wine selection in Asia. So we have around 17,000 SKUs. Not talking about bottle labels.
Speaker #0
17,000?
Speaker #1
17,000, yes. So then, of course, different restaurants will be slightly different with the Wine by the Glass program. For example, now we're in Mesa. Mesa is more Portuguese. So we actually created another 100% Portuguese wine list only for these restaurants. And of course, we have more Versace. So it's Italian cuisine, Italian style. So we more on Italian wines. And then we have Palace Garden. So more on the Chinese Cantonese. So we get more focus on French.
Speaker #0
Hmm. How do you manage 17,000
Speaker #1
SKUs? It's not only one person. It definitely needs a lot of teamwork. So we have different teams. For example, Granite Sport, we have a Granite Sport team. We used to have three 590 restaurants over there. Here we have four 590 restaurants over here. So team adds up together, it's around 14 people. Again, 14.
Speaker #0
And do you still serve clients or are you more focused on managing the team, managing the SKUs, training the team to sell the wine?
Speaker #1
I would say both, but now I spend a slightly less time on the floor. That's yes, but I really miss a lot. Admin work will be a bit more overloaded. Of course, we still have two projects on the pipeline, so working on that too. But we have a lot of wine dinners happening. For example, the year of 2026, we have organized around 12 to 14 wine dinners in the entire year of 2026. So like every one month, we have one dinner. So that needs a lot of coordination too. And then all those wine dinners or VIP guest events we have, I always be with them until the last moment. Yeah.
Speaker #0
Okay. And so considering that you have 70... restaurants uh working uh like together do you like do you still manage to buy some low volumes here and there or when you buy a wine it must be like a gigantic orders for for people so do you still manage to work like with small estates and you know to try to identify really niche things or do you try to just bulk buy uh we prefer niche
Speaker #1
I would say that because our, yes, we have 17,000 labels. So we have a lot of focus on the big brands, of course, the more popular. But now the market is changing a bit. Of course, demanding on the niche and boutique wineries are even higher and higher. So we do focus on those as well, especially in the Grand Lisbon Palace results here. We more focus on, for example, even the Gros-Royal Champagne, for sure. We have a lot of smaller Gros-Royal Champagne and they are more like on. allocation style and of course big brand we also do but won't be very like a booker in a large volume purchase so it's more on we observe the market and see how well the demand is and so you you are responsible for for this as well yeah of course together with the team so because who understand the guest most is actually the person who working on the floor every day so I always listen to this advice or suggestion from all the team members.
Speaker #0
What's the type of people who come here?
Speaker #1
Type of people? How to say that? Macau is a gaming hospitality-driven. So because we all follow the government and also ourselves as well, so we're trying to promote as much as we can with non-gaming elements, for example, food and beverage. Especially, I mean, in Granite Spot Palace, we focus more. on food and beverage. So to provide the service or provide the best wine, our guest clientele is more on foodies and who's really loving the wine. And one thing to mention is in our, in SGM, so we are trying to have a very reasonable selling price in our wine list. So if you check out our wine list, you will see most of the wine that you may find is quite, quite close to retail price or quite, quite close. I wouldn't say the same as the one in Sochi, but definitely reasonable, as we always... follow dr stanley jose that he wants every single guest come to granite's papaya comes to sgm so they can enjoy wine and food like you are actually doing at home so it's like a more homie style okay and um and yeah and so you you said that you're trying to promote more food and wine than gaming um it's definitely it's one of the key element we want to promote for sure But gaming is always, this is hospitality, right?
Speaker #0
And do you have a lot of winemakers coming here to present the wine and to show you things?
Speaker #1
We do, especially, and also we are very close to Hong Kong. So then every, this year, actually, 26th May, we have Wien Expo. So by the time we should have a lot of winemakers who would like to come to Macau to tell us a story about, of course, the winery.
Speaker #0
Will definitely be around for Vinaxpo. I think it's going to be an amazing moment for the wine industry. Yeah,
Speaker #1
and actually we have around 14 wine dinners on the way. So every wine dinner, we definitely have winery representatives, winemakers or owners are here as well to share more stories about our guests here. Of course, you know, gaming as well, wine lovers around the town.
Speaker #0
What differences do you see between Dubai and Macau?
Speaker #1
Number one, I would say the customer profile, because there is more international. So you will see a lot of European in Dubai. And after COVID, they have even more of Russians, I think, and more European people over there. But in Macau, I would say 80% is more on Chinese, other than from mainland. And some are from Hong Kong and some, of course, more. percentage of Europeans are getting smaller and smaller. Of course we have more Asia like Japan, Korea, Thailand, Southeast Asia.
Speaker #0
I see around the table that you have a lot of awards. I can see like top 100 tables, Taitler 2025. Is it something that is important to you? Do you contribute to this?
Speaker #1
It's a restaurant's effort. It's a team's effort. So that's also one of the key proof for us. We really want to do things seriously on our food and beverage. So this is the food. So, of course, linked to the restaurant of the chef. So chef is trying to contribute a lot from their side. So they will get 100 table, Tesla events, awards, and also, of course, the sea trip. So all these awards are being... it's team efforts. Wine, we have different wine awards. So we also participate Star Wine List, Wine Spectator, and also World of Fine Wine Awards. And also we do have Champagne in Asia as well. So we have different categories.
Speaker #0
One of the topics that is very important to us is Chinese wines. So, you know, we've been kind of exploring the Exploring, it's a big word, but we have started exploring Chinese wines, trying to taste, trying to go see what is happening in China. Is it something that you also push here? I mean, more Chinese wines, maybe if you have Chinese restaurants, having a bit more of wines from China? Or is it or like do you keep many international? Like what's your vision on Chinese wines?
Speaker #1
In our result, the ratio between Chinese and non-Chinese, I would say, a bit more smaller, definitely if you were compared to other results. The reason why is actually we have a very, very large wine selection, so 70% of the other. So if you're talking about like 20 or 30 Chinese, that's the ratio is really too small. and also one thing I mentioned earlier is all French wine, Italian wine, American wine, all those we actually... collected them a very long, long, long time back, like 20 years ago. So that's also the reason why our price is so reasonable for wine collectors or wine lovers to come and enjoy. So if in front of you that these wines are already high volume, too rare to try. So I think that they will always make a choice of non-Chinese. But I would definitely say Chinese wine, as I'm also Chinese, our Chinese wine, I've tasted last five to 10 years, all the different years of production. So the winemaking skills is much higher than before. And also all the wineries, they have identical style. Because in the past, if you also taste some Chinese wine, so like 10 years ago, you may taste all the wine that tastes quite similar. So they are very copy and paste. Also, not copy and paste, it's more like the style.
Speaker #0
close to Bordeaux, some are close to Burgundy. But nowadays, you can taste some of wines that are really, really interesting, linked to a terroir, linked to that piece of land. I think that's very, very important. So I would say this is really called Chinese wine. So that from that land, we find the best grape suitable for that piece of land, then make a wine. So I think this is, I definitely say Chinese wine will be one of the fascinating things coming.
Speaker #1
Yeah, 100%. amazing thing amazing things are happening in chinese wines um if i am uh so you know this podcast is um uh listened by amateurs like you know wine amateurs people who really enjoy it but it's also listened by uh professionals in the wine industry especially some students as a sommelier and also some producers so the the two questions i have for you is if i am a young sommelier Okay. like students student sommelier what would you say to them to like what would be advice for starting a good advice for starting a career in the industry for
Speaker #0
the younger sommeliers I would say be patient because sommelier career is not easy to make you get So. quick money because I mean money is one thing for a lot of people. I mean they're looking for a job, right? So maybe for a couple of first couple of years, you may look at your salary won't be that much high. You need to really put yourself down to study. You need to understand the wine, understand the tasting, understand the service. When you reach a certain point, I think that you can... we start to build your career path, then maybe you're going to have that. It's a job, I would say, need a lot of patience, need a lot of discipline, need a lot of time to settle ourselves down. Some people, they say, the first couple of years, you always study. You don't study, sometimes you feel boring. Sometimes, then you have a lot of volume, especially in front of you, you have a lot of tastings. regions and laws or great varieties you have when you see massive information in front of you need to study some people they get scared sometimes they you feel overwhelmed sometimes you feel afraid so it's it's it's normal but i see a lot of younger sommelier they start quitting they said ah this is not really food for me so maybe i'm gonna move myself into insurance i see some people are moving into maybe into um managerial that will be great if they leave the hospitality a lot of people doing this way i mean of course it's end of days everybody's choice but i mean if you're one person when you settle yourself with a goal to be sommelier and to be in the hospitality industry you need to start accepting first that this is a different role i mean this role will be full of difficulties or that you need to face and to solve the problem but please believe end of the day for sure you will see a bright bright um yourself and bright future too um and same question but more for wine producers so
Speaker #1
if i am a wine producer in europe for example in france or in italy or something turns out i'm doing kind of good wines but i want you to to discover them and to bring them on the list here. What should I do?
Speaker #0
We're happy to do a tasting together. And of course, we're together with the sommelier team, so we can taste together and see how the wine that goes to particular restaurants. Because at the end of the day, it's food and wine pairing together, right? So it's always need to have a match. So then let's see if these winemakers, does he has already the... a collaborative vendor or distributor in Hong Kong and Macau if yes much easier if not we can start helping them to find a distributor responsible for them so then the procurement process is following okay so the you
Speaker #1
would say the first step is actually come here and just reach out to you to the hotel to like whatever and try to meet you and bring you
Speaker #0
bring a bit of butters to yeah to tell the story and maybe the philosophy that you really carry on and of course at the end of the day it's the glass matter yeah makes sense um
Speaker #1
I think we've covered a lot into what you're doing. Is there things we didn't mention?
Speaker #0
I think we covered everything, yeah.
Speaker #1
For the... I have a question about actually about here, about the Karl Lagerfeld Hotel. How did it... Like, it's the first time I hear about the Karl Lagerfeld Hotel. How did it happen?
Speaker #0
This hotel is designed by Karl Lagerfeld. It has been designed by him? Yes. So if you pass by the ground floor, you will see the book lounge. So that's because he loves books. And whenever you go, all the different... Actually, the color tone here is more on the black, gold, and red. This is the color he likes. And actually, everything is designed by him. But unfortunately, he designed everything, but he couldn't see it as well. So as you may know, he passed away in 2019.
Speaker #1
He passed away before the opening of the hotel?
Speaker #0
We opened this hall during COVID times, 2021 July. So two years before he passed away.
Speaker #1
Oh, wow.
Speaker #0
But every single corner, it's actually designed by him.
Speaker #1
Oh, wow.
Speaker #0
So we are one and only.
Speaker #1
Yeah, actually, you know, when I've seen that, I was like, I don't know, Karl Lagerfeld, what is it? And I thought it would be like, you know, he licensed his name and that's it. I actually didn't know he would design everything around here. We'll have a tour of the ground floor because we went through some elevators to arrive here, but we'll go to the ground floor to see the bookshelves. Great. How is it to study for a master's summary? I don't want to put some pressure, but...
Speaker #0
Well, I hear this is already with the pressure, actually. I'm trying to level up. So I'm... uh as i said i actually tried myself last year as well in october um i think it's very important to put yourself on a trial because every time when i hear from my friends from people who pass exam they're always going to tell you that there's certain things you need to face but when you're really sitting in the exam uh the the pressure or the amount of studies and also the angle of questions. So these, I think you will understand more. So after that exam, I... understand more on the question and of course more on the level of the master sommelier is looking for. So on this I think I'm quite clear. But the one another thing is the information is massive. So you just mentioned wine laws then wine regions, sub-regions and of course different percentage of alcohol or different percentage of sugar, whatever. So all those you have to understand and memorize them. Especially my workload is a bit I sometimes need to manage my workload. So then I always say time, you need to try to squeeze the time for your own style of study. As I mentioned earlier as well, actually, every day morning, I try to wake up at 6.30 in the morning. So the first two hours for me is really, my brain is much more clear and sharp. After that, if I'm moving to my separate, 9 o'clock, I'm already in here. I'm already in hotels doing some work. start my morning briefing and of course, eventually all the works and meetings and so on. So sometimes my job finished by 10. Sometimes with VIP events or wine dinners, most probably finish one or two. So during all the meetings, I think trying level best to see if I can squeeze that 15 minutes or five minutes just to go through the questions. It's very hard. I mean, for piece of advice for people, whoever wants to go for master's level exam, you need to really understand your Your timing and, of course, your discipline and, of course, your level of managing your own things. Of course, you need to manage your work, your family and yourself, of course. But again, I think it's a job, it's an exam to teach us how to be a better person. I think in terms of discipline, in terms of the level of time and effort you put in, definitely develop.
Speaker #1
for sure once you pass well i i wish you the best uh for this example how are you gonna make it um and yeah it looks like uh it looks like something uh really uh really huge in terms of workload and and commitment um and then what like what would be the difference for you if
Speaker #0
tomorrow you're master sommelier like will it change what does it change in your life um that's also not a good question so um i think The personally or professionally into the work, I think Master Sommelier title. Definitely going to bring a lot of windows. Of course, that brings number one, the credibility that people are looking at you. For example, when you are talking about a glass of water or a glass of wine, as a master sommelier, when you tell them something about a story about tasty notes, they may look differently from guest's point of view. So I think that definitely going to help to build up. personal, I would say, professionalism image. That would be definitely a key thing. But when talking about the personality, I would say hard work pays off because you really put a lot of time and effort, discipline and commitment to it, then you deserve that title. So for the personal, I would say, you can always tell yourself, wow, you did a good job. That's one key thing for being a personal. But along with all those, I think, again, you need to come up with responsibilities. So when you're being a master sommelier, like I see Pierre-Marie, I see Ronan, they're always helping the younger generation to set up a new standard, to set up the way of learning and the level of service and the level of tasting. So these are all along with responsibilities. It's not only you pass and today it's finished. You'd have to embrace the... community and also the industry people.
Speaker #1
You know, I interviewed a few years ago Pascaline Le Pelletier, who is France's best sommelier in, I don't know which year, and she represented France in a world-best sommelier. She finished second twice, things like that. She works in New York. And she told me something very inspiring in that, so, you know, she's, I don't know how to say, but like it's a title in France. It's like best, best worker in France in sommelier. And so she can have blue, white, red collar, you know, from France. And she was like, the day I feel I don't deserve this anymore, I won't wear it anymore. And like, it's not because I won one year in my life that I can wear that for the rest of my life without like continuing working and improving and bringing things to people, bringing the wine industry to a next step. And I think it was super inspiring because more personally speaking, at that time, I was training for a marathon. And I was like, you know what, I do a marathon, then I can say I did a marathon and it's okay. But then talking to her, I realized that It's worth nothing if I can't continue to have such an achievement in my life. Like running a marathon once is great, but being able to run it whenever you want in your life is something else. Like it's really another level. I'm not saying I could run a marathon tomorrow, but you know what I mean? Like you continue to deserve the award you acquired or the diploma you acquired.
Speaker #0
Wow, that's... That's so inspiring, actually. So actually, it reminds me of another person, Roberto. He just passed his master's somewhere last year. So this January, I was in Singapore. So he opened a new wine room called Temper in Singapore. So, of course, I said, I want to go there to have a look. It's a new wine lounge. Then I wanted to text him that I'm going to that Temper. So most probably we can meet up. So then the... In the message, he told me, I said, ah, where are you? He said, ah, I'm actually home doing study. So he took a picture of that page. It's about Chile. So he's really studying. I said, oh, wow, you're doing studies. He said, yes. So he's trying to maintain that, you know, he's already master of something. He expects the people's expectation to him. That makes me feel like I was super inspiring that when people reach the title, but he still continues study. F Something I really admire.
Speaker #1
That's impressive. Thank you very much, Winnie, for all this. It was an amazing discussion. Thank you very much for helping us discover this Karl Lagerfeld Hotel and this atmosphere. I think there is good learning in your career as a sommelier. And also, I hope it will inspire a younger generation listening to that and having a first glimpse in... What does it look like after what's been 10 years? Basically, you're working maybe a bit less in the industry.
Speaker #0
Now, 13 years.
Speaker #1
13 years. Okay, so a bit more than 10 years. So it's a good view for people projecting into what's going to be the first 10 years of my career. So that's amazing. And thank you for sharing this journey. I have three last questions that are pretty traditional in this podcast. the first thing is is do you have a book recommendation about wine in preference?
Speaker #0
Yes, I actually do have two books to recommend. One about viticulture and one about vinification. So maybe for some people, they feel it's quite a boring book, but it's really for me to understand quickly about viticulture and vinification. That's the two really books I really love. One is for viticulture and understand wines. And also another one is called Understand the Wine Technology, written by Mr. David Bird. So that's one of the very old books, but I think it's still available to find. But it's really, he's trying to use some simple wording to help you understand winemaking techniques. So for that two books, I highly recommend.
Speaker #1
Great. We'll put link in the description if you want to find it. Do you have a recent tasting that you loved? like a A wine that you tasted recently that was nice?
Speaker #0
Wow, that's a very good question. Recently, maybe yesterday, we were much more closer. So yesterday, I tasted some wine that was actually made by Michel Chapetier. He has a new project in Portugal. So the wine was from Portugal. The white and red for me is like something interesting. The Torreganese makes me feel like, wow, it's something with a lot of French touch. It's very elegant. So I think it's something to recommend. It's not high-end, but it's beautiful.
Speaker #1
Amazing. And we salute Michel Chaptier. He was one of the first person to come on the podcast.
Speaker #0
Oh, yeah.
Speaker #1
But it's in French. It was at the time we were doing in French, but actually it was one of the first interviews I did. And it was an amazing discussion. I think I learned loads of things with this interview. And he was very into sharing. And we should do a new interview, but in English. next time we see him actually I don't know if he speaks super well English we'll see I guess he speaks well English but yeah very nice guy and he kind of contributed to starting this podcast and finally who is the next person we should interview?
Speaker #0
I'm thinking Fennel Mark Fennel is now the head sommelier for Alan Dukas in COD City of Dreams so I think Fennel I knew him as a very good friend. So sometimes we actually study together, doing a lot of questionnaires. So of course, we threw video calls too. He's a very disciplined person as well, very hardworking. And he's very, very professional into his own world. And of course, he's also another target to help the younger generation, to help the team to grow up. So I think I recommend him.
Speaker #1
Amazing. It's based in Macau? Yes, based in Macau. That's great. It should be a good excuse to come back. Yeah, please. That's great news. Thank you very much, Winnie, for this. Thank you for sharing this. If you like this episode, if you're still here, it means that you like this episode, actually. So don't forget to share it to at least two people, maybe two people wanting to join the wine world as a sommelier or studying to become sommelier or master sommelier. Don't forget to subscribe, share, like, everything. Check the description for the elements Winnie showed to us. Come to Macau if you have the opportunity. Come to Mesa and the restaurants around here. Winnie, thanks again and see you soon.
Speaker #0
Thank you, Anouar. See you soon.
Speaker #1
Fine.
Speaker #0
Thank you.
Speaker #1
Great interview. Thanks a lot.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

In this episode, we travel to Macau to meet Winnie Chen, Assistant Director of Wine & Beverage at SJM Resorts and one of the professionals behind one of the largest wine collections in Asia.

We also discuss the evolution of the Macau wine market, the rise of Chinese wines, how massive wine programs are curated, and Winnie’s advice for young sommeliers dreaming of entering the industry.

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Hi Winnie.
Speaker #1
Hi Antoine.
Speaker #0
Thank you very much for welcoming us here. So we are in the Karl Lagerfeld Hotel and in Mesa, which is one of the restaurants you're managing here, for the wine you're managing here. Before starting, I need to thank Pierre-Marie. So Pierre-Marie Patuay in a previous episode put us in relationship. At the end, I always ask, who is the next person I show in interview? And without hesitating, he said you need to talk to Winnie in Macau. So thank you very much, Pierre-Marie for this We'll talk a lot about the Macau market and the context here. But before, can you start by introducing yourself?
Speaker #1
Sure. Thank you, Antoine. Thank you, Pianahi. I think it's given me a great opportunity here to share my thoughts. So my name is Winnie. I'm Chinese. I'm actually 100% made in China. And right now I'm working in this hotel, which basically results at Gran Lisboa Palace, or I should say SJM Group, as assistant for the beverage director, looking after wine and beverages. So how I started my career, as I always say, it's a wonderful journey. Actually, I graduated in 2010. So I started my management training in... Hakkasan restaurant, actually based in Abu Dhabi. Now it's Emirates Palace. So it's a Chinese restaurant. It's also a Michelin one-star restaurant. So as a management training, so basically we started with everything on the floor. So then comes to wine, was actually another interesting story. So we often have trainings going through. So one day the hotel sommelier, his name is Anand Dukuma. So he organized... tasting and organize the training for every people i mean all the employees in the in the restaurant so the topic is about the lua valley so for me that's one of the magical lesson um why i say that because i'm growing up in a very very traditional family so in china most of us we never drink alcohol before we turn 18 so because you are not adults so you won't touch any alcohol and then that tasting or that training basically i don't really taste anything For me, it's really like alcohol.
Speaker #0
When was it? You were like 18?
Speaker #1
That time I was 21 already. 21. The tasting was, it's not about tasting for me on the first lesson, but it's all about the culture and about the, especially the diverse different style of the wine in that region of Luoyang. It's very, very huge. It keeps in my mind, it's 1,100 kilometers of long river, but you can really divide it into four regions. And each different region, you know, many different LLCs are different styles. And then the culture left behind. So these are making me feel very, very interested. So then after first lesson, they move on to the second one. So it's a weekly training. So then slowly, naturally, I moved myself into WSET. So my first WSET Level 1 was completed in 2012. So then I would say a bit greedy or I would say a bit ambitious is when I'm doing Level 1, I was thinking I should do Level 2. So when I was doing Level 2, I'm actually thinking to do Level 3. So it's really like, because the knowledge really for me is a very, very, I would say curiosity that brings me there. So I passed my WSJ diploma in 2018. So I think completely into six years. And of course, Hakka-san gave me the first lesson. And after that, I advanced myself into Dubai. So it's another international city. So Dubai, I entered a hotel called Bojahrab. It's a cell-shaped, so seven-star hotel. We have a group of 14 sommeliers. Until now, we still have a group. We're chatting, not every day, but we do time by time. So we missed the time we actually worked together. So 14 sommeliers in that time, I mean, during 2015 time, it's a very big group. And we overlook 1,200 SKUs, I mean, different labels. I think I studied myself, I mean, how to say, I deepened myself into more on seller management, of course, more on guest experience, especially international clientele. So I completed the bird job in 2019. So after that, it was COVID. So I put myself back to mainland China. So I joined the Granite Spa Palace in 2021. I started my first job here. It's actually Rizal Health Somalia. Then within a couple of years, so I acquired it. I built my own career, so now I'm actually assistant food and beverage director on wine and beverages. So not only wine, of course, beverages, everything's in one plate.
Speaker #0
So you mentioned this first tasting as something revelatory for you, like this is actually what I want to do in my life and deepen my knowledge into that. What were you studying at the time? So you were 21? One.
Speaker #1
Well,
Speaker #0
you was. studying what like hospitality already or hospitality management yes and when you when you told your family actually i want to work in the in the wine industry how did they react my mom says no until
Speaker #1
now she she still sometimes she doesn't accept myself i mean as a girl then she says i'm i'm into myself into this career she still say don't drink too much you know And I was like, okay, okay. But my father actually, in a way, both of them, they support me a lot. Without them, I won't be here. Because, you know, Chinese sometimes are very family-driven. And I'm the only child, so they want me to be around with them. But until now, they give me a lot of support that let me be free and study and, of course, working.
Speaker #0
Okay. And so when you have this first tasting, What is your next step? Is that basically you, so you enjoy it, you realize that wine industry has a lot to offer, then you go see your teachers and you're like, how can I go deeper into it?
Speaker #1
That's an interesting question. Actually, the first class doesn't bring me too much into that. I say, ah, okay, that will be the first, that decides my career. I think at that moment, I put myself into... hospitality management, but rather than specific into wine and beverage or so on. So that time, I think when you were young, I think you probably have a better memory. So then after first lesson, of course, the teacher is going to give you a lot of study material, so you need to go to home and study. But that time, I think one week after, beginning of the second class, the teacher will start asking everybody about questions from the previous lesson. So that time, I think the memory was very good. So they were asking questions so I could answer them. Even that time, I would say I have so much understanding about it. Because for me, that's really completely a new era, new world. So by the, I mean, the head sommelier of the hotel, he encouraged me very much, a lot. Even from WCT1 until WCT level 4. So he constantly encouraged me that you can do it, you can do it. And I see without his encouragement, I won't do that much faster from one to four. If you want to tell, I think I start get the tasting skills more or less when I finish the level two of WCT. That you have really understanding about the wine tasting profile. So that takes me a little bit long time. I always look back and say, I drink very much late. the But I get that kind of, I miss the time, I would say.
Speaker #0
No, WST is a great school of learning how to technically taste wine. Because, you know, you have this very systematic way of tasting the different parts. For me, it was very interesting as well because, you know, obviously I taste wine, I'm interesting in it, but I didn't have this systematic approach and this vocabulary associated, like what is a low, medium, high acidity, you know, like it's basic stuff. But just the fact of putting a clear grid on what is it, it's great. It has some flaws because sometimes it's a bit too, you know, standard. but actually it helps a bit.
Speaker #1
Definitely. It's definitely one of the foundations. It builds the foundation of tasting. So after the diploma, I think I put myself into more professional fields. So then I pursued myself into course of master sommelier. So I think when I do certified, then completely advanced, so then I think it's different. different tasting methods. Of course, it's the same thing you are looking at acidity, alcohol, tannin level, or fruit profile or anything. But the way of detecting the grape variety is something really, how to say, more professional, I would say, more technical in the CMS field. WSCT, in a way, nowadays, I could understand. WSCT is more to help people understand the wine, especially the quality side. CMS called Master Sommelier is more on helping people to detect what grape varieties are vintage and from which country.
Speaker #0
You're a Master Sommelier now?
Speaker #1
I'm not yet. I'm a Master Sommelier candidate. I need more time to study on that.
Speaker #0
And so you already tried or you...
Speaker #1
I tried once last year in October in London. Okay.
Speaker #0
It takes time to be a master sommelier. A lot of people need a few tries to validate that.
Speaker #1
Yes, average, I think, need maybe five or six years to do that.
Speaker #0
Yeah. So you kind of started your career in the Emirates, professionally speaking.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
How is it to arrive in... So was it in Abu Dhabi?
Speaker #1
Yes, started in Abu Dhabi, yeah.
Speaker #0
How is it to arrive? You were like 20? 20 something, 22, 23? Yeah,
Speaker #1
20. So 20 I entered Abu Dhabi. So it's, yeah, it's interesting because people sometimes say, oh, how did you study wine in Middle East? That's always a question I get. So after hospitality management, so I think one of the key tourism is that time in the Middle East. So I'll never be there. So for girls, I think it's always great to see the world, to see it. here I also again need to appreciate my parents so they really support me to let me go out so to see different worlds yeah plus for them it's not easy to see their girl going to the Middle East you know alone at 20 or something yeah and so you you start as a sommelier yeah assistant oh I started with actually management trainee just the trainee so working in the restaurants okay and then you go to Dubai yeah then Go to Dubai. So like four years time in Abu Dhabi, then four years time in Dubai.
Speaker #0
Okay. And you were living in Abu Dhabi and then in Dubai?
Speaker #1
Yeah. It's two different companies. Emirates Palace was my first job. So of course, we stayed in Abu Dhabi for four years. But that time, especially for my WSE level three, the courses are happening in Dubai. So basically, I need to travel every week to do the courses. Then after Abu Dhabi, then I moved myself into Dubai. So of course, I just stayed in Dubai. Okay.
Speaker #0
And so how was it being a sommelier in Dubai?
Speaker #1
Very interesting, actually. So as I mentioned, 14 sommeliers, right? We have a group of 14 sommeliers. I still remember when I received the message from the head sommelier of Burj Arab. So the first question he was asking me, do you feel comfortable to work with 13 men? So during the time, I mean, back to... 10 years so very rare they have a girl female sommelier very rare mostly they are gentlemen but men so I feel it's okay I mean I didn't think of something you really need to put the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the female so the way I told him I think it's it's maybe feel more lucky because I have people to look after right so then I answered so you Again, it's end of day, I feel. It's really with all our 11 boys, they don't have more. We have two more girls joining as well. So our team members are really working like a family and really like brothers, sisters. We help each other. And especially, you know, in Belgium, all the restaurants, if I'm in any restaurant, we do a split shift. So you have lunch shift, you have dinner shift. So most of our time, we're working two shifts. So basically, all of us, you arrive in the hotel probably 11 o'clock a.m. or 12. So then, of course, you do your medicine plus, then you start your operation at 12. Of course, you have breathing and so on. So when the lunch operation finishes around 3 or 3.30, so between 3.30, for example, until your 5.30 or 6 o'clock, your dinner operation, so the two and a half hour gap there. So, of course, sometimes you need to walk on to... you put all the wines back in your cellar, you make sure you have some extra storage, or you have some admin paperwork. But again, you always have some certain times, these two and a half hours, you are free. So what we do is we have a lot of... private rooms of restaurants. So we grab our book, study materials. So then we go to that private and we study together. Of course, sometimes we organize a lot of tastings in Birch. So every day, one week or maybe two weeks time, you always can get winemakers or the sales director or any ambassador they come to Dubai. So they organize a masterclass for all the shops. So see, I mean, the work... Work life and study life is basically combined. So great. I miss the time over there, actually, really a lot.
Speaker #0
Yeah, it looks like a time when you had the opportunity to kind of mix things, learn a lot. It's great that you have this in between your service, because a lot of people actually complain that between the services, there is nothing to do. And then, you know, you just waste like three hours, can't go home. just do something because sure in Dubai there is like the time you take the car get to a place and then come back then it's been three hours Bourj Al Arab is one of the most iconic and luxurious hotel in the world so like you said it's a seven stars well they looks like they've decided themselves to award the seven stars so like I'm not sure there is a proper ranking for the number of stars but But anyway, it's like one of the, probably the most luxurious hotel. Have you seen, like, does it change that much working for such a high level hotel than working here? For example, here it's like five stars, Palace as well.
Speaker #1
You are absolutely right. There's no proper ranking for border up as a seven star. So it's actually... But the Bojahrabi, if you go to the entrance, it's still a five-star hotel. Why it comes to seven? Because one of the English journalists, they came to Birch, they stayed with us. Then after he departed back to London, so he wrote a very big article saying that the experience, the services he received is over five stars. So he thinks that is a seven-star service. That time it's really like seven to one, like seven stars looking after one guest. I mean, that kind of ratio. So that's how the seven star hotel comes from. There's another joke saying that actually in entire Burj Al Arab, we use the 49 tons of gold. So when you go to the toilet, there are some corners, it's always with gold flakes. It's real gold. So it's like they said it's around 49 tons. So then when the Emirates Palace built after, so actually in Emirates Palace, it was talking about 50 something, 56 or something, 56 tons of gold. That's why there's always say Emirates Palace like A-star hotel. But again, no proper rank, but in a way. Here in Macau, so our Grand Lisbon Palace result, we are also very special. We are the only hotel in the world. Because we have three hotels combined. The Karl Lagerfeld is where we are standing. We have the Plaza of Versace Macau. So it's next door. And of course, we have the main building, the Gran Lisboa Palace. So all three hotels have received five-star Forbes. I think it's really one of the only ones, I should say, in the world. And also, all the hotels, we have two Michelin keys. So, I mean, in Macau, we really... also looking for seek for the excellence on different channel of course in the service and in Macau I would say in Asia we care service more than anyone else it's the same thing we and demanding or you will say the guest expectation is not going to lower than any other else it's always super high yeah
Speaker #0
and Chinese hospitality in general is known to be to be amazing when you go to to hotels uh, In China, it's amazing. So right now, you are managing the wine and beverage selection for all the restaurants of these three hotels.
Speaker #1
Yes, we are actually an SGM group. So we have here, we have Grand Lisboa Palace Resort that combines three hotels we just mentioned. We also have Grand Lisboa, which is in the Macau side.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
And we also have another hotel called The Luck, which we just purchased recently. So all those are under SGM Group. So we are like a kind of corporate looking after all the wines and beverages.
Speaker #0
And so how many restaurants?
Speaker #1
In this building, in Grand Lisboa Palace Resort, we have around 33 outlets. And of course, plus Grand Lisboa, we have additional like 10. And The Luck, maybe around five. So everything added together, it's around 70.
Speaker #0
Okay. And so it must be a lot of different staff to train, a lot of different SKUs. So I guess, does the wine selection change depending on where you are in the group?
Speaker #1
Yes. We are holding the largest wine selection in Asia. So we have around 17,000 SKUs. Not talking about bottle labels.
Speaker #0
17,000?
Speaker #1
17,000, yes. So then, of course, different restaurants will be slightly different with the Wine by the Glass program. For example, now we're in Mesa. Mesa is more Portuguese. So we actually created another 100% Portuguese wine list only for these restaurants. And of course, we have more Versace. So it's Italian cuisine, Italian style. So we more on Italian wines. And then we have Palace Garden. So more on the Chinese Cantonese. So we get more focus on French.
Speaker #0
Hmm. How do you manage 17,000
Speaker #1
SKUs? It's not only one person. It definitely needs a lot of teamwork. So we have different teams. For example, Granite Sport, we have a Granite Sport team. We used to have three 590 restaurants over there. Here we have four 590 restaurants over here. So team adds up together, it's around 14 people. Again, 14.
Speaker #0
And do you still serve clients or are you more focused on managing the team, managing the SKUs, training the team to sell the wine?
Speaker #1
I would say both, but now I spend a slightly less time on the floor. That's yes, but I really miss a lot. Admin work will be a bit more overloaded. Of course, we still have two projects on the pipeline, so working on that too. But we have a lot of wine dinners happening. For example, the year of 2026, we have organized around 12 to 14 wine dinners in the entire year of 2026. So like every one month, we have one dinner. So that needs a lot of coordination too. And then all those wine dinners or VIP guest events we have, I always be with them until the last moment. Yeah.
Speaker #0
Okay. And so considering that you have 70... restaurants uh working uh like together do you like do you still manage to buy some low volumes here and there or when you buy a wine it must be like a gigantic orders for for people so do you still manage to work like with small estates and you know to try to identify really niche things or do you try to just bulk buy uh we prefer niche
Speaker #1
I would say that because our, yes, we have 17,000 labels. So we have a lot of focus on the big brands, of course, the more popular. But now the market is changing a bit. Of course, demanding on the niche and boutique wineries are even higher and higher. So we do focus on those as well, especially in the Grand Lisbon Palace results here. We more focus on, for example, even the Gros-Royal Champagne, for sure. We have a lot of smaller Gros-Royal Champagne and they are more like on. allocation style and of course big brand we also do but won't be very like a booker in a large volume purchase so it's more on we observe the market and see how well the demand is and so you you are responsible for for this as well yeah of course together with the team so because who understand the guest most is actually the person who working on the floor every day so I always listen to this advice or suggestion from all the team members.
Speaker #0
What's the type of people who come here?
Speaker #1
Type of people? How to say that? Macau is a gaming hospitality-driven. So because we all follow the government and also ourselves as well, so we're trying to promote as much as we can with non-gaming elements, for example, food and beverage. Especially, I mean, in Granite Spot Palace, we focus more. on food and beverage. So to provide the service or provide the best wine, our guest clientele is more on foodies and who's really loving the wine. And one thing to mention is in our, in SGM, so we are trying to have a very reasonable selling price in our wine list. So if you check out our wine list, you will see most of the wine that you may find is quite, quite close to retail price or quite, quite close. I wouldn't say the same as the one in Sochi, but definitely reasonable, as we always... follow dr stanley jose that he wants every single guest come to granite's papaya comes to sgm so they can enjoy wine and food like you are actually doing at home so it's like a more homie style okay and um and yeah and so you you said that you're trying to promote more food and wine than gaming um it's definitely it's one of the key element we want to promote for sure But gaming is always, this is hospitality, right?
Speaker #0
And do you have a lot of winemakers coming here to present the wine and to show you things?
Speaker #1
We do, especially, and also we are very close to Hong Kong. So then every, this year, actually, 26th May, we have Wien Expo. So by the time we should have a lot of winemakers who would like to come to Macau to tell us a story about, of course, the winery.
Speaker #0
Will definitely be around for Vinaxpo. I think it's going to be an amazing moment for the wine industry. Yeah,
Speaker #1
and actually we have around 14 wine dinners on the way. So every wine dinner, we definitely have winery representatives, winemakers or owners are here as well to share more stories about our guests here. Of course, you know, gaming as well, wine lovers around the town.
Speaker #0
What differences do you see between Dubai and Macau?
Speaker #1
Number one, I would say the customer profile, because there is more international. So you will see a lot of European in Dubai. And after COVID, they have even more of Russians, I think, and more European people over there. But in Macau, I would say 80% is more on Chinese, other than from mainland. And some are from Hong Kong and some, of course, more. percentage of Europeans are getting smaller and smaller. Of course we have more Asia like Japan, Korea, Thailand, Southeast Asia.
Speaker #0
I see around the table that you have a lot of awards. I can see like top 100 tables, Taitler 2025. Is it something that is important to you? Do you contribute to this?
Speaker #1
It's a restaurant's effort. It's a team's effort. So that's also one of the key proof for us. We really want to do things seriously on our food and beverage. So this is the food. So, of course, linked to the restaurant of the chef. So chef is trying to contribute a lot from their side. So they will get 100 table, Tesla events, awards, and also, of course, the sea trip. So all these awards are being... it's team efforts. Wine, we have different wine awards. So we also participate Star Wine List, Wine Spectator, and also World of Fine Wine Awards. And also we do have Champagne in Asia as well. So we have different categories.
Speaker #0
One of the topics that is very important to us is Chinese wines. So, you know, we've been kind of exploring the Exploring, it's a big word, but we have started exploring Chinese wines, trying to taste, trying to go see what is happening in China. Is it something that you also push here? I mean, more Chinese wines, maybe if you have Chinese restaurants, having a bit more of wines from China? Or is it or like do you keep many international? Like what's your vision on Chinese wines?
Speaker #1
In our result, the ratio between Chinese and non-Chinese, I would say, a bit more smaller, definitely if you were compared to other results. The reason why is actually we have a very, very large wine selection, so 70% of the other. So if you're talking about like 20 or 30 Chinese, that's the ratio is really too small. and also one thing I mentioned earlier is all French wine, Italian wine, American wine, all those we actually... collected them a very long, long, long time back, like 20 years ago. So that's also the reason why our price is so reasonable for wine collectors or wine lovers to come and enjoy. So if in front of you that these wines are already high volume, too rare to try. So I think that they will always make a choice of non-Chinese. But I would definitely say Chinese wine, as I'm also Chinese, our Chinese wine, I've tasted last five to 10 years, all the different years of production. So the winemaking skills is much higher than before. And also all the wineries, they have identical style. Because in the past, if you also taste some Chinese wine, so like 10 years ago, you may taste all the wine that tastes quite similar. So they are very copy and paste. Also, not copy and paste, it's more like the style.
Speaker #0
close to Bordeaux, some are close to Burgundy. But nowadays, you can taste some of wines that are really, really interesting, linked to a terroir, linked to that piece of land. I think that's very, very important. So I would say this is really called Chinese wine. So that from that land, we find the best grape suitable for that piece of land, then make a wine. So I think this is, I definitely say Chinese wine will be one of the fascinating things coming.
Speaker #1
Yeah, 100%. amazing thing amazing things are happening in chinese wines um if i am uh so you know this podcast is um uh listened by amateurs like you know wine amateurs people who really enjoy it but it's also listened by uh professionals in the wine industry especially some students as a sommelier and also some producers so the the two questions i have for you is if i am a young sommelier Okay. like students student sommelier what would you say to them to like what would be advice for starting a good advice for starting a career in the industry for
Speaker #0
the younger sommeliers I would say be patient because sommelier career is not easy to make you get So. quick money because I mean money is one thing for a lot of people. I mean they're looking for a job, right? So maybe for a couple of first couple of years, you may look at your salary won't be that much high. You need to really put yourself down to study. You need to understand the wine, understand the tasting, understand the service. When you reach a certain point, I think that you can... we start to build your career path, then maybe you're going to have that. It's a job, I would say, need a lot of patience, need a lot of discipline, need a lot of time to settle ourselves down. Some people, they say, the first couple of years, you always study. You don't study, sometimes you feel boring. Sometimes, then you have a lot of volume, especially in front of you, you have a lot of tastings. regions and laws or great varieties you have when you see massive information in front of you need to study some people they get scared sometimes they you feel overwhelmed sometimes you feel afraid so it's it's it's normal but i see a lot of younger sommelier they start quitting they said ah this is not really food for me so maybe i'm gonna move myself into insurance i see some people are moving into maybe into um managerial that will be great if they leave the hospitality a lot of people doing this way i mean of course it's end of days everybody's choice but i mean if you're one person when you settle yourself with a goal to be sommelier and to be in the hospitality industry you need to start accepting first that this is a different role i mean this role will be full of difficulties or that you need to face and to solve the problem but please believe end of the day for sure you will see a bright bright um yourself and bright future too um and same question but more for wine producers so
Speaker #1
if i am a wine producer in europe for example in france or in italy or something turns out i'm doing kind of good wines but i want you to to discover them and to bring them on the list here. What should I do?
Speaker #0
We're happy to do a tasting together. And of course, we're together with the sommelier team, so we can taste together and see how the wine that goes to particular restaurants. Because at the end of the day, it's food and wine pairing together, right? So it's always need to have a match. So then let's see if these winemakers, does he has already the... a collaborative vendor or distributor in Hong Kong and Macau if yes much easier if not we can start helping them to find a distributor responsible for them so then the procurement process is following okay so the you
Speaker #1
would say the first step is actually come here and just reach out to you to the hotel to like whatever and try to meet you and bring you
Speaker #0
bring a bit of butters to yeah to tell the story and maybe the philosophy that you really carry on and of course at the end of the day it's the glass matter yeah makes sense um
Speaker #1
I think we've covered a lot into what you're doing. Is there things we didn't mention?
Speaker #0
I think we covered everything, yeah.
Speaker #1
For the... I have a question about actually about here, about the Karl Lagerfeld Hotel. How did it... Like, it's the first time I hear about the Karl Lagerfeld Hotel. How did it happen?
Speaker #0
This hotel is designed by Karl Lagerfeld. It has been designed by him? Yes. So if you pass by the ground floor, you will see the book lounge. So that's because he loves books. And whenever you go, all the different... Actually, the color tone here is more on the black, gold, and red. This is the color he likes. And actually, everything is designed by him. But unfortunately, he designed everything, but he couldn't see it as well. So as you may know, he passed away in 2019.
Speaker #1
He passed away before the opening of the hotel?
Speaker #0
We opened this hall during COVID times, 2021 July. So two years before he passed away.
Speaker #1
Oh, wow.
Speaker #0
But every single corner, it's actually designed by him.
Speaker #1
Oh, wow.
Speaker #0
So we are one and only.
Speaker #1
Yeah, actually, you know, when I've seen that, I was like, I don't know, Karl Lagerfeld, what is it? And I thought it would be like, you know, he licensed his name and that's it. I actually didn't know he would design everything around here. We'll have a tour of the ground floor because we went through some elevators to arrive here, but we'll go to the ground floor to see the bookshelves. Great. How is it to study for a master's summary? I don't want to put some pressure, but...
Speaker #0
Well, I hear this is already with the pressure, actually. I'm trying to level up. So I'm... uh as i said i actually tried myself last year as well in october um i think it's very important to put yourself on a trial because every time when i hear from my friends from people who pass exam they're always going to tell you that there's certain things you need to face but when you're really sitting in the exam uh the the pressure or the amount of studies and also the angle of questions. So these, I think you will understand more. So after that exam, I... understand more on the question and of course more on the level of the master sommelier is looking for. So on this I think I'm quite clear. But the one another thing is the information is massive. So you just mentioned wine laws then wine regions, sub-regions and of course different percentage of alcohol or different percentage of sugar, whatever. So all those you have to understand and memorize them. Especially my workload is a bit I sometimes need to manage my workload. So then I always say time, you need to try to squeeze the time for your own style of study. As I mentioned earlier as well, actually, every day morning, I try to wake up at 6.30 in the morning. So the first two hours for me is really, my brain is much more clear and sharp. After that, if I'm moving to my separate, 9 o'clock, I'm already in here. I'm already in hotels doing some work. start my morning briefing and of course, eventually all the works and meetings and so on. So sometimes my job finished by 10. Sometimes with VIP events or wine dinners, most probably finish one or two. So during all the meetings, I think trying level best to see if I can squeeze that 15 minutes or five minutes just to go through the questions. It's very hard. I mean, for piece of advice for people, whoever wants to go for master's level exam, you need to really understand your Your timing and, of course, your discipline and, of course, your level of managing your own things. Of course, you need to manage your work, your family and yourself, of course. But again, I think it's a job, it's an exam to teach us how to be a better person. I think in terms of discipline, in terms of the level of time and effort you put in, definitely develop.
Speaker #1
for sure once you pass well i i wish you the best uh for this example how are you gonna make it um and yeah it looks like uh it looks like something uh really uh really huge in terms of workload and and commitment um and then what like what would be the difference for you if
Speaker #0
tomorrow you're master sommelier like will it change what does it change in your life um that's also not a good question so um i think The personally or professionally into the work, I think Master Sommelier title. Definitely going to bring a lot of windows. Of course, that brings number one, the credibility that people are looking at you. For example, when you are talking about a glass of water or a glass of wine, as a master sommelier, when you tell them something about a story about tasty notes, they may look differently from guest's point of view. So I think that definitely going to help to build up. personal, I would say, professionalism image. That would be definitely a key thing. But when talking about the personality, I would say hard work pays off because you really put a lot of time and effort, discipline and commitment to it, then you deserve that title. So for the personal, I would say, you can always tell yourself, wow, you did a good job. That's one key thing for being a personal. But along with all those, I think, again, you need to come up with responsibilities. So when you're being a master sommelier, like I see Pierre-Marie, I see Ronan, they're always helping the younger generation to set up a new standard, to set up the way of learning and the level of service and the level of tasting. So these are all along with responsibilities. It's not only you pass and today it's finished. You'd have to embrace the... community and also the industry people.
Speaker #1
You know, I interviewed a few years ago Pascaline Le Pelletier, who is France's best sommelier in, I don't know which year, and she represented France in a world-best sommelier. She finished second twice, things like that. She works in New York. And she told me something very inspiring in that, so, you know, she's, I don't know how to say, but like it's a title in France. It's like best, best worker in France in sommelier. And so she can have blue, white, red collar, you know, from France. And she was like, the day I feel I don't deserve this anymore, I won't wear it anymore. And like, it's not because I won one year in my life that I can wear that for the rest of my life without like continuing working and improving and bringing things to people, bringing the wine industry to a next step. And I think it was super inspiring because more personally speaking, at that time, I was training for a marathon. And I was like, you know what, I do a marathon, then I can say I did a marathon and it's okay. But then talking to her, I realized that It's worth nothing if I can't continue to have such an achievement in my life. Like running a marathon once is great, but being able to run it whenever you want in your life is something else. Like it's really another level. I'm not saying I could run a marathon tomorrow, but you know what I mean? Like you continue to deserve the award you acquired or the diploma you acquired.
Speaker #0
Wow, that's... That's so inspiring, actually. So actually, it reminds me of another person, Roberto. He just passed his master's somewhere last year. So this January, I was in Singapore. So he opened a new wine room called Temper in Singapore. So, of course, I said, I want to go there to have a look. It's a new wine lounge. Then I wanted to text him that I'm going to that Temper. So most probably we can meet up. So then the... In the message, he told me, I said, ah, where are you? He said, ah, I'm actually home doing study. So he took a picture of that page. It's about Chile. So he's really studying. I said, oh, wow, you're doing studies. He said, yes. So he's trying to maintain that, you know, he's already master of something. He expects the people's expectation to him. That makes me feel like I was super inspiring that when people reach the title, but he still continues study. F Something I really admire.
Speaker #1
That's impressive. Thank you very much, Winnie, for all this. It was an amazing discussion. Thank you very much for helping us discover this Karl Lagerfeld Hotel and this atmosphere. I think there is good learning in your career as a sommelier. And also, I hope it will inspire a younger generation listening to that and having a first glimpse in... What does it look like after what's been 10 years? Basically, you're working maybe a bit less in the industry.
Speaker #0
Now, 13 years.
Speaker #1
13 years. Okay, so a bit more than 10 years. So it's a good view for people projecting into what's going to be the first 10 years of my career. So that's amazing. And thank you for sharing this journey. I have three last questions that are pretty traditional in this podcast. the first thing is is do you have a book recommendation about wine in preference?
Speaker #0
Yes, I actually do have two books to recommend. One about viticulture and one about vinification. So maybe for some people, they feel it's quite a boring book, but it's really for me to understand quickly about viticulture and vinification. That's the two really books I really love. One is for viticulture and understand wines. And also another one is called Understand the Wine Technology, written by Mr. David Bird. So that's one of the very old books, but I think it's still available to find. But it's really, he's trying to use some simple wording to help you understand winemaking techniques. So for that two books, I highly recommend.
Speaker #1
Great. We'll put link in the description if you want to find it. Do you have a recent tasting that you loved? like a A wine that you tasted recently that was nice?
Speaker #0
Wow, that's a very good question. Recently, maybe yesterday, we were much more closer. So yesterday, I tasted some wine that was actually made by Michel Chapetier. He has a new project in Portugal. So the wine was from Portugal. The white and red for me is like something interesting. The Torreganese makes me feel like, wow, it's something with a lot of French touch. It's very elegant. So I think it's something to recommend. It's not high-end, but it's beautiful.
Speaker #1
Amazing. And we salute Michel Chaptier. He was one of the first person to come on the podcast.
Speaker #0
Oh, yeah.
Speaker #1
But it's in French. It was at the time we were doing in French, but actually it was one of the first interviews I did. And it was an amazing discussion. I think I learned loads of things with this interview. And he was very into sharing. And we should do a new interview, but in English. next time we see him actually I don't know if he speaks super well English we'll see I guess he speaks well English but yeah very nice guy and he kind of contributed to starting this podcast and finally who is the next person we should interview?
Speaker #0
I'm thinking Fennel Mark Fennel is now the head sommelier for Alan Dukas in COD City of Dreams so I think Fennel I knew him as a very good friend. So sometimes we actually study together, doing a lot of questionnaires. So of course, we threw video calls too. He's a very disciplined person as well, very hardworking. And he's very, very professional into his own world. And of course, he's also another target to help the younger generation, to help the team to grow up. So I think I recommend him.
Speaker #1
Amazing. It's based in Macau? Yes, based in Macau. That's great. It should be a good excuse to come back. Yeah, please. That's great news. Thank you very much, Winnie, for this. Thank you for sharing this. If you like this episode, if you're still here, it means that you like this episode, actually. So don't forget to share it to at least two people, maybe two people wanting to join the wine world as a sommelier or studying to become sommelier or master sommelier. Don't forget to subscribe, share, like, everything. Check the description for the elements Winnie showed to us. Come to Macau if you have the opportunity. Come to Mesa and the restaurants around here. Winnie, thanks again and see you soon.
Speaker #0
Thank you, Anouar. See you soon.
Speaker #1
Fine.
Speaker #0
Thank you.
Speaker #1
Great interview. Thanks a lot.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

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