- Speaker #0
Humans say that the truth matters more than belonging. Belonging matters more than the truth. And when you're a tribe, as you cannot say these things, then the truth doesn't matter. Welcome to It's Both,
- Speaker #1
the podcast for people living in the gray. I'm your host, Nikki P, a therapist and storyteller who believes that life isn't either or. It's both. And each week we dive into real stories about holding multiple truths, building resilience, and making sense of life's messy middle. Today I am honored to welcome Paula Stone-Williams. Paula is an internationally known speaker, author, and pastoral counselor whose journey of self-discovery and gender transition has touched countless lives. Paula shares the complexities of identity, authenticity, and belonging, while also challenging us to think deeply about privilege, misogyny, and the narratives that shape our understanding of gender. Paula opens up about her personal and professional journey, from her years in church leadership, through profound loss and transformation, to her life now as an advocate for compassion, inclusion, and truth. So let's jump in. Welcome, Paula. It's so good to have you here.
- Speaker #0
It's good to be with you.
- Speaker #1
I'm very honored and excited to talk to you today. And... I'm so excited for everybody to get to hear a little bit about your story. And before we jump in, I would love it if you could tell everybody a little bit about who Paula is. Sure.
- Speaker #0
I am a speaker on issues related to gender equity. I do that all over the world. I also am a pastoral counselor. That's what my doctorate is in. I also coach speakers. I coach speakers for the largest TEDx in North America. I'm also mayor pro tem here in Lyons, Colorado, which is vice mayor in most other states. I've always been a bit of a Renaissance person doing lots and lots of different things.
- Speaker #1
It is a lot of things. How do you balance all of those things?
- Speaker #0
You know, when I was in, I think, my second master's program, I had a professor who said, you're not ever going to be able to do just one thing. You need to figure out how to do many things because people will tell you you can only do one. He, at the time, was a megachurch lead pastor and the university president in two different states. And it was great advice. And I just... you know, learn to manage it over the decades.
- Speaker #1
And outside of kind of those things that you do, what is a little bit more, like who is Paula kind of beneath those things, things that you like a little bit about your personality?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I'm not sure I would know how to answer that because I think all of us are in a state of becoming. If we in fact feel like we have become, well, then we're dead. If not literally, functionally. What I was was a nonprofit CEO for 35 years, a national leader in an evangelical denomination, transitioned genders 12 years ago, and lost all my jobs, my pension, all my friends, and had to create a new life from scratch. And for me, it's done far, far better than it does for most transgender people. I've done three TED Talks that have had over 10 million views. I've had a bestselling book out. as a woman, what I learned about power, sex, and the patriarchy after I transitioned. A conversation tomorrow with my agent over my new book proposal, which is when their enemy is you responding with an open mind, a curious heart, and a receptive soul. And looking to see if Simon & Schuster wants to pick that back up. They did my first book, or whether we'll go with a different company. So yeah, that's kind of who I am.
- Speaker #1
I love what you said, that we are all in a state of becoming.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
And it's funny, I think, because I myself struggle with that question. You know, I always kind of lead with the things that I do. And I'm like, well, who am I? I don't really know. I mean, I think I know, but also she changes all the time. So I think you gave language to that.
- Speaker #0
I remember as a kid staring in the mirror and just staring and saying, who really are you? I don't know that many five or six year old kids do that. Maybe. I don't know. I did.
- Speaker #1
I guess kind of moving into our conversation, talk to me about, was that sort of the first time you started to question those bigger questions of life? Or was that always sort of a part of your soul?
- Speaker #0
I don't really remember ever being at ease with being here on this earth. I think I always was questioning. Just an old soul, I think. And probably always will be questioning. I knew from the time I was maybe... I know it's before I was five. I knew I was transgender because we moved at five, and I have very distinct memories of wanting to wake up a girl before we moved when I was five. So somewhere four or five, I first began to really focus on it. And it really was not an obsession, probably until high school, junior high, through elementary school. It's like I say in my first TED Talk, I thought I could choose, but I found out I couldn't. I didn't hate being a boy. I just knew I wasn't one.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Did you ever, were there times when, through your childhood, where you voiced that? Like what you were feeling and thinking about to anybody close to you?
- Speaker #0
Not in my fundamentalist environment. You know, when you grow up in any form of fundamentalism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, any of the desert religions, forms of fundamentalism, you know the boundaries. You know to kill your soul very, very early in life because the real you is not going to be acceptable. And that's for everyone.
- Speaker #1
Yeah,
- Speaker #0
yeah. You don't have to be... a part of the career community for them to be through.
- Speaker #1
Talk to me about how those feelings and thoughts changed over time. Like the, I don't hate being a boy, but I know I'm not. And from childhood into your high school and college years, like talk to me about how that experience changed for you through that time.
- Speaker #0
It's a lot. I would refer anybody who's interested in the details of that to go ahead and read the memoir because I go into it in great detail there. What happened with me is often what happens with people with gender dysphoria, which is what the DSM-5 calls it, is that with the passing of time, it gets more and more problematic. It gets worse and worse. That's why there's a 41% suicide attempt rate. And so the older you become, the more problematic it is. And that would be the case for me. I don't think it really became problematic in a way that endangered my health until after the kids were in the house.
- Speaker #1
Was there something about that time that changed, that shifted that for you?
- Speaker #0
You know, I think there comes a time, the call toward authenticity has all the subtlety of a smoke alarm, and eventually decisions have to be made. And so I think for all of us, there comes that movement from the first half of life. In the first half of life, we're all building resume virtues. And in the second half of life, we're building eulogy virtues. The first half of life, we're serving our ego, and the ego is interested in just two things. power and safety. That's it. The ego is a tyrant for power and safety. Once you get to the second half of life, you're able to get beneath the ego, if life has been good to you, and get to the level of soul, or what Carl Jung called the level of self. And that's, I think, where you begin asking the deeper questions. That's where you have fewer friends, but deeper friendships. That's when you no longer look to others to find answers to questions, but look deep inside your own soul. And I think it's also the time where you realize, If you experience something that could be identified as a call, whether religious or not, you really don't have any choice. You must answer them. That comes from most people. Most people that hits in the 50s, occasionally you'll find somebody where it hits in the 40s. Others, maybe not until their 60s, but most often the
- Speaker #1
50s. And for you, were you in your 50s at that time?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, probably. Yeah. Well, for sure. Yes.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. And I would imagine, you tell me if I'm wrong. I would imagine there would be a feeling and like that would be a really hard culmination of feelings to kind of come to that point where were you feeling fearful, but also this freedom, like fearful to share that, but also a freedom and this is who I am.
- Speaker #0
You cannot allow yourself to answer a call at that stage in life if you do not have enough ego strength. Ego strength is very different from ego need. Ego need is someone who does not have adequate. ego strength, someone who's never had a sense of safety or adequate power to control their own lives. Only if you have those things do you have the capacity to answer the deeper questions. It's in Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Unless you can work your way through the first four, you don't get to the fifth. Or Fowler's stages of faith, same thing, you don't get to stage five if you haven't gone through more traditional approaches to faith. And then into questioning from periods of disenchantment have to take place before you can come back to re-enchantment, which is stage five.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. It seems like you had a lot of, I'm trying to think of the right word here, confidence and strength. I mean, you must have to be able to step into that space. Like when you say, I answered this call and these are the things that I had. But I would imagine there would be a lot of, even with that strength, conflicting.
- Speaker #0
thoughts and ideas tied to it well the call toward the hero's journey which is ubiquitous to all cultures, all ages, all languages, all ethnic groups. It's always the same. An ordinary citizen is called on the extraordinary journey under the road of trials, and initially they reject the call because it's a call under the road of trials. Nobody willingly goes onto the road of trials. But now you're miserable because you know you've been called, and so a spiritual guide comes into your life, a Yoda, if you will, that gives you the courage to answer the call under the hero's journey. And then sure enough, you're on the road of trials. And then invariably on the hero's journey, things get worse. You find yourself completely lost in a dark cave. It's Dante's Divine Comedy. In the middle of the road of my life, I awoke in a dark wood where the true way was wholly lost. It's Shakespeare's Macbeth. Life is but a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury signifying nothing. John of the Cross's Dark Night and the Soul. And this is an important... part of the call out of the hero's journey, because this is when you discover you are utterly lost, and it's okay because lost is a place too. And you realize that if you are willing to sit for whatever time you need to sit in a place called lost, that it will open up to new life and new light. You find yourself back in the ordinary road of trials, which now feels like nothing, given what you've gone through. And then in the hero's journey, When the hero finally gets to the Holy Grail, they know by the time they get there what they have known since they were in the lost place. That is that the Holy Grail is not their destiny. Their destiny is to take the Holy Grail and bring it back and give it as an offering to those for whom they have departed. Only then are they free to move on. So I don't think many of us are able to answer that call unto the hero's journey until a little bit later. in life. Occasionally, you find that person who was able to do it very early in life. Alexander Hamilton would be an example of that. I had a personal friend who did the same thing at maybe age 20. And in both of those situations, you know, you could use the line, the man was nonstop. It's as if those people knew they were not going to have the same number of years, the three score and 10 or whatever it is that humans have gotten. Throughout history, well, recent history, they somehow are answering a call to something where they know they've got to get more done more quickly. For most people, though, it doesn't come until a little later. And yes, there's always a struggle. In my case, the very specific struggle was losing all my friends, all my income, my pension. Far more important than those was losing my marriage and losing what our family was before as compared to what it is now. What we are now is different than what we were before. and probably more difficult than what we were before, though we all are getting along just fine.
- Speaker #1
And from what I know of your story, thinking of, I think, some people who might not have read your memoir or heard your TED Talk, you were working at a church, correct? You were in church leadership?
- Speaker #0
I was the national director of a church planting organization. I was also on the preaching team of two megachurches. I was also the editor-at-large of a national. a church-related magazine. And all those jobs were gone within 24 hours of coming out. And in all 50 states, you're going to be fired for being transgender, at least not right now. But in all 50, you can be fired if you're trans and you work for a religious corporation. And the only one of those that was not religious was the magazine. They had to keep me on staff for eight more months, but they immediately pulled my name from the byline and pulled my columns.
- Speaker #1
I'm so sorry. And I think it just, it breaks my heart that you becoming, and you talked about this hero's journey, and you get to that place and you're sharing who you are and you're being vulnerable and you're saying, this is who I am. And then to just immediately have, it seems like every facet of your life at that time, immediately gone or starting to go.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. My life is sparked by discontinuity, not by continuity. There's a marvelous conference held in California every year, every fall, I think. called the End Well Conference that's primarily for physicians doing palliative care or hospice workers. And I spoke for that, I think maybe it was during COVID, probably 2021, because there's a chapter in my book, Dying Before Dying. I have the unique experience of having completely left one life and had to completely start all over.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. And talk to me a little bit about about what was that starting over for you? I mean, what do you even start with when it feels like everything is almost instantly gone or changing? I mean, where did you choose to start from there?
- Speaker #0
In my case, I brought my male entitlement. privilege with me. So life had been good to me and had given me a lot of resources. So you arrive with the resources of an excellent education and a lot of corporate success and an ability to spot opportunities and then to leverage those opportunities. It's interestingly far more easy, not easy. Trans women have an easier time doing that than trans men. And that's because trans women were able to gain all the knowledge a man gains and the world is going to provide for you. And trans men grew up as women, and therefore that sense that they needed to always defer, that they had to defer their dreams for other people's dreams. So for them to learn to give themselves permission to be ambitious, for instance, is difficult. For trans women, it is... something that we bring with us. And the more privilege we've had, for most of us, the easier it is to create a new life on the other side. So I arrived as a capable writer who'd already written seven books. I arrived as a national speaker who'd already spoken to crowds of 20,000 on a regular basis. I arrived as a CEO with 35 years of experience as a CEO. in a nonprofit that grew very, very rapidly. I came into this body with a knowledge of religion in America that most people don't have. I, in fact, used to teach a doctoral course, Current Trends in American Religion. So I was able to leverage and trade on all those. Is it far more difficult? Of course, yes, far, far more difficult. And there are areas in which I simply am not able to carry out my... knowledge that is not going to be appreciated in this world. For instance, I've done probably 10,000 disk tests over the years. And the disk is a testing tool that shows your preference in working with other human beings. It's by far the most accurate. It has a 0.88, 0.81 to 0.88 percent accuracy, which no other similar test has, not the Myers-Briggs, certainly not the Enneagram. And I know I'd like the back of my hand. But if you're a corporate exec, and you want to book somebody to do the disc in today's world, you can either book somebody who has good knowledge, who's not trans, or you can book somebody with excellent knowledge who's trans. I've not booked a single event in doing the disc since I transitioned because the negative to those who would book me of being trans cancels out the publicity. There are environments where that's not the case. But that's an example that... is, I think, probably the most salient because it's been complete and total. I can do it for our town board, or I can do it for a church board, or any of the non-profits I work for now, where I already have a sense of acceptance from those folks. But going into a corporate world cold, I can go in and talk about DEI. I can go in and talk about gender equity because I have a story no one else has. But there are others who can come in and talk about the disgust. Wow.
- Speaker #1
And I would imagine that's not the only way. I think when I heard you speak, I know you, I think you had mentioned how after transitioning, you would, you were in a room and you were with other leaders and they were wanting somebody to help mentor to give a speech and they were looking to bring in a man to do it when you were sitting right there and you were already this expert. And is it fair to assume that that has happened a lot since transitioning?
- Speaker #0
That's kind of which story do I want to pick when I speak on it? And do I want to use one that's a little older like that one? Or do I want to use one that happened last week, which I did last Sunday when I spoke? You know, you're constantly, constantly discovering that life is more difficult for women. That particular story is maddening because it was a very liberal, gay organization that is there to serve the LGBTQ plus community. So for that. kind of misogyny to make its way into the boardroom and for none of the women on the board to stand up and speak on my behalf. It was my first discovery that women do not empower one another. Men do empower one another. Women tend to see each other as competition. And that was my first rather stark experience of understanding them. At that point, I'd already done three TED Talks. I already was coaching the largest TEDx speaker, the speakers for the largest TEDx in North America. I think I'd already served as a speaker's ambassador for TED for the big international organization and probably already had. 20 clients who were coming to me for speakers coaching, including probably by that time, an Air Force general, a NPR reporter. But his assumption was that I couldn't have that kind of knowledge. One of the things that often happens with white men, particularly powerful white men, is when they see a woman in a room, they assume she's there because she has one particular talent or ability. that has given her the credentials to be in the room. And this was a good guy. I mean, I hold no animosity against him. We've had many conversations about it since that time. But in his mind, the reason I was there was because I was an expert in American religion. How could somebody who's an expert in American religion also be an expert in public speaking?
- Speaker #1
It's just, it's both heartbreaking and infuriating.
- Speaker #0
God, utterly infuriating.
- Speaker #1
And, you know, This might not be accurate, but is it almost harder for you because you have lived as a man and as a woman to see the other side and then come into after transitioning into a woman and being in these situations going, wait a minute, what? And that might be a wrong assumption, but I haven't seen the other side. I've received, right? But I haven't seen the behind the scenes curtain, so to speak.
- Speaker #0
It's not an experience I hear a lot. from other trans women. And I believe the reason for that is that many of them have a much more difficult time in their new gender than I do. For whatever reason, I have been very blessed by being received by the world as a woman. So I don't have people staring at me. I don't have anybody questioning whether I should be in a women's restroom or not. I experience the world as a woman. And the world treats me as a woman. And so my experience is a little bit unique that way, in that I was a very successful, powerful white man. And suddenly, I'm just seen as just another older woman. And so, yes, it is utterly maddening all day, every day. You know, my former wife and I are still close, and she just didn't feel like buying a new car, didn't like all the negotiation. I said, well, yeah, I'll do it for you. And she wanted a Toyota RAV4, which is what she has. So I went to the Boulder Toyota dealer, knowing exactly what her car was worth. And they did all the things they do, including taking your key, going looking at the car, driving around tiny bit, coming back and telling you, well, this is what your car is worth, and these are all the things wrong with you. And the number that the guy gave to me was literally half what the car was worth. He was offering me $5,000 for a car that was worth $11,000 or $10,500. And as soon as I saw it on the paper, I said, yeah, give me the key. And he said, oh, no, no, no, no. I mean, what do you need for it? I said, give me the key. And he wouldn't tend to back, oh, no, no, we can work this out. We can work this out. What do you need for it? And I said, give me the key. Still didn't get it to me. And I finally said, give me the, and I used a strong word, the black thing key. And he handed me the key and I walked out. And I went to the Subaru dealer across the way and they instantly offered me $11,000 for my car. You know, it was just absurd. And I can guarantee you as Paul, he probably would have started out at around $9,000 or $10,000. And it just would have. figured out that I knew what the car was worth and eventually would have offered that. But that's the kind of stuff that just drives me crazy.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. I mean, it makes sense because it drives me crazy, but then I haven't seen necessarily the other side. And so I go, well, maybe, I don't know, maybe I am raw or maybe they are right or maybe they do no more. It's like an act of working for me to come to that place where I have the confidence to look at a man and go no no I don't want that or that is not right or that is not accurate or actually I know better. That's a really hard thing to say.
- Speaker #0
And men have been encouraged to say it forever. And a woman, if she says it well, now she's just a bitch. You know, they're just, yeah, I have to be angry enough for it to happen.
- Speaker #1
And I think it's just, I'm trying to formulate my words here because every time I feel like we are getting a little bit further, I'm in a situation at. where I work also at a nonprofit. That is my daytime job. And there will often be times where I am not directly. My example of this is a leader of a very large, I won't say the name, but a very large nonprofit across many states. has met me multiple times, does not recall meeting me ever. And every time he is reintroduced to me, he asks for my counterpart, who is a male, to introduce me and tell a little bit about who I am and answer questions for me. And luckily, I'm in a space where I have a very supportive boss who's like, well, she can speak for herself. She can answer that. You've met her many times. She you can talk to that. But it's, I guess, in saying all that, how do you navigate? this constant barrage of assumption, of judgment, whether it be for maybe those that don't even know that you've transitioned, but just as you as a woman, and also those who do have biases based on transitioning. How do you navigate that consistently coming at you?
- Speaker #0
I don't have to navigate it all that much when it relates to being trans, except in environments where it's known. and where it's seen as negative. I'm not in many of those environments because they're not going to have me speak. So the corporations I'm speaking at are corporations, for the most part, that I'm not going to get misogynistic treatment, even if it's a Boeing or a Spirit Arrow. And in my other kinds of environments, like we were talking about a year and a half ago about running for office again, and I was talking to other city council members and our mayor. And she said, you're running again, aren't you? And I said, yeah. And she said, oh, good. I said, I mean, there's no guarantee I'll win this time. And she's like, what do you mean? I said, well, I mean, you know, the world's responding to trans people quite differently than it was two years ago. And she and the others almost in unison said, well, that's right. You always forget you're trans. You know, I am very fortunate in that that's the world I inhabit for the most part when I'm coaching other speakers. It never comes up. I mean, just virtually never. When I'm working with TED, it doesn't come up. I'm just lucky that way. In the environments where it does come up, I am, again, fortunate in that most people, if the subject comes up, they don't realize that I am the subject. And so for me to, which I reveal very quickly that I'm trans, I never try to hide it. It gets awkward for the person and I always kind of enjoy the awkwardness that... they're experiencing. I am speaking far more on the subject because better me than poor teenagers who do not have the ego strength to be able to do it. In fact, I have talked to folks at TED about doing another talk on it and the current anti-trans environment.
- Speaker #1
What would you say to those who might not have as supportive of an environment as you have and have had? What would you say to somebody who is experiencing a lot of this judgment?
- Speaker #0
I think. With most trans people, with trans men, it's not so much an issue. Most of them, if they choose to, can remain stealth. But with trans women, including trans teens who were identified male at birth, they pretty much need to move to where they're not going to receive that kind of treatment because no one can take the constant onslaught of being attacked day in, day out. I'm attacked as a public figure. Well, I'm attacked, yeah, as a public figure for issues having nothing to do with trans stuff. For instance, for being supportive of affordable housing in our very wealthy town. But I also am attacked as a trans person. And so I don't publish my, even on my website where I have the fact that I'm a therapist, I don't put my telephone number down because people who want to send hate mail know exactly how to get through. They even know the ways in which you can block all kinds of things with Apple products. But there are ways for things that have been blocked to get through anyway. They know exactly what those things are, what those ways are. Folks at Apple have got to know it too. It's like, come on, folks, you got to fix this stuff. Yeah, really.
- Speaker #1
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- Speaker #0
I'm thinking back to something that you said earlier, because it sounds like you are still very spiritual. You are still a big proponent of the church. Is that right?
- Speaker #2
Correct.
- Speaker #0
Talk to me a little bit about that and how these two things, like how have you found a new place in the church and with your experience and relationship with God? Because I also grew up in a very evangelical background. I am, of course, no longer a part of that. But it has been a very long road for me, and I didn't experience what you experienced, to kind of come back to the church, so to speak. And I'm still processing it, right, and finding my reconstruction, I should say, in that. But what does that look like for you and your life now?
- Speaker #2
I believe religion is good for the species. So I approach it not as a theologian, so much as a therapist, as an armchair philosopher or anthropologist, I suppose. We look at the history of our species. We did not take off as a species when we remained at the level of blood kin. Evolution did not really take hold when we remained at the level of blood kin. It wasn't until we moved from the level of blood kin to the level of pride. That's when civilizations began to develop, and we began making striking moves forward. What is it that brought us together as tribes? And most people assume it's our need for safety. It's not. It's our search for meaning. So you need look no further than Stonehenge or the bodies of Rapa Nui or burial mounds of indigenous Americans to understand what brought us together as tribes. We come together to search for meaning. There is no culture in the history of mankind that has not had robust religious communities. The problem is not religion. The problem is fundamentalism. Wherever you find it, all forms of fundamentalism. There is even non-sectarian fundamentalism. But fundamentalism is the problem, not religion.
- Speaker #0
Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's so true. And for you, what, so what does religion, what is that role in your life right now? What does that look like?
- Speaker #2
It means belief in religious communities. And in my case, because my rootedness is in Christianity, I choose to place, make my stand there. I also believe that the Christian story is unique among metanarratives in that it's the only metanarrative. metanarrative that's told from the perspective of the victim. It's told from the perspective of the loser. All other religious metanarratives are told from the perspective of the winner, of the oppressor, not the oppressed. And even Rene Girard, the anthropologist philosopher, who was not a Christian, was very taken by that as he talked about memetic theory, which is that those in power figure the best way to stay in power is identify enemies within the camp that they therefore can kick out of the camp. And therefore, they keep... the narrative of what's successful, what's not, who the victory is, who it's not. And that Christianity is the only meta-narrative that flies in the face of it. So ultimately, Jesus is what draws me. Jonathan Rauch's new book, Cross Purposes, is interesting because Rauch is a gay Jewish atheist, which he says numerous times in the book. And he wants to say it because he wants to juxtaposition that against the fact that in the book he says, who knew that Christianity was a load-bearing wall of American democracy. And he said, we will lose our democracy if we do not return to Jesus. He says the... Protestant Church on the far left has moved away from Jesus toward nebulous spirituality, and on the far right, they moved away from Jesus to Christian nationals. Said we've really got to get back to the core teachings of Jesus to love God, neighbor, and love self. And that's the kind of community that I'm very supportive of and we chat regularly and value. You happen to be fortunate that you live in a town that has a couple of... I also live in an area that has two of them. Most people do not. Most people don't have even one post-evangelical church. And by that, I mean a church that has the style, the music that we grew up with and became accustomed to, but has a different hermeneutic on how they understand scripture.
- Speaker #0
Yes, I think that's so beautifully said. And why do you think, from your experience at least, what is the push? from Christians, from fundamental, let me say, fundamentalist Christians against the trans community.
- Speaker #2
So E.O. Wilson was an interesting person who taught at MIT and Harvard. He won two Pulitzer Prizes. He was a sociobiologist, and his first Pulitzer Prize was in identifying that the key social unit for the species is not the nuclear family, but the tribe. He was the one who brought that into the realm of sociology. His second... was, Paul's surprise was in showing nine tribal species, and there were only nine, and he called them eusocial species. That's spelled E-U-S-O-C-I-A-L, eusocial species. And he said these nine are quite unique in that they have what Richard Dawkins would call a selfish gene, as every other species has a selfish gene. These nine also have a tribal gene. that they will, in fact, sacrifice themselves for the sake of the tribe. And eight of the nine have evolved exactly as one might expect. The tribe is functioning. Enemy comes into the camp. The tribe unites, defeats the enemy. Some members of the tribe die in the process, but the tribe itself, the species itself, survives. Life goes on. Said, unfortunately, the ninth eusocial species has evolved to believe in enemy is necessary for the tribe to survive. And where no natural enemy exists, they create one. He says, we don't get a hold of that. We lose the species as we know it, and we lose the planet as we know it. So we as a species have been creating enemies that don't exist for a long time. They will always be powerless groups that are a tiny percentage of the population that those who are in power can identify as threats to the system, back to Girard's memetic theory, and that they are the only ones who can eradicate. And we just happen to be the enemy du jour at the moment. It is just dumb luck. And I think it is dumb luck exacerbated by the LGBTQ plus community after marriage equality, overreaching and trying to force on culture, understandings, language. and perspectives that are not backed up by data. And what I just said in that last sentence has gotten me canceled in lots of left-leaning environments. They don't want to hear what they did, for instance, to contribute to the Supreme Court's Scrimati ruling a couple of weeks ago. That's a case that never should have been brought before the Supreme Court.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And you can say no, and you don't have to elaborate on those last few sentences, but I guess I hadn't thought of that. Could you talk a little bit more about that if you felt comfortable? If not, I totally agree.
- Speaker #2
I don't believe that we would have been chosen as the enemy, as we have been, had it not been for trying to force medical care on trans teens. Historically, the number of transgender people has been about 0.5%, one in every 200 people. Suddenly, the number is 1%, one and a half percent, three percent, some places five percent. Well, to a therapist or a sociologist, that's pretty interesting. Changes like that don't occur overnight. What's happening? Let's follow the data. And what the data tell us is not particularly helpful to the message of the far left. Because what the data tells us is that we go from a very tiny segment of the trans population regretting transitioning. to a significant percentage regretting transitioning, even if it's 5%, even if it's 3%. it is 10 times greater than it was previously. We also see that 66% of those who identify as non-binary are between 16 and 26 years of age. That means something. What does it mean? We do not know. We take a look at children who in their teen years are identifying as trans and those of us who are therapists, the very first question we want to ask is, what's the age of onset? If the age of onset is five or under, That person's trans. Always has been, always will be. You actually could medically treat them at 13. But what we see more and more of over the last seven, eight years is that the onset comes at puberty. When the onset comes at puberty, let's say you were identified as female at birth, then as a therapist, you have to ask the question, how much complex trauma is here? How much sexual abuse is here? How much body dysmorphia is here? Because a pretty simple answer to complex trauma, sexual abuse, or body dysmorphia would be to say, I'm not a girl, I'm a boy. And of those who are identifying as trans, 75% were identified female at birth. So what's happened in Europe is the Dutch protocol, which has been used since the 70s, is still in use. But most of the nations have pulled back on medical treatments except... except for cases that can very clearly be identified as trans before age 19. And here in the US, the left has taken an extremely negative perspective on that. But when you ask for more data, they don't give you data, they just scream louder. Well the right's been doing this for decades. It doesn't help us a bit. I think we have to look at the data. And I think we'll understand that there's a cultural phenomenon taking place that is, in fact, increasing the numbers of those who identify as trans during their teen years. Do we see an increase in the number of 35-year-olds identifying as trans? Not a bit. It still runs at a half a percent.
- Speaker #0
And I think I'm just, I'm kind of shocked that, like, how is this not being talked about more?
- Speaker #2
Because they shut it down pretty fast. And folks like me, unless you are in... positions I'm in, they're not willing to face the cancellation. You know, I was canceled from a prominent church in LA that apologized to the pulpit a week after I was there for having had me there. Though the day I was there, the audience gave me an embarrassingly longstanding ovation. And the next week they brought in a professor from UCLA to refute what I had said. Interestingly, a couple of months later, I spoke to about 150 physicians at UCLA, mostly pediatricians and psychiatrists, who were desperate to hear what I was telling them because it was, in fact, their experience. But I did not allow that to be recorded, nor were they willing to talk about it out loud because it turns out the left is just as eager to sacrifice such young as the right is eager to do so. I mean, it's sad when we... don't have the facts to back up our premise that we just yell louder instead of looking at the data. Maybe the data comes back showing that there is a large increase in the number of those who truly are trans and are non-binary and will remain that throughout their entire lives. It may well be the data shows that right now that we don't have the data to know.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Well, it's hard to imagine that anybody is going to refute wanting more data. Just I understand that people have a narrative, you have a goal, there's something you're wanting to accomplish or push or whatever. But it is hard to go, well, I want to know, like, I want to know what the truth is, right? I want to know what the data is showing. And I think that's just that's really, it's hard. It's hard to understand.
- Speaker #2
There's a basic issue. And you stated it. Humans say that the truth matters more than belonging. It's not so. Belonging matters more than the truth. And when your tribe says you cannot say these things, then the truth doesn't matter. So the World Professional Association of Transgender Helps, many of their leaders did not agree with their decision to not follow the data. And they left and would have been forced to leave, but they've not done it on their own and have been vilified within the organization they once were leading. It happens in every arena. It's back to the E.O. Wilson stuff. We create enemies that don't exist.
- Speaker #0
Well, and I think you just articulated very clearly why our, I'm not sure why I'm trying to be careful about how I say this because I don't care, why we are in the situation that we're in politically. Because people don't care about truth. They care more about belonging and tribe. And, you know, I think at my core, I've known that, but just the way that you articulated it, it helps me go, oh, okay. That is why.
- Speaker #2
We know this as therapists because clients who are abused will finally be ready to confront their perpetrator, often a member of the family. And they'll say, I know my family's going to back me up in this because they know it happened. And then you as a therapist have to be the one to say, likely not. because in the vast majority of cases, the family will not back up the person, though they know it to be true, because being a part of that system, corrupt as the system is, is more important to them than the truth. You see it happen most of the time.
- Speaker #0
From the research and from your experience, is there anything that can help us as humans? I don't want to say get around that. How do we move through that?
- Speaker #2
I'm not sure. I believe that there is a time when we've got to be looking at the data. I believe on the whole, we get through this issue via proximity and narrative. And what do I mean by that? We did in 25 years on marriage equality what it took us 150 years to do in slavery. How did that happen? Well, it happened, I believe, in fair measure through proximity and narrative. What do I mean by that? What is less threatening? than a comedic television show coming into your living room. And in the 1970s, All in the Family introduced being gay in a positive way. After that comes the scripted Ellen show, not the talk show, the scripted show, where the protagonist comes out as a gay person. After that, you have Will and Grace, where both protagonists are very actively involved. One straight, one gay, and they're given the names Will. and grace because the showrunners wanted to focus on will, the concept of will, and the concept of grace.
- Speaker #0
I didn't know that.
- Speaker #2
From there, you go to a modern family where one of the three major storylines is a gay couple. And then you go to today where you'll have a hard time finding a gay primary storyline because today people are incidentally gay. So that is the progression of how a culture comes to understand by seeing stories presented in a comedic form that this is not a threat. We need the same thing on the trans side. I've had a life rights deal with a company in Hollywood to do a three-season, 30-show story of my life that the whole thing's been outlined. First year has been arced out. The first show has been written. But frankly, they'll never get it funded in today's world. It's, I mean, they. you know, they'd still love to do it, but I'd place heavy money against it because nobody's going to fund that right now.
- Speaker #0
It's just heartbreaking and infuriating at the same time. It is maddening and heartbreaking. And I hate that because I think, you know, you're, you're absolutely right. Narrative and proximity, it makes a difference and it's impactful and stories in the media representation matters until you can get that. It is going to be hard to fight. The other narrative that is so loud and permeating all of social media, all of media, you know, I guess, period. It feels like it's going to be very hard to move that needle.
- Speaker #2
You know, I am very fortunate in that I get paid a lot of money to speak at corporations, universities, conferences. A lot of money for a single keynote speech. I've offered to go to Christian universities pro bono and stay for two or three days and do as many things as they want me to do. Which if I were to do for. companies, well, it would be more money than anybody would want to spend. I've had one university take me up on it and they got in all kinds of trouble for it and wanted to have me back, but then had to withdraw that request to have me back. But my perspective is if I can get in front of the kids, then they recognize that being trans is actually pretty normal.
- Speaker #0
And I know we've talked a lot about the multiple thoughts, feelings. beliefs, experiences that somebody can hold within themselves, the bothness or the tension. As you are in the stage that you're in now, what would you say is still the tension or the bothness of what you're experiencing now?
- Speaker #2
Yeah, I think I'm quite comfortable in saying that I come from the space between genders, from the liminal space between genders, from the borderlands subject. I don't have. a cisgender female experience. The world receives me as a woman. That's important to me. And it's much more comfortable than it was previously. But I'm quite comfortable coming from the land that is both male and female. I'm not, I would not say I'm non-binary because I am binary. I believe gender actually is binary. But I believe there are some of us who are, that also would be controversial in a way, but there are some of us who, while we live as one gender or the other, come from the liminal space between genders.
- Speaker #0
And is that, you said you're comfortable with that and that is where you feel most? you.
- Speaker #2
Yeah, that's who I am. Yeah. One of the things that a lot of people in the trans world talk about is their dead name. And I categorically reject it. As a therapist, I reject it. Because the name that you lived under for whatever period of time you were a male is what formed you. And if you reject its existence, you are rejecting you. And so I will instantly stop people who when I talk about my dead name. I am an integrated whole. I was all, I am full.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And what is one thing that you are still learning, processing right now in this space?
- Speaker #2
We believe that we are all of us, never going to slay all the dragons. Nikos Kazantzakis said, by the time you're 50, you have the face you deserve. You know, you hold this perspective when perfection is wrongly defined as it is when... from the Gospels when Jesus says, be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect. That word perfect doesn't mean perfect. That word means true to yourself as you were created. But we have this notion that we can maybe get rid of all our flaws. And to me, it's interesting to continue it at this age, and I'm older than dirt. Another thing, by the way, I don't usually say my age because age discrimination is a real thing. but it's interesting to me to be at this age and to realize that the things that got me in trouble at 28 and 38 and 58 still get me in trouble at this age. It is that to me as an ongoing learning process. That's fascinating.
- Speaker #0
Well, thank you so much. Thank you for sharing your story, your experience, being willing to be so vulnerable and open. And I think everything you have to say is so impactful. I think it matters. I think the more people that can. hear this and be exposed to all of your thoughts, your experiences, I think it is impactful and it's meaningful. So thank you. And kind of shifting gears as we wrap up something that I just ask all my guests to kind of end things is, could you share something that is ridiculous or relatable in your life? It could be a quirk, could be like, I don't put the suitcase on the bed. I don't know, it creeps me out. I don't like to touch the bottom of the pool. It's a weird thing. Makes no sense. No logic, but it's a little ridiculous.
- Speaker #2
Yeah, sure. I run. I've been running since 1979. I run six days a week, but that's actually not true. I really run seven days a week, but I just can't admit that I run every single day of the week. So I say that I run six days a week.
- Speaker #0
Really? Yeah. Why? I mean,
- Speaker #2
there might be maybe one day in a couple of months or one week in a couple of months where I don't run the seventh day. Well, because if I say I run seven days a week, well, now that's obsessive compulsive.
- Speaker #0
Oh, but you do, but you do run seven.
- Speaker #2
Most weeks I run seven days a week.
- Speaker #0
That's fair. I think that's, I think that's relatable. I mean, it's kind of funny, but it's also relatable.
- Speaker #2
Most of us, well, you know, my girlfriend does yoga every day of the week. And it's like, you know, it's like, well, I guess that makes us compatible. And I run while she does yoga. So, yeah.
- Speaker #0
There you go. See?
- Speaker #2
There you go. Yeah. If we had children together, it would be a very, it would not be a good thing. These kids would have no hope. They would all be obsessive compulsive. Oh,
- Speaker #0
well, thank you so much for being here. And I just, I really enjoyed our time together and I'm so grateful.
- Speaker #2
My pleasure.
- Speaker #1
I just want to say thank you so much to Paula for being here today. Her courage, wisdom, and willingness to hold space for complexity is such a gift. If you want to learn more about Paula's work, I encourage you to read her book, As a Woman. You can also visit her website, paulastonewilliams.com, which I will link in the show notes below. Paula is also a sought-after keynote speaker and can be hired to speak at conferences, organizations, and communities worldwide. And for those looking to grow their own communication skills, She provides speaker training designed to help you bring your authentic voice to stage. Before we wrap up today, I want to remind you that today is the final episode in season one of It's Both. I can't thank you all enough for making this an incredible season one, an incredible experience for me and hopefully for yourselves as well. After today's episode, I'm taking a very short two-week break to rest, reset, and get ready for everything that I've got planned for season two. And it is going to be good. I've already got some amazing, very well-known speakers, as well as friends, therapists, people with incredible stories that I cannot wait to share with you in season two. So stay tuned and make sure that you're subscribed so that the next season shows up in your feed the moment it drops on September 23rd. And if this episode resonated with you, it would mean the world to me if you could support the show and help it grow. First, please take a moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts. because your words help new listeners to find us. Second, share the episode with someone who might need it, because that's how this community grows, through real people, real stories, and honest conversations shared from one person to another. Finally, make sure you follow the show so you never miss an episode. Just tap the little plus sign or follow button on the main show page. These really are the most impactful things that you can do for the podcast. So thank you again for listening. And this week, take some time to recognize what in your life is full of bothness. And remember, it's okay to feel all the things, because so many times in life, it isn't either or, it's both.
