- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
Welcome to B2B Business Class, your ticket to the conversations everyone's wanting to hear in B2B. I'm your host, Rob Conlon, and we'll be taking you on one hell of a trip to new horizons in the B2B space. Whether you're just earning your wings or you're a frequent flyer, there's a seat for you here in B2B Business Class. We're cleared for takeoff, so let's get into the show. Welcome to B2B Business Class. I'm Rob Conlon, and we are taking a virtual trip to Houston, Texas today to chat with one of the most influential people in my B2B career. Joining me today is James Robert Lay, and if you don't know James Robert, you should. He's the head of the Digital Growth Institute, and they help banks and credit unions and fintechs bring their financial brands into the modern age, and they're darn good at it. So, James Robert, thank you so much for being here today on our inaugural episode. It is great to have you on the show. Welcome.
- James Robert Lay
Rob, it is both a pleasure and an honor as always to share time with you.
- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
Well, man, the honor is mine. You've taught me so much over the past couple of years that we've known each other and it's just been, it's been a lot of fun. We've worked together a lot and this is kind of like the, like the cherry on top of the sundae. So I'm so glad you're here. So diving right in, James Robert, over the years, you've helped hundreds of financial brands get their digital ducks kind of in a row. But before that, you were the front man for a punk band. So I have to ask you, how did you go from wanting to be the next Tom DeLonge or Travis Barker to being on stage without a guitar talking about banks?
- James Robert Lay
yeah that's a great question believe it or not back in the day i wanted a surfer green tom delong guitar from guitar center nice and did not have the cash to make that happen and that kind of plays into the story of how i went from being on on stage with a guitar to then now speaking globally at financial brand conferences and events around the world uh there was a girl there's always a girl and and the genre of music is pop punk foray a little emo and there was a girl in the library one day we were studying and she said you know your band it's not very good uh it it it stung you know but she said it's not very good in fact it actually sucks and and you kind of suck as a as a front man as a singer and i'm like let's punk rock like you don't have to have like choir boy vocals and she said you know you need to do something meaningful with your life and of course i like this girl and she was very sweet she she went to my shows and i wanted to impress her and so that was such a turning point in my life because that same day it was february 11th 2002 um i went and sold my band equipment ponded off and
- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
oh my gosh
- James Robert Lay
oh i just that's how i that's how i roll like once once i do decide something in my mind i'm all in there's not like one foot in one foot out like i was just like okay that chapter is closed i'm gonna start a new chapter as an entrepreneur I had no idea what I was getting myself into because I started a web design company on that day. I got a DBA and the Internet was still really in its infancy. And as they say, the rest is history.
- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
That is so funny. So tell me a little bit more about the band here. How close were you guys to actually going somewhere with this? Was this?
- James Robert Lay
in my mind in my mind like i had a path like i always have a path like i have a path right now for my future my path with the band was to go out to southern california and get on warp tour like that was it'd be a side show obviously and i think what was really inspiring to me in in hindsight was i remember going to a club here in houston called numbers and they had so many big acts come through. But we went to a show, me and a friend in college. It was a band, not a lot of people know them. It's MXPX. They're out of the Northwest punk band. And who was opening for them that night was Good Charlotte. Good Charlotte. Really? Yes, and it was Joel and Benji. And after the show, my friend and I went to this Taco Cabana across the street from Numbers. and guess who was in there it was joel and benji's when we had some time that's awesome before before before they hit it big before paris hilton and nicole richie and all of that fame that came with what they they experienced it was just joel and benji eating tacos in uh taco cabana across from numbers that is so funny so bringing this back to business for a moment you
- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
said like you pawned your guitar and your all your equipment and stuff like that so you like you almost stopped being a musician at some point. You started being a business person. You started going to business for yourself. What lessons come forward to you from your time as a front man for a punk band that actually are applicable to what you do or what you did at first then, but also today.
- James Robert Lay
Yeah, that's a fantastic question and one that I really have never been asked. So I always appreciate new questions. Hey, all right. Lessons learned. First and foremost, you got to have some type of cash flow, period. If you don't have cash flow, there is no business. And the faster that you can go out and create that cash flow, the better your future success will be. I think about like the early days of the web design shop, literally just going kind of business to business. Do you need a website? Do you need a website? Do you need a website? And this was early internet once again.
- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
So now you're knocking doors.
- James Robert Lay
I was making a phone call to go chambers of commerce in. hated every minute of it, but I knew it was what was needed to get to the next level and to have that, that survival. I think I still have some of that in me, like, you know, even 21 years later, I still have that kind of that grit. Cause I think you just, you either have that or you don't. I think that's one of those things that's just, maybe it's more of a nature thing. I think the other lesson that you can apply is. you got to play the small stages first and be okay with playing the small stages first. Everyone wants to go play the big stage. Everyone wants to speak on the big stage at a conference or an event. You got to play the bars. You got to play the dive bars and you got to be okay playing in front of, you know, a couple of drunk people and they'll clap for you. Take the applause and just suck it up buttercup because that's just part of life. of the game, whether it be in the music world, whether it be in business, whether it be in the speaking world, you gotta be comfortable playing the side shows, the side gigs. That's how you, that's how everyone gets started. Those that have the courage and the, and really, I think the commitment to continue to see beyond that and have the vision. That's what gets you out of some of those more challenging times.
- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
Got it. I love to play the small stages, play the bars. I think that's just incredible. the one other one thing I wanted to ask you about this kind of beginning of your career if you will so you like this girl and she came to your shows and everything like that I think she might have liked you too in this case but uh it's it's one of these things where you know you are still sorry for me I mean, horse apiece, that is not usually the way women feel sorry for their future husbands. Somebody marries up and somebody settles. That's what I've been told. So at such a young age, you pivoted here. You could have been heads down and like, man, I'm going to be on that stage at Warped Tour. How did you decide to break that cycle and go away from that? What triggered you to take the exit, if you will?
- James Robert Lay
that's a that's another fantastic question and i really appreciate where we're going with this because you're making me think and it's it's this is a different conversation than i've ever had on a podcast once again if i look back at my life i have had some pivots along the way that's a great observation with this like okay i walked away from this particular path and then just went down this this new path here There was a poster my freshman year of high school that has stuck with me till this day. It was Robert Frost, Two Roads to Virgin and Yellowwood, and I took the one less traveled, and that has made all the difference. And I always looked at that poster, and I thought to myself, it had two paths. One path went to the left, and one path went to the right. and I was never interested in taking either path because the path was already paved. And it was like, that's no fun. Let's go down the middle and let's blaze a new trail and see what's down there. And if you've ever gone off a trail, it can sometimes get pretty painful. And so I, I kind of. I appreciate that. Like, like the pain is okay because I know the pain is part of the growth process. Growth does not happen in the comfort zone. Growth happens when there's some level of discomfort and that's going to vary from, from adventure to adventure. But I made the pivot. because I made the pivot. Like that's what I knew I needed to do. That's what I wanted to do. And that's what I was committed to do. And you talk about this girl, we ended up getting married and the business, you know, we got married in 2006. And so in 2012, the business was about 10 years old at that point. And we'd been married for about six years. And she comes up to me and says, it's the business or the family. And I knew that that was another point. that I was going to have to make a decision. And once again, two paths diverge in a yellow wood, and I took the one less traveled. And I think that poem has a bit of irony because you have a path to the left and a path to the right, but the path less traveled is the path down the middle. It's the path that no one is choosing to take. And so when she gave me, well, you can have the family or have the business, you got to figure your life out. I said, no, I'm going to take the path down the middle. I'm going to figure out to get them both. But it was a painful process. I needed some help. I brought an outside advisor in and he was the one who showed me the new path that I could take. But at the end of the day, it was me to let go of what I knew to let go of myself, to essentially die to my, my past so that I could create space for the future self. Wow.
- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
B2B Business Class is sponsored by Westport Studios, your beacon for B2B podcasting. At Westport Studios, we've helped companies just like yours build podcasts that unlock relationships that run deep. We're talking about the kind of deep relationships that build lasting business partnerships and drive six-figure annual deals. We're talking about the kind of deep that turns your guests into friends and opens your network to a completely new world. We're talking the kind of deep. where you want to introduce your podcast agency to your mom because she knows they've been such a big help to your career. Yeah, we're talking that deep. So whether you have an existing show or are looking to start from scratch, we'll help you create a B2B podcast you love that builds both deep relationships and impacts your bottom line. Sound like the kind of deep you're interested in? Visit us at westportstudiosllc.com. Now, back to the show. And actually, you rolled right into the next topic I wanted to talk about because, you know, there was a time where this lifestyle business of yours of consulting banks and things like that, this almost cost you everything, as you just described. And I think that is such a huge warning to people in the B2B space that a lot of these things, whether you are a podcast agency owner like myself, a banking consultant like yourself, a plumber, an electrician, a realtor, all of these are lifestyle businesses. And. I think it's a huge warning as to what happened to you for other folks out there who get so absorbed in their career that they don't remember what is really important. And in your case, that's your wife and now your four kids, who I do want to talk about here real quick. I've only picked up pieces about how awesome the, the laylings are, if you will, via your show. But I know you've got a couple of cellists in there and one very capable young lady who uses chat GPT like a pro because y'all tackled a school project together on that, which was really great. So given the story you just told about almost losing all of this, how does being a dad change the way that you see your business as a lifestyle job?
- James Robert Lay
You know, there's some leadership tied to this. I would say for my first two kids, I was not a good leader. When my wife made that statement, it's the business or the family. We had just had our second child. And in hindsight, in retrospect, I was not really there as a father. I was there physically.
- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
Sure. Presence, but not.
- James Robert Lay
present present right but but that that mental and truth be told i still have some challenges with that today my mind is a very active mind i i do have the gift of add um so to have a hundred percent focus on something is very challenging but i will tell you through uh getting therapy through counseling, through coaching, my leadership has increased over the years. My abilities, I would say as a father have also increased over the years. My presence as a father has increased over the years. And I'm a big believer, like leading others as a gift, but you have to learn to lead yourself before you can lead others. And that is a skill that can be practiced. You're probably going to fail or you're going to skin your knees. You might break a bone. You might even get a compound fracture along the way, but don't, don't give up. Use the past failings. as fertile soil and think that you're just planting seeds for future growth with those failings, whether it be as a entrepreneur, as a leader, even as a father. And, you know, when it comes to the kids, I've learned so much from them about myself as much as I've been able to teach them and show them some, you know, the path forward from, from what I know. And together, we're all growing and getting better.
- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
Awesome. One of the things you said about was leadership and leading your kids. And I recall us talking a little while ago and you said one of the things you wanted to teach your kids and kind of lead them towards was creating value. Now, if I recall correctly, your kids are between about ages like eight and 13. So I'm going to say, how do you get buy in from a 10 year old to do this?
- James Robert Lay
Well, you, you lead them, you show them, for example, they want to go buy something.
- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
Okay.
- James Robert Lay
And you're like. well, why, why do you want to go buy this? Cause I want it. Okay. That's fine. You can want what you want, but my recommendation is you take a week and determine whether or not it's something that you really want. And a lot of times, nine times out of 10, a week will go by and they'll forget whatever that they wanted to buy. And a lot of it is, you know, I think the Amazon perspective of, Oh, it's there. You just click one, click to buy. Then it shows up. They see that with mom and dad, but you're wanting to teach delayed gratification that, you know, good things, if you will come to those who wait, I think in a world of where everything is instant, delayed gratification is, is a great lesson, but in regards to value creation, it's like, okay, fine. You want to go buy something. Well, you go make the money. You go figure out how, cause we don't do allowance with our kids. and if you want something, you got to go figure out how to go create value for someone else, and I'm so proud that this summer, they really did their first full entrepreneurial venture. They had combined their money, the two oldest kids had combined their money to buy a snow cone machine off of Amazon with some syrups, and they set up a snow cone stand in front of our house. Not the lemonade stand, but the snow cone stand. and i would be all over that well the logic was is there there was more perceived value because we live in houston and it's right hot as hell there's more perceived value with a snow cone than there is lemonade and believe it or not they did fantastic and and they learned so much through that experience around value creation that their income you is based upon the value that they create for other people. So now they're even thinking about, okay, the holidays, what can we do? How can we create value for others during the holidays? So they've been watching some YouTube videos on how to make holiday soaps. And it's, you know, as a recording,
- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
it's super cool.
- James Robert Lay
And then I think too, they learned a great lesson of like cells and value creation because they had a snow cone stand, but they had a lot of people drive by. So they're learning the value of rejection, like rejection. is it's okay. People are going to drive by, people are going to pass you by. People are going to tell you, no, not personal. It's just, it is what it is. But I said, you know, what could you do even better the next time that you go out and do the snow cone stand? And so we had this fantastic discussion. And one of the things that, that I'm going to be helping them with is setting up a QR code, setting up a very simple form. going and leaving some flyers on the door saying that we're going to set up a snow cone stand on Saturday between the hours of, you know, one to two or two to three, whatever it might be. Would you like to preorder a snow cone? So we're going to test the preordering.
- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
This is so cool.
- James Robert Lay
And to see if there's more value to be created, if someone can preorder. So there's a, there's just, you know, I think. I did not get this experience. I had the very painful experience. I did not come from an entrepreneurial family. One of the books that really changed, two books changed the course of my life, which was the millionaire next door and rich dad, poor dad. Yep.
- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
And yeah.
- James Robert Lay
So if you read them, you know that this is more mindset. Then it is. business. You learn the mindsets at an early age. It'll save you some pain down the road. Even right now, I'm really into reading books from the early 1900s, late 1800s. The Power of the Mind, for example, As a Man Thinketh, fantastic book written in 1905. The Power of the Mind. I think right now, for me, coming from a digital world, we must be mindful of our minds. We must master our minds. The most important technology to master now, right now in the age of AI, I do think it is the mind.
- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
I agree. I completely agree. So as these, as you know, these young entrepreneurs that you're raising age,
- James Robert Lay
thoughts on college for these people hmm it's a great question maybe a bit of a controversial topic hit it not a fan not a fan of college i have an undergrad in mis i have a an mba in retrospect i question the value of my mba And people are like, oh, it's the networking. I'm like, I've done so much more networking outside of this through the podcast. In hindsight, the podcast that we've collaborated on, I've met so many more people that way than I have through my MBA. So podcasting, perhaps, from a networking, far more valuable for far more value creation than a traditional MBA. And I think, too, the world is transforming at such a rapid pace that the educational model, whether it be, you know, elementary, junior high, high school, college, postgraduate, it was built in the late 1800s, the early 1900s. It was essentially for like, let's just create some subservient factory workers to not question anything, to do what they're asked, to show up on time. and it is the anti kind of entrepreneurial world. And granted, I take the path less taken in a lot of areas of life. Now, you know, I have one son. He, beautiful creative mind, ADD like me, hates school. I'm okay with that. He loves to learn, but he loves to learn what he's interested in. he has an engineering mind the 3d models the 3d models that he builds out of cardboard to literally to scale he's done titanic he has done aircraft carriers he's done airplanes trucks and they're all just there's no there's no pattern there's no model to model it's just in his mind what he sees you and the way he's crafting that, I'm like, listen, if you do want to go and be an engineer, you're probably going to have to go to college.
- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
Yeah.
- James Robert Lay
But don't get sucked into that, that path of go to college, rack up, you know, a hundred, $200,000 worth of debt, come out and try to get to the other side. I'm really trying to instill entrepreneurial values, whether or not they become an entrepreneurial is going to be their choice. But if they have the entrepreneurial value, even within an organization, they can have a positive impact. They can create value for others because they know that, that they're looking for opportunities to create value. I think when you, when you train the mind to look for opportunities to create value, you're taking a proactive stance in the relationship that you have with people. and not a reactive one. And that proactive stance and relationship with people will always give you somewhat of an edge because you're seeing things that other people cannot see because they're just passive and they're reactive.
- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
Right. And I think that that's, you know, I wish I could have had this conversation with you 20 years ago for myself, because that would put me at 17 years old and saying, Hey, Rob, maybe you shouldn't go to college in this case. And that's nothing against higher education. Higher education is a wonderful thing. I have so many amazing connections in that industry. who are going to appear on this show later this year. But it's one of those things where I know it, that's not the way I've learned. And I know that me being in business, and I'm sure for your kids too, especially your oldest son, who you mentioned is this hands-on kind of guy, I think that's outstanding.
- James Robert Lay
We're about to see an explosion of the trade craft going forward in the age of AI. and the trade craft could be digital trade kind of like with podcasting right something like i do yep exactly or it could be plumbing electricity hvac those are like ai proof jobs yeah no kidding ai can't turn a wrench yeah and if you if you understand once again value creation what are the, and what is, what, what is value creation? It's, it's the ability and the skill to identify common problems, causing common people pain, and then provide them with a solution and a path forward beyond those pains. If someone's toilet is clogged up, if someone's water is not running, that's a pain point. People want that solved ASAP. Right away.
- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
Yep. Absolutely. You know, I have, having just talked about this entire family and how you see, you know, your, your kids going, growing, going and growing and how you see yourself going and growing, you know, you have one of the best views on the world I've ever run across my friend uh you close your show with every time you know it's changed a little bit over the years because I mean I did really enjoy when it was be well do good and wash your hands because there was pandemic going on but you close it right now with be well do good and be the light and that is so feel good to me, but also for your listeners. But you also look at the world, and I think this has kind of bled into a couple of our previous conversations here. You look at this all through a lens of stoicism. And that is not just in your conversation, but it's also when you write. You released your book, Banking on Digital Growth, back in 2021. And there's a new one, Banking on Change, coming up here soon. And for those listeners who might be looking to tell their business story or share their business knowledge, tell me how you arrived at the point to determine that you had enough to write a book.
- James Robert Lay
You know, it goes back to 2012. It goes back to 2012 when my wife told me that you had to make a choice between the family or the business. And I said, I'm going to win it both. and I brought an advisor in. His name was David C. Baker, and he's worked with a lot of agencies over the years. And he came in, and he said, you need to blow your firm up and start over. You've been doing this for a decade. Elevate yourself. Yeah, it was a very emotional time in my life. But he said, you need to write a book. You're going to write a book. And in hindsight, I question him saying that. did it plant a seed in my subconscious mind that took from 2012 to when I finally made the commitment? I was on Greg McKenzie's podcast and it was in January and he said, Hey, what are you gonna do this year? So this is the year I'm going to write the book. And I'm like, it was, it almost just came out. Like I wasn't thinking like it was my subconscious now just coming out and being conscious. And when I put that out into the world, I'm like, shit, I got to do this now. Like, like I've made this public. I have to follow through. And so when, when did I realize I had enough to write a book? It was when I had the courage and the confidence, I would say, just myself to be able to collect my thoughts in a way that I could communicate them to create more value at scale. for people who I might not ever work with and just give away everything that I've learned, everything that I know through my own little life experience, which in the grand scheme of things is nothing more than just a grain of sand. But if that grain of sand can go on to positively impact, you know, a hundred or a thousand or a hundred thousand or a million or 10 million or a hundred million or even a billion other grains of sand over the course of time, let's write a book and let's not just write one. let's write another one yeah and you mentioned the second book banking on change well i've already framed out the third book banking on expertise because i think particularly in this age of ai where knowledge is knowledge has the potential and it maybe already has become commoditized like if you think about knowledge becoming democratized in the 14, 1500s with the rise of the Gutenberg printing press, knowledge became democratized. You know, everything was being written now and everyone, we were disseminating knowledge in ways that we had not seen before. Well, now, you know, you plug in a chat GPT, you can know anything and everything. The problem though, I feel is it lacks experiential context. And this is our unique growth ability, if you will, as human beings. We are horrible like data processors, but we are fantastic experience makers. And I've learned this from my time with Dan Sullivan, strategic coach. Our ability to not just have experience, but then to share that experience with someone else. and provide that other person perspective. Once again, let's go back to some relatively recent ancient knowledge. This was what was being written about in the early 1900s, 1920s, 1940s. Napoleon Hill wrote prolifically around the idea of the mastermind. The mastermind creates an exponential effect. When you bring minds together who share a common purpose to create value for other people, because you're sharing your experience and I'm sharing my experience. And through that, we're creating a new experience and we're seeing things from a different lens. I'm not sure if AI is, is going to have that ability unless it reaches full consciousness. Even then the key term with that is artificial.
- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
Intelligence. Yes. I got you.
- James Robert Lay
It's artificial. And if you think about like artificial sweetener,
- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
is that good for you really like we kind of come back and we look at like what happened like with the whole aspartame thing and and the correlation between that is artificial anything good i think that's where like writing a book allows us to capture our experience to then create value for other people at massive scale you And the same is true for a podcast. I think there's a strong correlation between podcasting and writing a book because through the conversation, it's a sharing of experiences that's going to go on and create value for other people that we may not ever even have the opportunity to help or make money from. Here's the thing. Don't worry about that. Worry about creating value first and just if that's your primary focus, I believe over time... the money will come.
- James Robert Lay
Yes.
- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
Because I know whenever I was like in a really dark place in my life, I was so focused on making money and not creating value. And that created a lot of pain for myself and people around me.
- James Robert Lay
That's definitely a landmine to avoid, I think, especially for somebody who's earlier in their entrepreneurial journey like myself. I like that, man. That's great. So it's been fantastic to have you here on the show. Before we bring this episode to the gate, though, I do want to ask you, who is the person outside of B2B that has influenced your B2B success the most?
- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
There's a couple people. I mentioned one, Napoleon Hill. Yep. And his writing. William Waddles and his writing back in the day. My father-in-law, who was an entrepreneur, he came over here from Lebanon, Syria back in the 1950s and has truly lived the American dream, if you will. And I'd say my time, too, in Strategic Coach with Dan Sullivan and what he's been able to do to bring together a bunch of, I guess you could call them misfits.
- James Robert Lay
Yeah.
- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
That don't necessarily fit into other places in society because the entrepreneur is, it's a very different mind. They see the world differently. And I've always found myself kind of even growing up struggling to fit in and that created some issues, but I'll never forget when I first joined strategic coach. back in 2017. And it was, I think the irony of it is, is my strategic experience did not just start in 2017 when I formally joined it. David C. Baker had been a member of strategic coach. Blair ends with when without pitching had been a member of strategic coach. Sure. Mark O'Brien, who I worked with over at newfangled had been a member of strategic coach. So it was almost like I was getting this. insight. And then I said, you know what, let me go check this thing out for myself. And I'll never forget my first meeting up in Toronto, called my wife. I go, I finally found my people. And that moment, it's like, once again, we're human beings and we're not designed to be alone. We need community around people who share common vision, common values, common beliefs, because otherwise... When you're alone, particularly on a journey like we are, like you are, trying to get something started, you got to surround yourself with like minds. Because being alone, it'll bring you down. If you're out on the ocean and you're alone, you're not going to make it. It's like the old African proverb, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.
- James Robert Lay
And I love that one, man. That is absolutely fantastic. And what a great note to close things on. James Robert, I want to thank you so much, my friend, for being here for our inaugural episode of B2B Business Class. It was just great to have you here.
- Robb Conlon (Announcer)
Rob, like I said, it's a pleasure and it's just an honor to be able to share space and to share time with you to create value for those who are listening today.
- James Robert Lay
Definitely. And listener, if you want to find out more ways to learn and grow from this guy right here, James Robert, and of course, the Digital Growth Institute, those links are in the show notes. Be sure to catch James Roberts podcast, Banking on Digital Growth on both YouTube, which is a new thing for you guys, I know, and your favorite podcast app. Thanks for joining us for B2B Business Class. For more, subscribe and follow us on your favorite podcast platform. And if you'd be so kind, drop us a review. We'd really appreciate it. If you're watching or listening on YouTube, hit that subscribe button and the bell button for notifications for all of our content. B2B Business Class is a production of Westport Studios. Views and opinions expressed by participants of the show are those of the individuals and may not reflect the views of Westport Studios. Got a great topic to discuss or know someone who would make a great guest? Connect with Rob, your host, via LinkedIn or through b2bbusinessclass.com. We'll catch you next time with another great conversation on how to make your B2B career take off.
