- Speaker #0
I am driven by negative motivation. Also positive. So that's odd for some people. So I'll give you an example. You know, some people say, oh,
- Speaker #1
you can't do that.
- Speaker #0
Dawn is like, because I'm one of my strength finders.
- Speaker #1
It's competition. And so I am competitive,
- Speaker #0
but not against you, Nicole. I am competitive, not against my peers. I'm competitive against the task, the project, the system that we're addressing. Right?
- Speaker #2
Welcome to It's Both, the podcast where we explore the messy, beautiful contradictions of being human. I'm your host, Nikki P, and each week I sit down with real people navigating life's complexities. Those moments when life isn't just one thing, it's so many. Today's episode is full of power, laughter, and some real conversations about what it means to navigate the world and the workplace as a Black woman. I'm sitting down with Dawn Stone. also known as the conflict chick. Dawn shares her story of building confidence in rooms where she didn't always feel seen and the deep wisdom that she's gathered from decades of navigating conflict, identity, and joy in corporate spaces. We talk about how mentorship saved her from burnout, how self-talk has become a lifeline, and why community is the real key to resilience. This conversation is for anyone who's ever had to shrink themselves to fit, questioned their worth in a room, or just needed a reminder that you are not alone. So let's jump in. Hi Dawn.
- Speaker #3
I am excited to have you here as we talk about what it is like to be a Black woman in her career and all of the bothness that goes along with that. And before we jump into that, I would love if you could tell everybody a little bit about who Dawn is.
- Speaker #1
My goodness, I am Dawn Stone. I am owner and operator of an organization called The Conflict Chick, where I'm a speaker, consultant, and coach working with leaders globally to build confident, competent, and connections while at work. So in doing that, I'm a native Nashvilleian as well. And so I've lived in five states and had a host of experiences, mother of three beautiful, newer, divergent children, divorced two amazing men who have gone on to build beautiful lives elsewhere. And I'm just a happy person. And I enjoy life,
- Speaker #0
Nicole. I mean,
- Speaker #1
it's just that simple. I enjoy living life every single day as it fits my life.
- Speaker #3
You do. Every time I interact with you, you have got just pure joy, the biggest smile on your face. And it's not some people do that. And you're like, this is fake. It is not fake with you. Like it is just radiating from the inside out.
- Speaker #1
I've been told they hear it on the phone. So I was like, I guess that's a good sign.
- Speaker #3
I think so. I think so for sure. It's not necessarily today's topic. But I'm curious, like, you know, I've never thought about it till the second you are so joyful and happy and it's interesting that you then have an organization called The Conflict
- Speaker #1
Chick. Absolutely. You know what it is? I really want to bring joy to other people because I lived in the darkness and in the shadows of other people and being the silent but strong friend, child, wife, mother for so long that I said,
- Speaker #0
you know what?
- Speaker #1
People need a little joy in their lives.
- Speaker #0
And really,
- Speaker #1
I doubled down on this. I've had this organization for 14 years and I used to work for other organizations while I was doing the work. But in 2019, I became a full-time entrepreneur, loved it. One of my clients actually pulled me in to work for them for a few years. And then I had a stroke, a stress-related stroke in 2021. So this joyful jewel was down on her back and literally almost lost her life. So when that happened, I really doubled down on the joy even more. In fact, my middle daughter's name is Joy.
- Speaker #0
That's how much I love it.
- Speaker #1
And I just think it's important for people to understand that. Conflict is not negative. It's actually neutral. It's more positive or negative based on your response or reaction to the stimuli. So like deadlines, I love a deadline. I will beat that thing up. I will stand outside my door.
- Speaker #0
I will have milestones in between. I have dance music.
- Speaker #1
But when I look at other people, some people hate deadlines and it causes their body to have stress and they will even have anxiety associated with it. So in my line of work, it's really important for me to help leaders, regardless of who they are, at what level, what age, to really understand that you can find joy when there is tension because the joy comes by working through it. And so I just, and just my thing,
- Speaker #0
I just was like, hey,
- Speaker #1
this is what we have to do. And think about how much joy we will have if you knew how to handle those tough things when it comes your way. Like that's, how much joy do we have in that?
- Speaker #3
Oh, so much. And it makes so much sense. I mean, as you talk about it, I'm like, well, yeah, that actually makes so much sense. And you, I mean, for those listening, like you came to our team for, I think it was probably over the course of a year and did multiple like trainings, facilitations, as well as some one-on-one coaching for anybody that was interested on our team. And I remember for me, even I was, I had been struggling in my past with just an employee that was hard for me to manage. It was, it was tricky. And I don't like those conversations. And so when it came time for those hard conversations, yeah, I will say you were so helpful and empowering. So I was like, I don't know what to do, Dawn. Help me. And you did.
- Speaker #1
Thank you. You know, I had to learn. So if they were listening closely, they would hear that I said I have two ex-husbands and three kids.
- Speaker #0
That's not easy to navigate. And I was sharing with a client yesterday, I said, you know,
- Speaker #1
you have to. be able to navigate conflict at all levels when you have children, ex-husbands,
- Speaker #0
and their new wives.
- Speaker #1
So we're navigating all of that. So if we didn't have tools to be effective as these children move from house to house and age, you know,
- Speaker #0
milestone by milestone,
- Speaker #1
we would be in trouble.
- Speaker #0
We literally have two in college and one in going to the second grade.
- Speaker #1
And so I was actually talking to his dad yesterday about how we navigate with him because he's
- Speaker #0
ADHD and he also is autistic. But he's brilliant like his dad. And his dad told me something yesterday in the call. And I was like, so glad to hear it.
- Speaker #1
He says, Don, he's me. He has my temperament. He's me. I was like, thank you.
- Speaker #0
Because I thought it all along, right?
- Speaker #3
You're like, finally, you said it. You came to it on your own.
- Speaker #1
I was like, Pippi is working for us all.
- Speaker #3
I love it. Thank you for sharing all that. And so I think as we jump in, talk to us about your both, the tension and the bothness. And talk to me about your experience there.
- Speaker #1
What is really about the bothness with me, I've actually been in corporate America since I was 18 years old. So like literally 18 and six months old. Okay. So that in itself in the early 90s was a. big deal. So I walked into a fortune 500 company and literally was given a briefcase and a outline for an internship. And so everyone knew I was walking as a,
- Speaker #0
what they call me,
- Speaker #1
a little black girl. I mean, even in meetings where I'm navigating conversations and getting people globally to work together because we positioned the organization for a merger. there was a person who was on the call that I was leading out of Canada. And he said, Dawn, the little girl is here. Now, we have all continents on this call. I am the youngest, and I was the only black. I do get that. But to say you have socks older than me, how annoying. He says,
- Speaker #0
I have socks older than you.
- Speaker #1
And I said, yeah, well, your socks aren't here. You know? I still was very, very sharp because I played the dozens for years as a kid. So I knew how to come back.
- Speaker #3
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
But, you know, over time, by about the fifth year I was with that company, he gave me a compliment. He said,
- Speaker #0
you know what?
- Speaker #1
You are really, really smart and you are sharp and you've done a great job. And I was like, thank you. And I knew that, you know, being this what they call the little black girl. I was under 21, by the way. realized this is 18, 19, 20. And then by the time I got this compliment, I was graduating from college. And he gave that to me in year four and a half.
- Speaker #0
One thing that I had to,
- Speaker #1
I knew real fast is that I was always a black girl who looked young to everyone. And so part of my, it's both is I was excited about the opportunity, but I also had to face not only sexism, racism. And then there's generationalism. And so where I was super young, people did not want me to have any success. Words were like, oh, you know, you're young. You're a kid. You've got time. Stop being so aggressive. Stop being so. So a lot of that came with me being a black woman, young black woman, who looked like a teenager,
- Speaker #0
even with a blue suit and some.
- Speaker #1
This day some have us dressed in blue suit, peanut butter stockings, and some three-inch pumps, but they would still call me little girl, right? And then just kind of like navigating this, knowing my level of intelligence and how the things that I would come up with, it would always get discounted first, but they would implement it. And I'm sitting in these rooms like, yeah, I know I see you, right? In fact, my boss, a gentleman who was Canada, we were doing this merger. I was the first person on the team in Nashville and I had to hire my team. So the two men I hired became my boss. So that was kind of weird. Right. I get that I'm 19 and a half. I do get that.
- Speaker #3
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
But it's like you see amazing things that I'm doing. And I was the only intern. I started off through an organization called En-ROADS, where they develop talented minority and youth for community and corporate leadership. So I was able to get a leg in at 18 because. through high school, my junior and senior year, I went through this program. So they were training us for corporate, right? It's a national program. You can look them up, I-N-R-O-A-D-S. They still do great work today. And I go back as an alum and train and help and do all the things, right? But it was really both because not only was I young, black and female, I was the first in my family to have a corporate job. So I remember my dad was so proud. Okay, it brings tears to my eyes, but He worked in factories his whole life. And so when I got this internship, he brought me a leather, several hundred dollar briefcase.
- Speaker #0
And
- Speaker #1
I took an empty briefcase in there every day. I love that. He is awesome. I love my daddy. I love him. That's so sweet. Because he gave me, they gave me my identity. Whereas the company tried to. negate that every day. Right. So I worked for this organization for six years, but I had one mentor and my mentor was our boss's boss. And she was a female, Bonnie Woodward. And I still communicate with her today. And I tell her, thank you, because she would not let them, you know, and that's what I needed at that age. So we would say it's both. Yes, I can be great and bright. Yes, I can carry my little briefcase in with my blue suits on.
- Speaker #0
But if I'm still being treated a certain way,
- Speaker #1
but knowing that y'all are implementing my things, that causes harm. But Bonnie was my, she was my mentor, my champion, and my advocate. So those are three seats that she sat in that most people don't do. So she, a lot of times, is the reason why, as an early leader or an emerging leader, or what they call high-performing leader, at such an early age and the only buck everywhere in my space, it was her who helped give me voice. And so like the things that she did for me, I do now for leaders. So she was a great model for me because always having to prove myself was exhausting.
- Speaker #3
Oh yeah.
- Speaker #1
And guess what? It didn't stop, Nicole. Everywhere I went, I had to do the exact same thing. Every time I had a baby, I had to come back and justify why I was coming back to work.
- Speaker #0
I mean,
- Speaker #1
it was wild. That was at Home Depot because we had four kids.
- Speaker #0
I married into a military, and we had two bonus kids, and then I had my kids. When I had my second daughter, who was now 19, I remember coming back to work, and they were like,
- Speaker #1
you came back? Well, we thought you wanted to stay at home and be a stay-at-home mom.
- Speaker #0
Hey, it's both. I'm a mother and worker.
- Speaker #1
What are we talking about? I love my career. And so, you know, having to do that all the time and carrying the burdens of so many people,
- Speaker #0
carrying my family,
- Speaker #1
my dad in my briefcase, you know, because I'm in rooms that he would never,
- Speaker #0
and he's still, he'll be 70 at the end of this month.
- Speaker #1
He's never been in a corporate room, ever. But he lives through my stories. He lives in my briefcase. He's the man I take into a room.
- Speaker #0
with his six, four, 300-pound self. I love him.
- Speaker #1
My son is a replica of him. My son looks like his granddad.
- Speaker #0
He said, yeah, he looks just like his papa.
- Speaker #1
So you think about all the things that I had to do and how it was both. I had to be both daughter and wife. I had to be both worker and friend. I had to be both humble but also very assertive. And so balancing that. I got called B-word.
- Speaker #0
That's because I'd asked for a report. I said,
- Speaker #1
Nicole, you got your report? You know I love deadlines,
- Speaker #0
right? Yeah, yeah. Hey, the people pleasing Dawn is like,
- Speaker #1
give me the word. Hey, if you can't do it,
- Speaker #0
I'll do it for you.
- Speaker #1
Then they call me goody two-shoes. hmm that I was a pit bull on a towel these are all names that I had um when it was both in my first job difficult aggressive so these are things just performing my job all I did was what I had to do was on my job description and
- Speaker #3
being that perfectionist I did that to a t and then some so we really think about it being both it really is both and how did you I mean gosh because like how do you navigate that? I just... I can't ever see you in a space and think of you as aggressive. I mean, that's just never. Do you know what I mean? And so to be called or even to be called a bitch, you know, I guess my question is, how do you navigate that? And what keeps you working hard and staying there and navigating through that when it's so, you know, oppositional to who you are?
- Speaker #0
Well, that kind of gets into who I am and why my first book was called Positive Putting 30 Days to a More Positive View. I am driven by negative motivation. So also positive. So that's odd for some people. So I'll give you an example. You know, some people say, oh, you can't do that. Dawn is like, because I'm one of my strength finders,
- Speaker #1
it's competition. And so I am competitive,
- Speaker #0
but not against you, Nicole. I am competitive, not against my peers. I'm competitive against the task, the project, the system that we're addressing, right?
- Speaker #1
And so being called all those names,
- Speaker #0
I was like, you know what? I'll tell you who gave it to me. My grandmother. When I was a little girl, she said, and that's why I say my support system was the best. If I didn't have the support system, the answer in short, if I didn't have the support system, I would not be the conflict chick today. I would, I didn't even know that I'd be here because I mean, it is so bad. And I look at all the things that we have right now where people and young people committing suicide, unended person. in and out of hospitals. I mean, active shooters. Like we just had an active shooting incident over in Austria. So for them in Europe,
- Speaker #1
they're like,
- Speaker #0
oh my goodness. They, you know, it's a global thing. People are not well. So part of navigating this and being able to persist is that support system. So when I say it is both, I may be the only person in corporate. They may not know anything, but my family was always there, right? My mentors were always there. They're talking. about me and for me in rooms that I'm not in. And so my family also did that. And so then when you look at all the stuff that you're up against, my personality is one that I'm just to go get it. In fact, when I had that stroke, I was like, Dawn, you almost died. But for me to graduate from PT, because I couldn't walk. I had to learn how to talk again. I had to, my kids were addressing me. So we're talking, you know, although that 30 minutes turned into 64 days of being helpless. OK. And so when you think about that, it's a mindset. So the first step in any of this, which is why I am the conflict chick, we start with the mind. How do you feel about yourself? So as a little girl, my grandmother gave me those those tips very early because even my mother suffered from depression that I didn't find out about until I was an adult. So my grandmother was that one who was like, Dawn,
- Speaker #1
you are,
- Speaker #0
what's the shirt say? I am, I know I'm somebody because God don't make no junk. That was a little T. It was a baby T in the 70s that our boy had a little black girl who was on a little caricature. She was like this. She had these plaits in her hair. She looked like me. She was my color brown. And so I remember that. So even when people were talking about me and I learned how to play the dozens. If I was young and I couldn't come back, I'd say, I know I'm somebody because God don't make no junk. And that stayed with me. So when I got to corporate and people were calling me the B word and they're saying she's a pit bull on the towel and we hate her and she's too aggressive. I know I'm somebody because God don't make no junk. This is my purpose. This is my track. And I am here because I'm a living example for someone else. And that's just how, that's why it's both for me. Like sometimes I'm like, why are we even here? Like I said, why are we even here? There's a t-shirt that I probably will make. And I've had this t-shirt for 10 years. Why am I not your CEO?
- Speaker #3
Like that,
- Speaker #0
yeah. And that it's a conversation starter. And so that in my business, that's what we do. We solve conflict one conversation at a time. We look at why someone has to prove themselves by asking those questions. We look at why you... stand by when other people are being harmed or like in your situation, why do you have such a difficult time with this one employee? this one leader. And what it does is it ends up coming back to you. It's something, it's a mirror for you. And so that book, and I'll tell you a book that's amazing for your listeners. The book that is amazing is called, I wish I would have read literally 30 years ago. Like I needed this at 16. I did. It is called The Four Agreements. But in this book, it talks about the one thing that we must always remember. And we have to remember that we are the mirror. We are looking at our own reflection. So when you see someone as a person and you know and acknowledge them as a person, would you do what you did to them, to yourself? And in essence, we are. So it's a classic. It's awesome because what it does is you have to understand that we as humans have rights and responsibilities. And the first one is always what? keep your word. First of all, it's to keep your word and be honest with yourself. And if we are, then we know, right? Because in my practice, I have a somatic practice that basically has us. And this is what I would do now, Nicole, if we were in the situation with the same leader, I would ask you, what's happening in your body? What is your body telling you? Where are you seeing and feeling the tension? Because that's where we will go first. Because sometimes it may be someone's voice. And I've had this. professors in college, if I didn't like their voice within the first two minutes of the class, I knew I could not sit there for 13 weeks.
- Speaker #1
I couldn't do it because I'd be picking that apart and I'd miss the lesson.
- Speaker #0
That's the ADHD in me. I'd be like, wow, okay, so was he really trying to say this? Well, I'll go and fact check it in the book. It's crazy stuff. It is both, right?
- Speaker #3
Yeah, yeah. Well, you were talking about just having to prove yourself in this constant fight, right? Was there something that you felt stood out the most? Like, was it the most proving because you were a woman or was it the most proving because you were a black woman or because you were young or a mix of it? Or I'm curious how that progressed through the years that went on as you got further in your career, what stayed the same and what changed throughout that?
- Speaker #0
Sure. It's a mix. It was the fact that I was a smart black woman with, and I'm neurodivergent. So my ADHD allows me to see a problem, break it down, put a PowerPoint together and teach you and train you. And so for a lot of people that I have worked with in my career, that was problematic because they couldn't do it. And so, you know, years of therapy have helped me and I wish I would have had therapy as a kid. It would have been great, but. what I realized is the way my brain works is atypical. So because it is, and people have their own securities and insecurities, it always posed a problem. So I'll give you a really good example, even for today. I have to stay in my consultancy full time because when I interview and people realize that I'm older than them, but like, you know, with 34 years of... Solid experiences in companies like Dale and Nabisco, Home Depot. Been an entrepreneur since 19. A lot of folks are like, and someone told me this, why don't y'all just retire? I said, I'm sorry, who's retiring at 50? Who's retiring at 50? That is a, that's a misnomer. We're living to 80. So, and look, my mother was still working at the time too. I'm like, what are we talking about here? She was 70 at that time. And I was like. no, we can't do this.
- Speaker #1
So being a black,
- Speaker #0
an intelligent black woman was always a problem. And so, so I had men who would be like, you know what? You're great, but I'm the boss. Quotes.
- Speaker #1
Wow.
- Speaker #0
You're great. I'd love to have you here, but I'm not leaving. These are in interviews. And so when I was younger, they would always say what? I got socks older than you. You're young. Wait your turn. And as a Gen Xer, that's how the boomers and the veteran generations groomed us. You got these all of them, so that's it in between. They groomed us that way. So that's why when you hear people say, well, Gen Xers, what did you do? We produced. We're still producing. And like all the platforms we're on, I bet when I look this one up, it was created by a Gen Xer. Because we were latchkey kids who just said, leave us alone. and our parents taught us parents and grandparents taught us how to work so our work ethic was impeccable for the majority of us right yeah and then what you saw was as i got older in in my career and became a wife, then they gave me wife duties and not professional duties. And I was like, because I had a baby, my brain changed. What are we talking about here? So to still be able to have that level of execution and creation, and now in this 50 plus old body, Nicole, I cannot even get to the interview table because a lot of times
- Speaker #1
I am more experienced and
- Speaker #0
educated than the people interviewing me. So they say, quote again, we want someone young and innovative in this space. We're looking to have someone grow in this position,
- Speaker #1
right?
- Speaker #0
And so that's code for you too old lady. Yeah,
- Speaker #3
yeah, yeah.
- Speaker #0
So it is both.
- Speaker #3
And it's like, how frustrating, because when you're young, you're told you're too young and you're too inexperienced and you can't. We can't like take you too seriously. You got to work for it. And there's almost like a five-year window where it's the quote sweet spot for companies and organizations. And if you're below that, no, sorry. If you're above that, you're too old. You're too experienced. I mean, it's just not sustainable and it's not equitable. I mean, it doesn't make any sense.
- Speaker #1
28 to 33, Nicole. 28 to 33 is that sweet zone. So if any of your listeners are in that zone right now, define where you want to go in that moment. And you'll get there.
- Speaker #0
Set your mark,
- Speaker #1
set your target and go after it. But that's it. You're exactly right.
- Speaker #3
Yeah. Did it ever catch up with you? You know, what I mean is having people constantly say these things to you that aren't true and that are negative and that are like seeding self-doubt. Did it ever catch on where you were like, well, maybe I'm not intelligent or experienced enough, or maybe I'm not X, Y, Z enough? Or did that ever latch on and like change your beliefs at all?
- Speaker #1
Well, I will say for the speaking part of my business, at 25, I knew at 25 that I wanted to do what I'm doing now. So I'll have to say yes. But what did I believe? I believe the narratives, the false narratives that my family told me. You got to work. You got to put in the work. They'll see your good work and promote you, Dawn. I've been told that since I was five.
- Speaker #3
Yeah, me too. Right.
- Speaker #1
We're both the same parents. My goodness. And so... That was how the self-doubt came in and what some people will deem as the imposter syndrome.
- Speaker #0
But really,
- Speaker #1
the imposter syndrome is your intelligence. It's your abilities. And so sometimes you see that gift and then you wonder, should I even have it? Does that not make sense? It's like, oh, I'm really good at this, but I need more time. Right. I'm really good at that, but I need more time. When again, it's both. You are intelligent. and you still have some fear associated with it. So the things that I have to do,
- Speaker #0
I do a lot of positive self-talk.
- Speaker #1
I'm going to be real honest.
- Speaker #0
I have always talked to myself in mirrors.
- Speaker #1
I have always talked to myself in person.
- Speaker #0
I have always talked to myself walking down,
- Speaker #1
taking tests, doing all of that. And that has helped. There's a researcher, Dr. Eric Byrne,
- Speaker #0
that talks about this. He's a social psychologist,
- Speaker #1
and he talks about the tapes that play in your head. So remember, tapes are created by the people who you're with and around. And those tapes play those same narratives all the time. You're a great person. You're a bad kid. You move too much. Whatever those tapes are. So until you get new tapes into your tape deck, because some people don't know this, until you get new songs on your playlist, there we go, until you get new songs on the playlist, you will consistently play that same. playlist, and maybe not even shuffle it.
- Speaker #0
If you're like me and dinner time creates so much anxiety and stress and you have very little time, especially if you have kids, from the time you get home until bedtime, let me suggest Hungry Root. Hungry Root has been a game changer for our family. Every week I go in and I pick out our meals for the following week. I get to select four servings, which is huge. A lot of delivery services don't allow for multiple servings like that, but it's enough to feed our family. They are really affordable, but significantly cheaper than what you would get with some of the other subscriptions out there that tend to be very pricey and fancier, I would say, than Hungry Root. But it also offers a lot of healthy options. And so you can pick different dietary restrictions. Like I usually always select anti-inflammatory for the family, which is like a lot of fish, a lot of veggies, a lot of chicken, but you can also select vegan, vegetarian, high protein. gluten-free, all these different variations that you can choose from. That's affordable, it's healthy, and almost every single meal is less than 30 minutes to make. And oftentimes, if it's more than 30 minutes, it's just the bake time that takes a little bit longer. The prep time on almost all of these meals is very minimal that even somebody like me, who has self-proclaimed that I do not like to cook because it creates anxiety and stress in me, I can even make these meals. It's been easy on my husband, who's the one that cooks because I prepare ahead of time, like what the recipes are going to be. I pick them on hungry route and I choose things that are easy for his preference that I know him and the kids and myself are going to like. And it's made our dinnertime routine so much easier in a way that none of the other subscriptions have. And it's yet still affordable as if we were going to the grocery store and getting our groceries. So if you want to try it out, I highly recommend it regardless of if it's Just you, just you and a partner or you and kids. It works for any size family, any size household. And if you're interested, you can click the link below and get $50 off your first box. And it's true because even as a licensed therapist myself, I know all of the research and the benefits. And yet, it is still so hard for me to sit down. I'm like, I know self-talk and affirmations make a difference. And yet, when I sit to do it, I'm like, this is so stupid. I know it's not. But there is that internal fight to say, why are you going to tell yourself something if you don't quite believe it yet? And I've had to work through that myself because I've also seen the pushback in people around my age kind of pushing back to some of that. I feel like my age group is like, OK, I don't know about that. But it's taken me a while because when I started doing that, it makes a massive difference.
- Speaker #1
Yes, it does. It's the whole reason why I'm here. To be laid out three times. to have made six figures and lost them before 50, three times, to have three kids. And I didn't even start that journey until 28. And my last child was at 44. What do we talk about as you're here in the background? It's like, where are we going with this? Why am I here? What is this for? And so it's like having those new tapes and those new playlists that we create. And, you know, neuroscientists tell you all the time, neural plasticity is the only way we create new memories, new skills, new thought patterns, you know? And so that's what we have to do. We have to lean into what you know and make it a part of your daily practice.
- Speaker #0
Well, why do you think people, me and others, I mean, because I would imagine you run into this a lot in your work when you're like, we need to get that self-tape going or that playlist different. We need to say the affirmations. And people are like, I don't want to do that. Like, that sounds silly. I'm not going to talk to myself in the mirror. I'm not going to do that.
- Speaker #1
What do you think the resistance is? Okay, so I'm actually writing a book about it that comes out next month that deals with certain types of people. The majority of the people will resist because deep down they have a value problem, a self-valuation problem. There's a deficit there. And then secondly, a lot of people love being average. being average and mediocre is easy so to be exceptional and to be trash takes work so we yeah we talk about that um really constantly about how you have to want to do something and that's why why goal setting and rituals are so important so whether you're doing some grounding work some breath work some prayers, some praise, some exercise, whatever it is for you. See, a lot of people are so afraid of coming out of that conditioning, taking off that old garment and putting on something new because it takes action. And it takes consistent action. And with that consistent action, you actually get clarity. So let's be honest. Deep down, people really don't want to do better, be better. They don't want to do better or be better.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. It's hard.
- Speaker #1
It is. That's why.
- Speaker #0
And it's vulnerable. You have to be willing to say, if I'm trying to be great and I might fail. And in fact, like most people, you're going to fail. We're all going to fail. But I know. I would imagine that as people try to break out of that, when you do try, you're vulnerable and you have to be willing to say, hey, I wasn't good at that. And that is really hard for a lot of people to do.
- Speaker #1
That's why the four agreements is very important because that first agreement is to be honest with yourself and to keep your word. So that starts with keeping your word with yourself. For example, you say, I'm going to exercise three to four times a week. I'm going to do a podcast twice a week. It only takes one time for you to put yourself. On the other side of that. And so what a lot of people do is say, oh, well, I knew I couldn't do it. So that goes back into that self-work, that self-valuation. So it's like, how much value do you put on a car? Same thing. Once we drive it off the floor, showroom floor, it is devaluated instantly by at least $8,000 as you drive it off. Brand new. Now it's not so new. Think about it. New restaurants, we do that too. Oh, it's a great new place. We've got all these things, you know. And you just have to be consistent and persistent about the things that you want and desire. And just a lot of people really aren't, Nicole. And we're in a society that doesn't celebrate gifts. And we celebrate. We mock people who are smarter and those who are not.
- Speaker #0
And those who are willing to go out and. try something totally new and do something weird and crazy and exciting and new. I mean, it's like you get a lot of judgment for that.
- Speaker #1
Yes. And judgment is free. Everybody can do it or not.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And do you, do you feel like there was ever a change or a turning point for you and your career where people, you felt a shift, right? Where there was less of the questioning, less of the proving of yourself. Did you ever feel like that stopped or you feel like It is as much there today as it was however many years ago. Yeah,
- Speaker #1
it's still there. I'm going three decades strong. I'm in my 34th year. And the reason why it's judgment is exactly what you said, Nicole. So people are easy to judge. And so we used to call that perceptions, right? People's perceptions do become their reality until it doesn't. And so the challenge I always give to leaders is instead of judging a person or a thing or an idea. Go and investigate it. Be curious. So we just change the language instead of, you know, I wouldn't want that job. I wouldn't want that podcast. Be curious about it. What is it about? What's making you think that? What's making you feel that way? When you listen, what do you hear? So it's like really incorporating the senses into a lot of this work because it does take real, real work, but it also takes a real lens. So I would lie if I say it didn't still occur. It does. Even when my children, like when people see me with my adult kids, they put me in a box. They're like, oh, yeah. She says, she says, yeah. Okay. You know, like a grandma. Oh, she looks good with her kids. When I'm with my young son and then they realize I'm not their age, then I'm an instant outsider. It's really weird. And I see that even in my kids' classroom. Because, you know, I'm a, uh-huh, I'm a second, I'm now a rising second grade mom. with a room full of millennials and millennials. And so the only time they really realized that I'm an Xer is when I bring my other daughter. Because they look at them like, well, is she a grandma? I mean, they create a whole narrative. And it's funny to see their face as they try to figure out if my son is my grandson. And I say, no, I carry all the stretch marks, the extra. investment is still here. The muffin top. Oh, it's from my son. The muffin top muffined. It's plump now that I've had him at 44. So then it becomes a conversation piece. And that's what I like to do in the call is help people get educated. But no, it did not change. It did not change. I'm still being judged today. Probably right now.
- Speaker #0
Is it, do you feel like, cause it feels like you have a much more graceful reception of judgment. If people when people have done that to me, it is really hard for me. And it has happened being a woman and being a woman who, like I graduated high school a year early. So I definitely can understand the piece of never being taken too seriously. And even a funny enough, this has nothing to do with how I view myself, but I used to be very like, I would dress really nice, wear lots of makeup, do my hair, have jewelry and the attention and reactions that I would get for being young and being what people perceived as attractive. I can't tell you, I stopped like wearing as much makeup. I stopped wearing jewelry. I stopped wearing heels. I stopped. I was like, I can't, I'm never taken seriously. And so there's those pieces that I definitely understand, but it was still super hurtful. It was hard to not internalize that. So hearing your story, I'm like, how did you keep yourself from internalizing it? And how did you not get hurt and offended at the constant derogatory, sexist, racist comments that came to you throughout your career and even now?
- Speaker #1
So how I navigated that is I literally have this ritual. So it is the positive self-talk every day, all day, every day, every day, all day, every day. Right. because even culturally for me as a black woman in the South, there's a certain demographic and a certain look by demographic or perceived look. So even as a small child, I'm dark complected. So I'm a chocolate brown and I'm slim. I'm athletically built. So if you've ever watched a, you know, a Sha'Carri Richardson and all them on the TV and track, I have a track body. So I've always been a small. child, a smaller framed person. So there was always judgment, even in my own race, because I didn't have all the extra hips and butt. My breasts did grow, though. So whoever was talking about me, they used to call me Ripple Nipple as a child, because they said it could skip rocks off my chest. My chest was so flat. So that flat turned into a double D. Girl, I'm good. Without surgery. Without surgery. So... Like literally over time, I just have to release it. And so like as an adult, I built this into my system. One of the systems that I teach my leaders, it's hold on to whatever harm or pain is there, process it, and then decide what day and time or hour you will release it. So I don't hold anything past 72 hours. And that has kept me healthier. And I probably would have had that stress COVID related stroke earlier if I had. Because even though I do it well, just think, I still had a stress-related stroke in 2021. I ran marathons. I had a son at 44. I eat vegan and vegetarian most days. And so I'm actually physically and on the inside healthier than the majority of my family.
- Speaker #0
I would imagine the majority of people in general.
- Speaker #1
Right. Yeah. But guess what kills, Nicole? It's that internalized stress. So what I found is that I got PTSD and I had ADHD. So with ADHD, all year, all day, whole life, then the PTSD came with work and relationships as an adult. So when they do an ACEs course, we always think about, oh, what were these adverse childhood experiences that you had? My childhood was great. You heard the stories. I had the big mama. I had my mama, my daddy. I had my sister, my cousins. We traveled every year. It was never hungry, always had the best, was the first family that had a VCR, first family that had a moonroof in the car. You know, I was that black kid. It was like an emerging, young, what in that time was a Buffy-like family. We didn't have as much as some of the upper class, but we were middle class when it mattered. Middle class in the 80s was great. VCRs, beta, headphones, all that stuff. But as an adult, that started to change. And so what I realized is I had to release things because I'm a people pleaser, Nicole. That's what this book is about. It's unburdened. Now being unburdened looks different because I had to navigate through it with therapy and by doubling down on these practices. And so I release it. And I do conflict. So think about this. I'm in conflict every single day. So I also have to watch my cortisol levels. That's why I stay in shape. I work out. I will box. I will run. I will do weight training. That stuff gets the balance of the hormones together. Once you turn 45, you'll see your first change in your hormones. Once you hit 50, you'll see the second, third, fourth. So it's almost every year. And so in order to keep that balance, you got to be healthy both inside and out. And you're right. Eating and doing the right things helps. And I know that is by far the reason why I came back from that stroke so quickly. I still have friends right now that can't speak, still have brain fog and speech challenges. Yeah, totally blessed.
- Speaker #0
And when you talk about your rituals and releasing, what does that look like in practice, you know, or your or your self-talk? Just if you could briefly explain, I think in theory, everybody knows what that means. But what on a day to day, you're releasing some stuff that was said to you, you're releasing stress, tension, and you're doing some self-talk. How does that play out for you?
- Speaker #1
So I'll tell you in the in the age of I'm going to give you the day and I'll take you back. So in this day and age, YouTube is your friend. They're affirmation videos. And literally, when I was going through my divorce, every single day when I get up, I have a ritual. I have a map system, right? So that's a meditation. The A is affirmation. The P is prayer and practice. And so with my practice, I visualize what I want to see and what I'm going to do. So that was very helpful because for me, as a people-pleasing perfectionist who sometimes procrastinates, divorce for me was a death because I am an idealist. I love love. I love to be in love. I love it, love it, love it. And so when that was falling apart, I had to get really, really, really deep on it. So I started at the, what I did, what I do now have been doing since 1998 is having something every single day following this map system. Before I put my feet on the ground, I'm praying, I'm doing all of that. I'm meditating, I'm praying. giving my affirmations. Affirmations are things that you declare to be true. So if you're not good at developing a list, go listen to a YouTube video and just put in the word affirmations, find someone's voice that resonates with you, someone's message. If you are a queer, black man in the Midwest, there is an affirmation list out there for you. If you are a homemaker, white female on the West Coast. They got one for you there. You may go and do women, West women, nationalist women affirmations. Listen to it. And I say to do that at least five to 15 minutes a day. Sometimes I do it for 30. That's practice. And what that does is that changes the way I start thinking. Because sometimes if you have a hurt, you go to sleep with a hurt, you're going to wake up with that same hurt. So as soon as your alarm goes off, your mind goes right back to what happened 12 hours ago. And so the only way to trip that is just like what we talked about. You've got to put new memories in to push those out. So that working memory is working. It's working all day and all night. So the old school way, for me, practice looks like this. I'm in the shower. My shower is my purge session. It's my spiritual sanctuary. It has been my sanctuary since I was a kid and even knew about spirituality, connectedness. So in the shower, I talk. to the shower. I do it today. My kids tell me, are you talking to me? Nope. Talking to myself. Keep going. So you say all the things. I practice conversations, Nicole.
- Speaker #0
With other people that you're going to have? Yes. Conversations you're going to have with other people? Okay. Yes.
- Speaker #1
Like that staff member that you needed to talk to, I would be in the shower and I would practice it. Here's the scenario. I got to tell them about their performance and the way that they didn't follow through on something. And I would talk through those different scenarios in real time. I do my prayers a lot in the shower. When I'm sad and I'm having a grieve or purge, I do it in the shower because that water literally cleanses and washes and goes in the drain. So by the time I step out, I'm better. I'm good. I listen to music. I exercise. I walk. So those are rituals that you can do that are free 99 that take no time. Little to no time. Yeah. Car rides. Car ride in the morning.
- Speaker #0
I mean, and that's so great because even somebody like me with three little kids, they're not even older where they can, I can say, stay in your room for 15 minutes. I need to do my meditation. That does not exist right now for me. And so that's been one of the most difficult as I'm hearing you talk. I'm like, yeah, where do you plug in the ritual of whatever? And it is those micro, you know, Brene Brown talked about micro dosing hope. And I'm thinking it's, it's very similar. It's like, how can I micro dose? These moments of stillness, of affirmation, anything like you're saying to just stop the brain from doing what the brain is going to do unless you stop, unless you create those new patterns. Yeah, that's so powerful.
- Speaker #1
I'll tell you how I did it because I had the babies. So during the pandemic, my husband at the time was working nights. I had a preschooler, middle schooler and a high schooler. the middle school and high school were home uh we had to do home teaching homeschooling and the preschooler was also at home homeschooling so i had Three areas in our house, the girls had their room, and then the living room was my son's playground. And my office was the kitchen. And then my husband was asleep in our bedroom. Okay. So just now. So what I did, or no, here's what I did. I set my clock to get up at 1 or 1.30.
- Speaker #0
In the morning?
- Speaker #1
Uh-huh. Or 3 to 3.30. 3 a.m. to 3 or 3.30. And I also wrote a book during that time, too. Because that's when the house was completely still. My husband was at work. Kids were in the bed. So even the teenager finally goes down about 12, 12.30. That's why it was easy for me to find those moments. And what it allows you to do is to just have that time. So I would go into my closet. I would go into my bathroom, take a shower at 1.30 in the morning. Best thing you could ever do and then get in that bed. Oh, it's beautiful. So just carving out the times when you know their blocks of time are. sleeping. So yeah, I did that. And so getting up, and so like now, because they're older, he's a rising eight-year-old, now it's, I get up an hour before they do. So that's when I do it. So if he gets up at six, I'm at five. So at five, I can work out, I can do my meditation and be ready. And then of course, the teenager, she sleeps about 12.30. She's going back to college soon. It's going to be great.
- Speaker #0
it's gonna be great yeah yeah I love that and you know I'm thinking too is there anything you would say to anybody you know maybe specifically to women to black women to young black women who are in their career in the workspace right now listening and they're like
- Speaker #1
I am experiencing some of these things what would you say to them so this is going to be for all women because what I have found in my practice and I have a global practice now that the thing, the pains, the angst that we are experiencing is not a monolith, but it does impact each and every one of us who identify as women. So that includes my queer and my trans community as well. And so the things that I will say is, number one, you are not alone. You have a community and you can change your situation. And so then it becomes how, let's use that and say how. for one connect connect you can always come over in my community it's the conflict chick at the conflict chick since nobody likes conflict like i like conflict hey the seo be popping so you can find me on all social media handles i'm also even on sub stack youtube i'm now on patreon i mean like connect with us because we are a group of eclectic neurodivergent quirky outsiders bad girls, smart, geeky nerds, scared and powerful women. And so if that's the community that you want to be a part of, come get it. And then also do a search because your community is out there. If you need that local tap in, find groups. And I'll tell you something some people don't look into. If you're looking for peace and like a quiet space and want to incorporate. things outside of yourself, join a hiking club. I did that a few years, several years back. And so you're meeting people while you're working your body, you're out in nature. And the thing is, you can engage if you want to, or you can just engage with nature. So it allows you to have that pause that you need to just kind of show up for yourself. And then the last piece of advice is going to be to get a mentor and or coach. They are different and you can have multiples. I have multiple mentors for different parts of my life and my journey right now. So I have mentors that are for spiritual. I also have coaches that are spiritual. I have mental health providers. I always have one of those. And then I also have some business coaches that help me. So that's what you want to do and that's how you should engage. your connection. Just know that you're not alone because what happens to us when we are in this space of isolation and solitude, we tend to go inward. And what I'm asking you to do is to reach out and not be afraid.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Well, and I'm guessing like the difference when you're saying mentor versus coach, mentor would be more of... you might not pay someone. It's more of a relationship where they're kind of helping you, mentoring you along versus coach is maybe more traditionally somebody you would pay for a service that is coaching you on X, Y, Z thing. Is that how you would describe it?
- Speaker #1
And then for those who are really going to put too many words on it, because you know how it can be, skill and feel. A coach handles your skill, and the mentor helps you with how you're feeling. Okay? So skill versus feel. Yeah. And, yeah, you pay coaches. And make an investment. Here it is. It's an investment. And I want people, because I have a coaching practice, but I only coach certain people. So I coach. high performing women, those who are perfectionist, people pleasing, and just those who want to be seen and sometimes procrastinate, you know, they're doing all the things, right? I coach people that are in burnout. So basically that's what I do. It's like, Hey, you burned out. Come on, let's come over here and let's reset and reassess. Right. And then there are other people who coach in different things. Like if you want to be as an actor, we'll coach you on that. If you are wanting to be more financially responsible. that's a financial or a legacy coach but if you're looking for someone to help you with the way you feel and the way you're processing walking through life they do not have to be in your same vein or your same field most of my best mentors
- Speaker #0
were people that had nothing to do with what I do in my nine-to-five that's a great point because I think we do limit ourselves and we look for somebody who's you know gone through similar experiences in in a similar stage of life you know, you want to get all these similarities correct so that you feel some alignment. But really, yeah, I mean, you make such a great point. Like the most, some of the most impactful people I've ever had in my life, vastly different from me. And I needed that. I wanted that. It made the difference. So I think that's great.
- Speaker #1
Because they can see you without the bias, Nicole.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
That's the thing. They just see your heart. So that's what's new. It's both, right?
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
You can work and you can be. So the thing is, you got to have a balance in them. You have to have a balance in both.
- Speaker #0
You can work,
- Speaker #1
but if you work yourself to exhaustion, you're no good. You can't be. You won't be. You may not be here.
- Speaker #0
Well, thank you for just sharing your experience, being vulnerable, being honest. I think it is going to be so important for others to hear. So impactful. So thank you. And one last thing, as we wrap up, I ask everybody just. It's a little segment called Ridiculous or Relatable. So if you could share something that you do that is completely ridiculous, but maybe kind of relatable to others.
- Speaker #1
So Ridiculous and Relatable. A good form of therapy for me is called karaoke. I would karaoke because what it does, it builds your esteem. The people don't know you have the time they drunk. So the fact that you're up there, they're screaming for you. So when you feel that there are no people. Rooting for you and you just need to get out of a rut, find a karaoke spot and allow yourself to be seen and heard. That's it.
- Speaker #0
That's a good one. What's your go-to karaoke song?
- Speaker #1
Oh girl, I get called Tina Turner all the time. I will pull out a Tina classic.
- Speaker #0
Really?
- Speaker #1
Yes. What's Love Got To Do With It? Of course. I'm divorced twice. Oh my gosh. It's serious. It's serious.
- Speaker #0
I'm going to need to see a video of this because I have to. This is amazing. I can only imagine you singing that song and it would be so good.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, I do it when I go on vacation. So if I'm at a resort, by the time they see me day two or three, they're calling me Tina. There's Tina Turner right there. That's so fun. And then they love the fact, Nicole, that she was born in Tennessee, you know, Nutbush, city limits. Yeah, she was what we call down the road. So, yeah, I love it. And I have a big fro, which people can't see, but it's kind of short right now. I have a huge fro and it's usually picked out and I'll have on some sandals and do Proud Mary. So it's Proud Mary and What's Love Got to Do With It are two classics.
- Speaker #0
Those are great. I love it. You know, it's funny. I have a list of songs I would do for karaoke, but I've never actually done public karaoke.
- Speaker #1
Okay. Okay. So that's your go-to. We got to do it. So when I see you,
- Speaker #0
we're going to do karaoke.
- Speaker #1
That's the A.
- Speaker #0
We're going to make.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, I think I would have to be I'd have to have a drink or two. And I'd have to be somewhere where I did not know anybody but one or two people, I think is what I would need to know.
- Speaker #0
That's the thing. That's the goal. Because you only know the people you go with.
- Speaker #1
Uh huh.
- Speaker #0
And that's perfect. Yeah. I mean, it's great. You should try it. And you you live in a place that has these all the time.
- Speaker #1
I know. That makes it intimidating. I'm like, I'm not going to go out in Nashville and do karaoke. Like people that do karaoke in Nashville, they're stars. And you're like, you sound like Tina Turner. I don't want to hear that. I'm not going to sound like anybody.
- Speaker #0
But you're going to sound like you. And that's all that matters. So that's how we find voice, right? Yeah. So if you think about it, that is a good way for you to go ahead and put yourself out there and be unapologetically Nicole.
- Speaker #1
There you go. For any other people pleasers listening, this is home because that's me. I'm like, oh, yes. But thank you so much. This is so great. And I just love talking to you.
- Speaker #0
Oh, I enjoy talking to you as well. And so let me know if I can do anything for you or if you're out there listening. If you need help getting activated, I'm definitely that person for you. And we can do a little karaoke on Zoom if you want to. And that goes out to you as well, Nicole. And we can post it. Yes,
- Speaker #1
okay. Well, let's not go that far.
- Speaker #0
Well, I enjoyed it. Have an amazing day.
- Speaker #1
You too. Thanks, Dawn.
- Speaker #2
If you've been the strong one holding it all together, but silently burning out, Dawn sees you. Dawn Belfier Stone is also known as the Conflict Chick. She is a culture transformation alchemist, executive coach, and Rule 31 certified mediator with over 30 years helping leaders shift from burnout to balance. Dawn's new book, Unburned, is more than a read. It's a roadmap and a revolution. Join her community of high achieving women learning to lead with heart, rest, and unapologetic self-worth. To learn more and start your journey, you can go to theconflictchick.com and you can also follow her on Instagram at theconflictchick. If this conversation with Dawn resonated with you and maybe reminded you of a moment you had to advocate for yourself or gave you the courage to show up more fully, I would love for you to share it. Here are a couple of ways you can support the show. Send the episode to a friend who needs it. Leave a quick rating and review of the show. It really, really helps others to find us. And make sure you're following It's Both wherever you listen to your podcast so that you don't miss an episode. Until next time, keep holding space for your own both. And remember, it's okay to feel all the things because so many times in life, it isn't either or. It's both.
