- Speaker #0
Just coming here, it was just a little bit of worriness, but also excited because who wouldn't want to leave the refugee camp, right? It's a hardship. It's a place where people are still praying to just find a way to get out. When we first moved here, we faced a lot of difficulties with the language barrier, adapting to the culture, a lot of things. And when you mentioned about the bothness, yes, I was excited, but also now I'm nervous. Like, what's going on? Just navigating that. And I'm still navigating. Looking back right now, I was like. I didn't know I lived in between two worlds, the world that I survived and the one that I'm learning to navigate, you know?
- Speaker #1
Welcome to It's Both. I'm your host, Nikki P, a therapist and storyteller who believes that life isn't either or. It's both. And each week, we dive into real stories about holding multiple truths, building resilience, and making sense of life's messy middle. In today's episode of It's Both, I'm joined by Abdi Kadir, who shares his extraordinary journey from spending 14 years in a refugee camp in Kenya to starting over in the United States. Abdi opens up about the bothness of his experience, the excitement and the fear of moving to a new country, the burden and the privilege of being the eldest sibling, and the complexities of adapting to a new culture while also honoring the one that he came from. Abdi's story is one of courage, community, and hope. And a reminder that. even in the hardest seasons, we can hold multiple truths at once. It really is one of the most impactful episodes we've had to date. So let's jump in. Today, I am talking to Abdi Qadir, and I'm so excited for our conversation today, just to get to hear about your life, your story, and all of that. So thank you for being here.
- Speaker #0
Thank you for having me.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. So before we jump in, I would love it if you could tell everybody a little bit about who you are.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, so Abdi is a humble soul. I'm a father of three beautiful children, 16-year-old son and 14-year-old daughter and four-year-old daughter. So I'm a loving husband, the oldest for my family, a lot of responsibility. Of course, I'm a social worker by chance. My degree is not related to social work.
- Speaker #1
Really? What's your degree?
- Speaker #0
Family Consumer Science with concentration of child development. Wow. Yeah, I came to Safe Haven as an intern and they offered me a position and I'm like, you know, sure. I love the environment and all of that. Yeah, I'm a soccer player. Wanted to pursue a career in soccer, but didn't work out due to injuries. Pretty much adventurous. I like to hike a lot and run and play soccer, watch soccer. Yeah, my family see me as a leader, which I don't know if I have the quality or the criteria. Again, leadership is not my, you know, area of expertise, I guess, but I'm walking towards there. Hopefully one day I will become a leader in the, you know, in the real world. But as far as for my family, they lean on me and just, you know, making sure that I don't do too much errors because a lot of people watching me, right? Yeah. So that's who I am. And just I don't have anything exciting.
- Speaker #1
I think that's pretty exciting. And also, I remember you telling me you love soccer, but did you did you used to play in school and growing up your whole life?
- Speaker #0
Yes. Yes. So when we first moved here, it's funny. Like I started my whole entire education in ninth grade. I don't know if you know about that. But I didn't, you know. Yeah. So when we settled here, I started ninth grade. My mom was afraid of, you know, like just allowing me to go play soccer for high school. I did the tryouts. I made it. The coach wanted me to play, but she said no. and I totally understand from her perspective because she was concerned about you know like the unknown about this new country and all of that so I did you know just accept her words and didn't argue with her the next year I tried out again and the coach was like you know what you are great you have talent you shouldn't waste your talent you should play and then he came to my mom actually and he was like hey your son has a you know talent you know you should not like wasted or whatnot. You should allow him to play. And he also offered transportation because that was the barrier as well. Yeah. So he was an amazing person. I had a scholarship for soccer and everything. So yeah, I played. And then I also played a little bit of semi-pro. So yeah.
- Speaker #1
I didn't know that either.
- Speaker #0
Yes, yes, yes. I was trying. But then, you know, of course, I had a surgery. I tore my ACL. So it was not fun. that kind of like ended my career of soccer, but I still play competitive level right now. Cause I took surgery, but it's just not the, you know, like level I want it to be. And plus age is catching up to me.
- Speaker #1
Sure. Well, thank you for sharing that. Now I love getting to hear a little bit about more about who you are and some fun things that I didn't know.
- Speaker #0
Like also me and you, we got to know through work. So yeah, just your. positive energy and the way that you present yourself. It just was amazing. I was like, you know, she's a great leader. So I will just want to say that, you know, just keep being you, Nicole.
- Speaker #1
Thank you. Oh, that means so much to me. Thank you for such kind words. Well, I, you know, I would love it if you could share. I know a little bit about your story. I'm sure there's so much that I don't know. But for others listening, talk to us just about how this idea of the bothness or feeling and experiencing and thinking multiple things at once. How has that shown up for you in various ways throughout your life?
- Speaker #0
Yes. So other people that don't know about me, I moved to the United States back in 2004 as a refugee resettlement. We came from a camp that's called Kakuma Refugee Camp in northwestern Kenya. And people that don't know about refugee camp, refugee camp is a place where people fled their home countries due to wars. violence, persecution, seek for temporary shelter and safety. And, you know, yeah, so this is a camp where many other groups, like from Congo or Somalia or Ethiopia, Sudanese, they come and they seek for, like, you know, asylum through there, not just for safety. My family and I came from Kakuma refugee camp, and we settled here back in 2004. The way that bothness showed up for me is like, you know, living in refugee camp. Life wasn't easy, right? We faced with many hardships, lack of food, lack of clean water, just years for waiting just, you know, to have a chance to be resettled somewhere. And then, of course, we had the opportunity to come to the United States, right? They said, hey, you know, your name come up. We are taking you to a country far away. And I'm like, oh, yes, thank you, God. You know, because like it was opportunity that we couldn't even, you know, we didn't even know that it was real. And then, of course, it had me thinking. I was young. I was always curious, growing up curious, asking questions, you know, a little smart in my own way. Okay, we are going far away from here. That's good. Everybody talked about opportunity in the camp, like, you know, good jobs, education, safety, you know, home. And I want it all, you know, knowing that my mom and I. my siblings, if we get out of the refugee camp, we'll have a better opportunity in this country where we don't even know anything about it, right? Because prior to that, I didn't know what the United States is. And then I was like, okay, how would that look like? So I had the feelings of excitement. I was excited, the fact that I was moving away from the camp, but also there was one particular thing that I couldn't shake underneath because of the fear of not belonging in that country. you know like not knowing if i would be able to fit in in the country because if we don't know the language you know yeah we don't have same culture we don't have same religion how would this look like you know so yeah just coming here it was just a little bit of kind of worriness but also exciting because of who wouldn't want to leave the refugee camp right it's a hardship is a place where people are still praying to just find a way to get out when we First moved here, we faced a lot of difficulties with the language barrier, adapting to the culture, a lot of things. And when you mentioned about the bothness, yes, I was excited, but also now I'm nervous, like, you know, what's going on? Just navigating that. So that's how it come about. And I'm still navigating. Looking back right now, I was like, I didn't know I lived in between two worlds, you know, the world that I survived and the one that I'm learning to navigate, you know?
- Speaker #1
Gosh, I mean, that is talk about the experience of bothness, right? And at such a young age, when I would imagine, you know, especially not knowing anything about this country that you're going to, and yes, there's excitement. And you're like, yes, I you know, possibility and hope, but then also, so much fear, I would imagine I would be terrified. I mean, even when I traveled to a new place. Now, you know, there's still some anxiety, even as an adult, you're like, Oh, am I gonna know? And that's as an adult, right? With all these additional tools that we have. So to be a child in that space, oh, I can't imagine all the conflicting things happening at once.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And not just that, but you know, like when, if you are, if we were traveling with both parents, it would have been a lot easier in a way because of now traveling with a single mother who does not also speak any English, them as me. And we, I have like three brothers and one sister and I'm the oldest. I'm just 14. I'm not that old for me to have this father responsibility or duties for me to kind of like portray for these young siblings. So, okay, what is that going to look like? So we came here, we just trust the process because we wanted an opportunity. And as we came here and, you know, like things have worked out, worked out in a, you know, better way for us, you know, of course we had to put a lot of hard work, effort in learning the language and just trusting the process, but we are here now.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. Well, even as you were describing that, I was thinking, gosh, even the tension of, cause I didn't realize it yet having a single mom. And then, so what was that? Five children? Was there five of you total? So five children and, you know, 14, you're still a kid. I mean, you're... I'm sure maturity and there's obviously wisdom at 14 that you're going to have and some, as you mentioned earlier, leadership, you know, in your family and all that. Gosh, talk about the tension of being like having to be a leader and a father-like figure and also a child at the same time.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So I'm glad that you brought that point because of one, like, you know, when we come here, of course, mom had to work, you know, like she has to pay bills because of back then in refugee camp, we didn't have. bills like paying rent or anything like that so she has responsibility then of course like we don't have a child care like you know who is going to look after these kids but i'm also young 14 myself i still want to be a child i still want to experience that especially in this new country all the opportunities that we have how can i navigate that uh but i still have to show up uh as for my siblings cook for them when mom goes to work look after them and then when mom gets back from work, you know, I have to run to the, you know, like after school programs, like learn English language and, you know, go play soccer if I have a little time. So I had to navigate all of this because of one, I didn't want it, you know, like to fail, like, you know, in the eyes of my siblings, you know, I didn't want it to just kind of like say, oh, you know what, I want to be a kid and let me just do that. But I knew that growing up, I have experienced all this hardship in a refugee camp, my siblings don't. know anything about it. And until today, I tell them the stories, how I used to go walk for miles, French water, go collect for woods to make fire, to cook. It's just that they don't understand that. But then me coming here, especially not having a father, but there was one word that stuck to me. My father, when we first, when we were living there, he told me that, hey, you know, you are father for your, you know, like siblings. So just know you are the man of the household now, because I will not be there with you because my mom and my dad didn't come together. He had another family. So I'm like, you know what? I don't know what this responsibility means, but I will try my best, right? So I came to the United States, just that would stick to me. And I was like, I'm going to make sure that I show up for my siblings. I make sure I do my part. Yeah, it was a lot of a huge responsibility, but I felt like I did my part for what I could do. I wanted to be a kid, but also I also wanted to be a responsible. big brother. So that was like kind of like a conflict in time, but I'm glad that I overcome and everything has worked out.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Well, and I'm, yeah, I'm thinking too, gosh, even your experience at the refugee camp, how long were you all there? How long was your family there?
- Speaker #0
It was different times. So I, at first, like I was, I was like one year old when my parents My parents migrated from Somalia to Kenya. So there was two refugee camps. First, we came to one and then we migrated from there to another one. And it was 14 years of my life just being in a refugee camp, you know, before I moved to the United States. And just learning how to navigate, you know, the way of life in refugee camp. Again, this is a place where multiple groups of people come together and you just have to lean on each other for support and ways to survive. because of one, you only get food once a month and it's not enough to last even for the whole month. You have to know when the food trucks will come. If you don't know, then you have to know other people that will be able to tell you that. If you go to the French water, which I was doing that, my part, because I would say I started as like 10 year old, just going French in water, but because of my mom cannot go and do that. But my dad mostly was not, you know, there. But as the older brother, I have to always do this. Fetch water, walk for miles. Sometimes, you know, like you don't even get the water because of this long line of waiting. And that responsibility, again, it followed me to the United States, which I have to show up for my family in a way. But just knowing that I had to walk miles to fetch water, go to the woods with, you know, older adults, you know, collect woods or to make fire. So it has always been. constant survival mode. And then of course, if you don't have food, then you just pray that, you know, you make it to the next day. On top of that, there's also... conflict that's going on in refugee camp. You brought several groups that are not from the same country. We are from Somalia, but there's also people from Congo. There's people from Ethiopia. There's people from Sudan. And of course, most of them left their war-torn country for sake of seeking survival. But then at the same time, we come here, we're all trying to navigate. The food is not enough. Sometimes there's food shortage. There's sometimes like Like people will leave at night and come to your house to, you know, like get whatever belongings, like whatever you have. So it was like more of like a survival. So I'm glad that, you know, that time has come where, you know, we were able to settle here. But it was constant survival mode.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. I think it's probably something I feel like especially right now with just kind of where the world is that people don't. understand. And I feel like your experience and your story is so important and needs to be shared. It matters so much. And I had no idea what that experience was like. I haven't been through it, so I can't know. And so to be able to hear, I mean, 14 years of being in survival mode, knowing what that, I know what that does to like the nervous system and the body and growing up. And that's a lot mentally and emotionally. Yeah,
- Speaker #0
so my mom even faced more difficult than what I did because when she was fleeing our country, Somalia, of course, people were killing each other. So like that survival looked different than the survival in the camps because in the camps, we were migrants. Of course, like there's a refugee. I came here as a refugee resettlement and there's people who are migrating right now coming to the United States. As a refugee, you left your war-torn country due to violence. due to persecution, due to tribal issues. You left there because you wanted to survive. But as a migrant, you have a chance. Either it is economic issues that's going on within your country, instability-wise, and then also personal reasons that you come to a neighboring country to seek for asylum. But for us, we didn't have no choice but to leave because they are constantly killing you have to get your family out so my mom has seen all the killings but then of course that followed us we come to the refugee camp people were still doing this stuff because of people could not get along together and then that followed us and then talking about that uh and you brought a good point with everything that's going on with within our country my inherent country yeah where the president is closing doors on people are seeking asylum it's just a lot and i wanted to even address that as well because of I came here as a refugee, a resettlement, right? Again, this has showed up for both because I see immigration as a topic where I'm all up for the right way because I came here as the right way. There's other people who are migrating. Every country has the right to put an order in place, has the right to protect their borders, enforce laws. It is laws. But at the same time, you can't close doors on people who are just fleeing. war-torn country seeking asylum in the right way. And what this administration is doing right now is pretty much like closing doors on everyone. But again, I have that bothness feelings of I'm okay with reinforcing our border and structure, having a structure around the border, reinforcing laws around our border, making sure people get into our country in the right way. But at the same time, you can't just do mass deportation on other people who came here. in the right way and separate families and all of that, right? Because yes, if people have bad reputation or they have committed a crime, take them out of here. But don't do that to families and kids, separating parents and kids. Because I have the firsthand experience of fleeing a country that's war-torn, coming to a refugee camp and then seeking asylum here as a refugee. And I'm a living proof that. People who come to the United States as a refugee or as an immigrant could do positive things or contribute positive things to the society, you know? So I have that bothness feeling. But at the same time, my heart is breaking for the families that are being separated and all of that. And it just hurts me. So I always think about my people back home in the camp. They always talk to me like, hey, you know what? Our process is moving fast. And then all of a sudden it just stops, of course. All hopes have been shattered and there's no hope. But I just tell them, hey, just don't give up. Be hopeful. Things will change. So that's also another way of how both of us have showed up in my life. Just knowing that as a refugee resettlement, you know, like, of course, and other people that are getting kicked out because of even if you have green cards nowadays. Yeah, they're keeping people from not coming to the country again. They came in in the right way, but they went back to visit their family who are either sick or something is wrong with it. But then now you can't come in because you don't have a citizen or passport, so it's not good.
- Speaker #1
I'm so glad you shared that because it's something that's been on my mind for a long time. We talk about bothness a lot with feelings, but what I think we often forget is you can have a bothness in beliefs as well. And I think one great example of that is, I think you articulated it so well, right? You can believe in protecting your country, protecting your borders, whatever language you want to use. You can believe in a due process for that. And you can also believe in the dignity and the humanity of individuals that exist here, regardless of where their home country is. Both of those things can coexist. And I think a lot of what has happened right in our country has become this divisive divide. You either protect your country or you let everyone in. There's just so much misinformation even with that. And it breaks my heart because even hearing as you talk, I'm like, you are absolutely right because there can be due process and there can be dignity and respect and honoring of individuals. Absolutely. And I also think to myself, I go, I'm also a parent of three children. And if I were in a country where I feared for my safety, my life, my... stability, whether it be food or economic or physical harm, like whatever. Are you kidding me? I would do anything I had to do to get to a country. I don't care. I mean, I don't care legal or not. I would protect my family. And of course, I would want to do it the right way. But I think what I'm saying is how many of us go, if we were threatened in that way, you're telling me you wouldn't do whatever you could to get to safety, you know? So I think just acknowledging that aspect of like, this is so complex, this is so layered, and you got to mix, you have to find the middle between grace and compassion.
- Speaker #0
That's right.
- Speaker #1
And protection. So I thank you for sharing that, because I think we need to talk about that more.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And it's funny for myself, to be honest, I've always like, okay, you know what, you're going to the United States, but what would you face? What would that look like? Again, I say, I always give myself as example. I'm up. black man right and i i practice islam and i'm a refugee so i have all this like what is the media negative image i guess in a way i have all of it and i didn't make the choice to be that i came to this world i exist i just want to exist just like anyone else but with all of that i always question how i do things am i doing you know something that is going to get me in trouble how would that look like just going stepping outside of the uh the door you know each day just going outside, hey, you know, someone could look at you because of your religion is different. Someone could look at you different because of your refugee or immigrant. And then someone could look at you different because of your color of the skin. And I'm like, oh my goodness, I have all of this. But then at the same time, there are other people that accept me for who I am. I go to my work. I have a beautiful environment where colleagues never really judge me for who I am, for my skin of color, the ethnicity, for my... language, I guess, barrier, because I have accent, huge accent, because English is not my native language, right? I'm learning, you know, constantly learning. So they accept me for who I am. And also just, you know, empower me and, you know, support me. So like, I have this fear of stepping outside of the house. But also at the same time, when I get out of the house and go to work, I have people that I can rely on, like people I can, you know, like lean on as support, and that gives me hope. So I could be all this difference, but. But at the same time, there are also people who see me not just like someone different, but as a human being, just the way they are, you know. So I'm always mindful and just, you know, like seeing how I operate in my daily life as well. And I always tell my kids, too, you know, like, hey, just know that you embrace your difference, but at the same time, don't do anything to get you in trouble. You know, like, you know, if anything comes up, just know how to navigate the situation, you know. x y and z we always talk about it especially my 16 year old son you know who is just amazing soccer player as i am who's just trying to be as best as he can in soccer and he he has you know hispanic friends he has you know uh caucasian friends he has black friends and i'm like yes you know respect everyone uh for who they are embrace you know inclusion always you know don't don't try to uh you know like use that the ethnicity or the difference in a negative way. So that's what I always tell them.
- Speaker #1
Gosh, and it's so beautiful. And also what I hate about it though is, and I think you articulated it well, you are a person that has automatic assumptions from a lot of people here in America because of race, religion, your status as an immigrant or refugee. you you have these things yes your gender i mean that's a lot of things all of which there's so much just incorrect and negative bullshit right around this and and you every single day like i'm thinking back to how you described a refugee camp and in a way you're still experiencing that level of survival right because you are always sort of in protective mode because you are as acknowledging my privilege. I'm a white woman who was born in this country, but with the privilege I have, I don't wake up every day and have to worry, what if I do something wrong? It's the immense, I would imagine, pressure and anxiety of that for you. Talk about the bothness again, right? Like you wake up and you go, I'm proud of who I am. I am a person. I'm proud to be here. And also, I got to be on guard because everyone else is not there yet.
- Speaker #0
It is. Yeah, I totally agree. Because of like, again, of course, I would never think I'm not proud to be here. Because if you tell me right now, hey, let me take you back to the refugee camp, I'll say no, hell no, I'm not going. I'm staying here. Although there's some sort of like ways that I have to navigate, I would rather navigate it in that way, rather than you just you taking me back to, you know, to the camp. So a lot of times when especially speaking of this mass deportation, when you try to take people of course they are going to hide because they don't want to go back to the hardship or to the scariness right they want to stay here and just do the right thing but again just knowing that how you navigate to navigate the world around you is amazing because again i learned how to do that back home as a young age and came here and then i was like you know what i need to always be mindful of and be on survival mode just because of i mean comfort level i have home. you know i'm in a place of safety safety i'm proud to be here in the united states because this country has the most amazing as far as like security or whatever here as far as like military wise so uh like always just you know thinking of like forefront so i'm proud to be here you know but uh at the same time we still have to be mindful but do it in the right way implement the right vote of uh control laws and while it's still honoring the dignity and you know like the contribution of the immigrants that come here and doing the right thing because you have people like myself and many others that are doing the right thing and of course i'm muslim i'm practicing islam but that doesn't mean that they care about me because of they have the wrong idea and you know that's not what our religion portrays just you know do it in the right way the right process and it's still we'll try to uh have you know at least doors not closed on everyone else because there's still refugees that trying to come they left their country again refugee and immigrant some immigrants coming to united states because of economic uh stability in that country is not good but refugees they fleeing a war like you know like they are killing them they are raping them you don't wanna you know like stay there so if you come here I'm asking you to live again. Of course, I will not do it. You will take me wherever you want, but I'm not going back. But yes, that's what I see. There's always this idea of bothness, like, you know, okay, you're feeling safety, you're feeling all the things, but also at the same time, you're still feeling scared.
- Speaker #1
I want to pause here for a second because I know some of you listening are going to relate to this next part. You've built a good life. You're showing up for everyone else, kids, partner, work, friends, and you've done all the right. things to take care of yourself. The journaling, the workouts, the books, and yet you're still tired, still anxious, still feeling like you're running on fumes. If that's you, hear me now, you are not failing. You're just stuck in survival mode and no amount of doing is going to work until your nervous system feels safe. That's exactly what you'll work on inside the Courageous Living Group from Janice Holland. She's also known as the trauma teacher and she's a licensed psychotherapist. and certified trauma model therapist who helps high functioning women finally find relief the courageous living group is a 60-day nervous system reset for women who are done over functioning people pleasing and holding it all together this group reset includes eight weekly group sessions that are live but are also recorded in case you can't attend the live sessions you'll have lifetime access to the course portal including replays weekly journal prompts with integration practices somatic healing tools and a private whatsapp group chat for support because you don't need to do more you need to feel safe enough to receive the life you've already built click the link in the show notes below to get started and how do you just
- Speaker #2
day in day out how do you and your family live in that space of bothness and that tension because i would imagine there's kind of like you get used to it but also it doesn't make it easy right it's still gonna be hard it doesn't
- Speaker #0
you know of course especially for i mean sometimes i can blend in right uh i'm okay i get the hair cuts or whatever i may have some you know like features that actually describes like you know i'm from africa or whatever but at the same time for my wife who wears hijab like you know she has to cover and all of that it's easy for someone to portray like you know okay you know what she's someone who's practicing islam it's easy for me to blend in you know people would not recognize me like you know I practice Islam or anything like that, right? No one will come to me and say, oh, you know what? It's written on your forehead that you are practicing Islam. But for someone like my wife, of course, she's wearing hijab. She has to cover herself. Then it's easily easy target, right? So, you know, a lot of times when we go to the public and stuff, or maybe when she's going by herself with my daughter, just like for a walk, I tell her that, you know, please, please, please just be careful always you know just I don't leave the house without saying I love you to her. It's just because of, I don't know what is going to happen to me or what is going to happen to her. Just leaving the house, just, I don't know. So I always tell her, hey, I love you. Just know that if there's anything going on, just let me know. But for someone like myself, I'm not worried about myself a lot because I'm a male. I'm like, I am constantly worried for her. Sometimes she goes to the gym because we have a gym close to us. And she likes to run to get her warm up in. And I'm like, please be careful because you never know what's going on in this world. You know, there's people who are out there like that may not see you as someone who's just trying to go get a workout in. So just be careful. So, yeah, I just try to navigate with like a little bit of hope, like hoping that everything is going to be all right because we are in a safe country. And then also at the same time, just a little bit of worriness because we don't know the unknown what is going to happen.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. Well, and there's still, especially with our climate right now in our country, there's a lot of safety and yet there's also a lot of hatred and misinformation. And it just breaks my heart that, you know, I mean, how do you, I guess, and maybe how does she and you deal with the anxiety of that? That's, I mean, that's just, I hate it for you because the fact that you have to worry every time you leave the house about how someone might perceive you. That just shouldn't... It shouldn't be that way.
- Speaker #0
So I'm glad that you bring that point. So like, you know, for me, myself, we lean on each other, me and her. Again, speaking of the two, you know, world that we navigate, right? I grew up from a culture that we don't quote unquote believe in therapy, right? So counseling or anything like that, you know, we don't believe in. For parents, they don't believe in that. One, maybe they didn't even have the, you know, like counselors. you know they didn't have the you know what is it uh the resource but um you know coming to here like you know just you know like a lot of times people when they face trauma or like you know traumatic event happen they try to uh you know like lean on professional help, right? But us, we just lean on each other. Like, you know, if something happens or like, you know, in the community or in the real world, and we see it on either on social media or we see it on the news or, you know, we actually experience it in real life, we just kind of like lean on each other, pray that, you know, we are going to be okay. And then, you know, like just create that space. Sometimes we don't even have to talk. We don't have to say anything, just a space of silence. knowing that we can process that together just knowing that she has me and I have her and then also relying on our families too like our immediate family like you know again my mom's is the only one here my father's not here but she always reach out to me even till today as far as navigating because if she has to go to a doctor's appointment if she has to go to like anything or she has to do anything with her work I'm the one who's always navigating for her so anytime that situation like that happen. I call for a family meeting. I just say, hey, let's talk, you know, and hear each other out. Like, you know, see how that person is feeling. Because just because she's my wife doesn't mean that she processes things the way I do, you know? Just because he's my brother doesn't mean that he processes things the way I do. I just want to hear them out and see, like, okay, what can I do to support them? What can I do, you know, to kind of, like, make sure that something like that. doesn't happen to my family if it is a negative factor, but also what can I do to lend support on them? How can I ask them for help? So yeah, it's just always about just having that family moment, talking through things out and just making sure that we are always, we have each other. And then also if we need professional help, the person get the right professionals to, you know, like help with that as well.
- Speaker #2
Well, and I think just even as you were talking, I'm like, you questioned if you were a leader earlier. I just feel like I need to say you are absolutely a leader, not only in your family, it seems like in your community, but also at work. And so just even hearing the way you support, you know, I think leadership means loving and supporting those around you. And that's, to me, what leadership is. Right. And so I think we're showing that day in and day out everywhere.
- Speaker #0
I appreciate you. I appreciate you. Sometimes people require to put a label, but day in and day out, some people portray the action. of either leadership or we portray that. But at the same time, I'm not the type of person that asks for validation. I do this with heart. I care about my family. I care about parents. Although, you know, my father was not in my life during the time that I really needed him. I was like, you know, a young adult because I needed a father that will guide me. So I see like, you know, life right now. I was the one who has been through the hardship for my brother and my... kids to not suffer for that. Being the first generation in my family to go to college, now I can talk about to my son and my brother, like what to avoid and what not to avoid, right? As far as student loans and other things like credit cards and all of these things, because I was the first-hand experience to navigate all of this. So again, the feelings of bothness, right? I appreciate being the first to navigate this so that way they can avoid that. But at the same time, I wish there was a person that was older than me to help me guide and talk to me about all of this. So that way I don't have to suffer as much as I'm suffering right now. Does that make sense? Yes.
- Speaker #2
It definitely does. Yeah. Yeah. And again, gosh, the bothness, right? Shows up everywhere because you're like, as a leader, you get the sense, I would imagine, in my experience, right, of empowerment. And also, thank goodness I did this so you don't have to. And also, why did I have to? to do it.
- Speaker #0
I have to suffer, right?
- Speaker #2
You know, especially I would imagine being the oldest child in your family, the oldest male child, like all of this expectation, understandably, right? Like you understand the context, there's grace for it. And yet it doesn't make it easier. It's still an immense amount of pressure on you to figure it out and be the first and do all the hard things, which it's just hard. That's so hard.
- Speaker #0
It is. It is not easy. And for me, I just navigated that way because if I was not the right person for being the oldest brother or being the father of my kids, God wouldn't put me in that position. But then again, there are a lot of people who have kids and they're neglecting their kids and not doing that. But I mean, I just appreciate and kind of look at it that way, where if I'm struggling financially or whatever, I will overcome. You know, I'll overcome that because God has put me in this position to kind of like process and just, you know, appreciate if I become financial stability one day that I will not waste my money and use it in the right way. But for right now, if I'm going through a struggle, it's going to be, it's going to go away. It's going to be a short time. But, you know, I always look at us. I am the oldest brother. I am the one who went through all of this. At the same time, I appreciate for being there for them and all of that. But it feels good to have the first degree in my family, just to say, hey, I went to college before you. But setting up the bar high for them. I started my whole entire education in ninth grade. My son does not have any excuse for him to say that I cannot do it. Navigated the hardship of refugee camp. I came here. you know be present for you know like my siblings as an older brother as a father figure and also not just that stuff uh did i didn't stop there but i went above and beyond you know because coming to united states okay again the idea of bothness right uh coming to united states i had to navigate everything i didn't know how to read the label i didn't speak the english language so i felt invisible and exposed at the same time because of i couldn't understand the language in the hallway like you know people talk about me or whatnot so i just have to like say oh you know what i am gonna keep trying keep pushing but now looking back right now i didn't know i lived in between the two worlds like you know again that world that i overcome and the one that i'm living in right now i'm still navigating just this idea of bothness of just knowing that i can tell my son that hey you know you don't have no choice for but to strive for excellent you know so i'm gonna keep pushing and but at the same time i will leave room for grace, I guess, in a way, because he's a unique individual of his own. I don't want to put pressure. I want him to do things that he loves, just like the way he selected soccer to be his favorite sport. I played soccer. It doesn't mean that I have to reinforce that in him and say, hey, you know what? You have to play soccer. That's not how it works because it puts pressure on the child. And then later on, you have a child that's not doing things right and all of that. So I just allow him to be a child. you know, help him navigate the world in the way that I see because I have been through more hardship than he did. So I tell him, appreciate, because if he has privilege, I don't have, like he had all this privilege, you know, studying his entire education, elementary, middle school, high school, but I didn't have that, you know, I didn't have that. So, and then also just, you know, appreciating the fact that he has a father that has been through a struggle and, you know, like at least... I have navigated life in more hardship or difficult level than he does. So right now, him being here, opportunity being there for him, all he has to do is just, you know, like have the right mindset and, you know, go for it.
- Speaker #2
Well, and it's kind of amazing to hear you, I mean, in so many areas, right, of your life, seeing this idea of bothness and tension. And I'm curious, what might you say to others who are struggling to recognize the bothness and to navigate it? What would you say to them and how you have found to kind of navigate the two sides of all of these experiences?
- Speaker #0
I will probably tell you that to be open minded on everything that is going on in life because of every person is different, right? What I face or the challenges or like the bothness that I face, somebody else is different. But if you are somebody that can relate to what I'm going through, I would say just be open minded because of that. again i have the experience of a little bit of the culture back home and then also the culture in the United States. So I'm in between. I can understand the hardship and I can understand the privilege that I had growing up here. So I have to also always be mindful of that situation. So just kind of like having more intentional moment with him or with family members. We always have family meetings and stuff like that because of that. I was talking to my youngest brother who's 21. I was talking to him and telling him about everything that I have went through. Again, my mom and my father divorced at an early age when they had me first. And then after that, they got back together, right? And then they had my other siblings, right? So I was telling my brother that, hey, you know, this has happened. He was like, what? I didn't know about that. And he was like, you know, so what else happened in the camp? And I was telling him about the whole story of how the hardship and what I had to do. do like and then coming to united states even i was carrying one as at the age of 14 because uh my mom was carrying the 21 year old he was like a baby he was like one year old um because we will be like what is it august will be august 14 will be our 21st year in the united states so he was one year old at that time yeah and then i would like we had my sister who's like right after me and then we have this two like three year old and then you know of course five year old two years support So mom has to hold one, carry one, carrying bags. And I was telling him all of this. I had to navigate all of that and just kind of like talking to him. And I was like, you know what? just know that appreciate what you have and make sure you don't you know like use it in the wrong way but for someone who has experienced bothness of my world i'll just say keep being patient be patient don't never stop showing up or presenting yourself in the way that you do resilience of course just being hopeful that things will change you know even if you cannot change the situation but right at that moment if you have good things and bad things going on and you want to change the bad thing don't force the change, just kind of like trust the process and walk towards it. Don't just rush through it. So I navigate it and like, okay, this has happened. I can't change. I'm a refugee. Can't change that. I practice Islam. I can't change that. I'm a black man. I can't change that. There's things that I could change. What can I change? And what can I not change? The things that I could change, I'll try to walk towards it and change that. But things that I I cannot change, just accept it and just. process it in a way that you know it's not going to get me in trouble or like you know i'm not presenting myself in a position or in a environment where you know that could get me in trouble so if i am uh what is it practicing islam and i'm at the wrong convention and you know like saying oh allahu akbar or things like that of course that's a red flag you know people will think that you are doing something wrong so just making sure that if i am in public setting you know Accept my religion in a respectful way. If somebody else is practicing theirs, if we're having a debate or discussion, have it in a respectful manner rather than disrespecting that person's religion, disrespecting that person's appearance or who they are. And a lot of times, if conflict comes up, I just try to avoid it. Because at the end of the day, if someone is not willing to understand to a certain degree, then you can't really force him to understand. So just walk away. So I always try to give this life lessons or talk to them in a way. So that way they are able to navigate. So keep showing up. If you ever like this between bothness, if it show up in your life, just keep navigating in the way you are doing. Don't force for change. Just accept what has happened, which is in the past and then walk towards the future. How you could prevent that. Again, my parents left each other while I was young. I can't change that. I didn't know. their situation. I never asked them. I never asked them, why did you guys left each other? Why I had to suffer for seven years without a mother. And then after that, like reconnected with my mom, they got married again. And I'm like, right now I'm almost a decade older than my youngest, like my next sister. So I'm like, it's okay. I accept that.
- Speaker #2
Gosh. Well, thank you so much, Abdi. I really... I mean, thank you for being so vulnerable, for being willing to tell your story, so many of your stories and how you've navigated this tension in the space and all of the just immense hardships that you've had to face and still face to this day. And yet all of the wonderful, incredible things that you get to experience as well. But really that bothness that I think you've articulated so beautifully. And I think it's just, it's very inspiring to hear you talk about how this has shown up for you and how you navigate your daily life. And I think this really will be really impactful for anybody that listens.
- Speaker #0
I appreciate you. And I just wanted to say, if you allow me, I would like to give a big shout out to people that have showed up in my life. Just being in your platform, you know, like because of coming to the United States, life wasn't easy for us to navigate and settle here. But I just wanted to highlight those names that have showed up for me. And until today, there are some people who came into my life as a volunteer, but they are family to me now. they are still involved in my life it's 21 years and they're still there you know so um you know i just want to highlight their names like carolyn carolyn cantwell and her husband of cantwell and their fam like their entire family because their kids were also part of our life like you know been there helping us with the english language christine and hope and anna i just want them to know and this is the family that's still in our life they still show up for us they still call us, you know, support us. So I can't really forget who showed up for me. And then other people like, you know, volunteer groups that I used to go to after school programs. There are some people that are not connected with me right now, even on social media. But there are some that are connected with me on social media. And if they ever have a chance to see this, because I will share myself. If they ever have a chance to see this, I want them to know that I appreciate them. You know, George Marchetti, Josh, Alison, Alicia, Catholic Charities, Jennifer. So all of these people have showed up for me. But also, I just want to say that I appreciate my work group, my people that I work with, who have opened the opportunity to work in the professional world for me. Hope and Jennifer Rizin, they are amazing people. I just want to just acknowledge and take this little moment to appreciate them because, again, these are the people that believed in me. These are the people that kind of like showed up for me, supported me. These are the people who never looked at me my difference. That gives me hope. That gives me a chance to say what everyone is not the same. Some people, there are some people who have genuine heart. Thank you, Nicole, for giving me this opportunity to join your platform because of who knows if I was still in refugee camp, I wouldn't have this opportunity. But you know, being here in the same workspace, joining meetings with you you know just you know like saying you know what, Abdi, I invite you to my platform. And I appreciate that, you know, so thank you so much. Thank you to everyone else who listens. And I just want you to know that I thank you highly.
- Speaker #2
Thank you. I love that. I love how you even, you know, ensure that you're taking time to give, to state these names and give that love and honoring of them back. It's just so beautiful. I think again, and to even to me as well, it's just again, showing what an amazing human you are, what an amazing man you are. So thank you for that.
- Speaker #0
Thank you so much.
- Speaker #2
Well, before we go, totally unrelated to everything we've talked about, I would love it if you could share what is something that you do or think or an irrational fear or a quirk that is either ridiculous or maybe relatable, maybe both.
- Speaker #0
I don't know if it is relatable. I don't know if it is ridiculous, but I have this one thing, I do go to Barber. to pay for my haircut and all of that. And of course, I also pay for to do my facial and stuff. But prior to going there, I do my facial myself. And then I still go there and still pay for it. And it's like, they say, oh, you know what? It's good. And I'm like, yeah, it's good. You can go ahead and fix whatever you want to fix. But it's already fixed because it's just that I have this idea of they may not get it the way I want to do it. You know, like the way I want to see it. But yeah, it's just that I always do that. I don't do anything else but that one thing.
- Speaker #2
So like the same day, like the day before you go, you shave your face and then they go and they shave it?
- Speaker #0
Like seven weeks or seven days. So I go and try to fix my mustache and, you know, my goat thing. And then I go there and then I still pay them for the facial. And then they ask me, look, you already have everything. I'm like, you know, go ahead. Because if I miss one place or one thing or whatnot, you... go ahead perfect it you know because you have the you know what is it the experience or you have the expertise but as of myself it's just that what if they cut more than they're supposed to do you know like i'm like you know what so if you already trace and everything is good they will not do much so they will just kind of like fix the error the little misperfection things like that so uh that's one thing i do i hope people can relate to it yeah i don't know who knows maybe some man you know relate to it
- Speaker #2
Maybe I'll have to ask, I'll do a poll after this and say, like, does anybody else do this? Or maybe for women, maybe it's if they get their eyebrows done, they pluck or do something. Yeah, something that you're going to get it done anyway. Oh,
- Speaker #0
that's it. That's, yeah, that's what I do. Well,
- Speaker #2
thank you. Thank you for sharing. Well, it's great to have you. And I am just so grateful for your time today. Thank you.
- Speaker #1
Before we wrap up today, I want to give you a quick heads up. We've got just two more episodes left in season one of It's Both. After that, I will be taking a short two-week break to rest, reset, and get ready for everything that I've got planned for season two. So stay tuned and make sure you're subscribed so that the next season shows up in your feed the moment it drops on September 23rd. And if this episode resonated with you, it would mean the world to me if you could support the show and help it grow. First, please take a moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts because your words help new listeners to find us. Second, share the episode with someone who might need it. Because that's how this community grows, through real people, real stories, and honest conversations shared from one person to another. Finally, make sure you follow the show so you never miss an episode. Just tap the little plus sign or follow button on the main show page. These really are the most impactful things that you can do for the podcast. So thank you again for listening. And this week, take some time to recognize what in your life is full of bothness. And remember, it's okay to feel all the things. Because so many times in life, it isn't either or. It's both.
