- Speaker #0
And then you spend the next four days crying because you can't believe that you don't know exactly what that person is doing. You know, for 10 years, I knew pretty much where he was all the time. Not like a creepy way, but in like a connected way. Right. And you don't know how they are. And it's unbelievable. I was going to build my life with this person. We had been Jenny and this person for most of my adult life. My first apartment, all of that. I knew my life was going to be beautiful. And I just remember waking up in my bed at my mom's. two days later and being like, I can't breathe. Like it feels like you can't breathe because you've just blown up your whole life.
- Speaker #1
What do you do when life doesn't give you one clear answer? When both things are true? Welcome to It's Both, the podcast for people living in the tension. I am Nikki P and each week we dive into the messy, beautiful contradictions of being human. Those moments when life isn't just one thing. It's many. This week, I'm joined by Olivia and Jenny, the co-founders of Fresh Starts, a support network for people navigating divorce. Both Olivia and Jenny know firsthand that divorce is never just about signing papers. It's about unlearning, rebuilding, and finding yourself again in the in-between. We talk about the stigma that still surrounds divorce, the ripple effects it has on families and friendships, and how humor, whimsy, and the right support can make all the difference. You'll hear about the bothness of relief as well as grief, the importance of community. and why it's okay to walk away from a relationship that isn't life-giving, even if it's not toxic. Whether you're walking through a breakup, supporting someone who is, or simply curious about how people heal from endings, this conversation is an honest, compassionate look at what it means to start fresh. So let's jump in.
- Speaker #2
Welcome, Olivia and Jenny. It's so good to have you here.
- Speaker #3
Thanks, Nikki.
- Speaker #0
It's good to be here.
- Speaker #2
It's so great to see you in person. I think I just follow everything that you guys do on Instagram. And so it's really cool to actually just get a chance to talk to you real life in person. So thank you.
- Speaker #3
Of course.
- Speaker #0
We appreciate that. You know, we're not like two seven year olds and a nine year old anymore. We're real life adults. Yeah. Yeah.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. Sometimes I still can't believe I'm an adult. I'm like, how did I get to be an adult? Who made me an adult?
- Speaker #0
I agree.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. Well, we are going to be talking about the bothness of knowing when is the right time to leave a relationship. And before we jump into that, I would love it if both of you could just tell me and everybody listening a little bit about each of you.
- Speaker #3
Sure. I guess I'll go first because I'm the big sister. My name is Olivia Howell. I am the co-founder and the CEO of Fresh Starts, which is the world's first divorce registry and the premier. Divorce Support Network and Divorce Education Platform. I am a solo mom of two boys who are almost nine and almost 12, which is really insane. And they're almost both taller than me. I live on Long Island. Yeah, it's wild. And my background's in marketing and PR. And then after my own divorce in 2019, I had this realization of why do we celebrate babies and weddings and have registries for those life moments, but we don't have a registry for divorce or breakup or heartache. And so I really thought there was something out there. I really wish that there had been something out there so I didn't have to build it ourselves, but there wasn't. And so I, you know, went through my own divorce experience and kind of noticed all the loopholes and the issues. And we come from a family of divorce. Everybody in our family is divorced so it was very While it was very normalized for us growing up, it was still a stigma. I still felt shame. I still was very confused. I didn't understand the language. And I'm somebody that always looks at a situation and goes, well, how can we teach this better? Like I was a middle school teacher. It was my first career. How can we make learning fun? How can we make this educational experience accessible to everybody? So that's really what we're doing at Fresh Starts. We have written. two guidebooks for divorce that are free ebooks, totally free. You can go download them. They're also available at Amazon and Barnes and Noble and stuff. But we're currently in the middle of a seven, probably more book series when all said is done, all is said and done, about really just normalizing divorce, divorce support. We're literally creating the biggest divorce dictionary on the internet. So you can go in and look up a word and find out what it means. And in plain layperson language. I'm so excited for that. I'm in the final stages of writing a book called How to Get Divorced as a Stay-at-Home Parent because there's no books for that. So we really like to look at situations and say, how can we improve this? I meet with people going through divorce every day. That's something I offer. It's free. And I take whatever they are going through and I help them find resources and experts. If we don't have the resource, we build the resource. We're very, no pun intended, but resourceful people. And so that's pretty much me in a nutshell. I'm a little delusional. I'm a little crazy. I like to do a lot of stuff. And I love what we do. I'm just so grateful for, you know, getting to work with my sister. And we podcast a lot. We have a lot of podcasts, which I do all that. And it's a beautiful life getting to be on the other side and support people coming through.
- Speaker #2
That's awesome.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I'd like to break down in therapy with you, Olivia, the phrase. Because I didn't see it, so we had to build it ourselves, or I wouldn't have built it ourselves.
- Speaker #3
I realize as I said that.
- Speaker #0
I'm quite literally part of her. I'm Jenny. I am the little sister by about two and a half years. And so I don't remember life before Olivia because it didn't exist. So we are one person to me. And I live in Edinburgh, Scotland with my husband. I am the co-founder of NCOO, of Fresh Starts Registry. I sort of make everything work. I run everything. That's not the podcast. Olivia does all the podcasts, all the content, things like that. And I do all of the billing and building websites and emails and everything like that. And yeah, I come out of, we can get into it, but like I came out of a 10 year long relationship and fell into this idea that Olivia had brought to me a couple of and I sat in my empty apartment. As I clicked buy on $10,000 worth of stuff to fill the apartment that I lived in for one year. And then I sold everything and moved to Scotland. So it was a lot of moving. And I thought, this is actually when you need that. This is when you need the thing that she had brought to me two years ago or a year ago. And called her up and said, okay, let's build it. And we just, again, we're resourceful. No startup money, just the two of us. We just figured out how we could do what we wanted to do with the resources available to us.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. I mean, that's amazing because were you both working or doing other things full time?
- Speaker #0
So I, Olivia, was running a social media agency. She started doing that when? 2014.
- Speaker #3
Yeah,
- Speaker #0
2014. She left teaching in 2013 and started doing that in 2014 and writing. Um, and I worked in tech events. So, uh, I did a lot of like badging, RFID, things like that. And then I was working as a technical coordinator and Olivia was always begging me to come work with her. And then, but I worked on the road about three months out of the year and I made pretty good money and it was fun. I would go to Anaheim, California for a month with my boss who I adored and we would get to like go to steakhouses and eat out. And I was up at five in the morning and then, you know, there was like three weeks that I didn't leave the. Bellagio in Vegas once and my vitamin D tanked. It was a really intense, wonderful, cool lifestyle. And my then partner slash later fiance was working at two. So it made sense. She was always begging me to come work with her. And then the pandemic hit and suddenly the part that I loved about my job, which was flying to California and getting to be with people, it's like camp, was gone. And I was working remote and we were still doing events, but it was horrible. And Olivia was like, you can come work with me now. She said, you know, I can't pay you much, but, you know, you can do what you want. You can make your own hours. So we did both of those. And by the time we started Fresh Starts, we were working together at the social media agency. We were running it together. We'd, what, like, made, like, six times the profit that you'd made the year before.
- Speaker #3
We had, like, ten clients.
- Speaker #0
Because it turns out that you need systems when you're working, when you're running a social media company. Olivia was like,
- Speaker #3
vibe.
- Speaker #0
Just vibe.
- Speaker #3
And yeah,
- Speaker #0
he had done that. And so we started quietly sort of building fresh starts. And we always laugh because we were running the social media agency. And it was great. And we loved working together. And you know, you have all these clients and one client leaves, you get another client or you have to fire a client, you get a new client. And we would always look at each other and be like, you know, we're fine as long as all of our clients don't leave us all at once. And then the summer, yeah, the summer, I think it was the summer of 2022, right, Olivia? It was after we started Fresh Starts. So we were like kind of balancing these two things. And Fresh Starts wasn't making any money. We'll get into how we make money, but it wasn't making any money at that point. And then like Domino's, all of our, and I was here, I was in Scotland, right, already. And like Domino's, all of our clients left us. And an impressive, like, and not because of our work, just like.
- Speaker #3
they fold it or you know it was a chain issues we had a lot of product-based clients and that was one like a lot of yeah oh yeah the economy was going to crap and you know a lot of people weren't getting their products so they was yeah and so we were like okay well now we have to figure out we really have we'd started uh
- Speaker #0
our community membership which is how we make money at fresh arts for our experts i'm like okay well now we got to push this and that's what we did And I moved to another country and didn't pay myself for two years. That also helped.
- Speaker #3
Right.
- Speaker #0
That helps you. Yeah.
- Speaker #3
They copied my house.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And Olivia sold her house. Like we really went all in. I was happy to move to this country. That's not why I moved here. But yeah. So yes, we did work together. And at a social media agency already, marketing agency.
- Speaker #3
And I always tell people like we still do the same thing in a way. It's just that we help our experts with their. marketing and PR and business coaching on a more affordable scale for them. Instead of, you know, we were making thousands of dollars a month for one, from one client for social media and doing all their content and posting, which was really burning me out. And it's a lot. And you know, I, we did, we did everything, copywriting, Jenny did all the graphics and scheduling, and I was copywriting and posting and engagement. And it was like, And then, you know, the algorithms changed and clients were like, why am I not getting this? Why am I? And we're like, it's not us, you know. And so we still do marketing and PR and business coaching. We just do it in an affordable scale for experts, which is an idea that I had 15 years ago to do. And it's really cool to see it kind of implemented now at first starts.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. I mean, even just hearing this piece of y'all story is so inspiring. And before we jump into like, you know. the bothness about the relationships. I do just want to say like, I was divorced in 2016. It was a horrible, we were together for a very long time. It was a very like a messy and toxic relationship. And I did it all on my own. And honestly, like, I wish that you all existed back when I went through that experience because everything that you do is what I needed, you know? So I just, yeah, it's very inspiring what you do. I think it's impactful. And thank you. Cause I think so many people are so impacted by it.
- Speaker #3
Thank you. We hear that a lot. We hear a lot of people say, I wish my mom had had this. I wish my grandmother had had this. And, you know, I think- So do we.
- Speaker #0
Like, we wish our mom and our grandmother had had this.
- Speaker #3
Like, I think because we come from, both of us have education backgrounds. Jenny was a preschool teacher. I was a middle school teacher. We understand how to break down information. And we understand that when you're going through a life event, whether it is divorce or coming out or transitioning or job loss, you literally cannot. process information in the same way. And so there's a, there's a lot of platforms and there's a lot of information written by legal experts and you know, all these other people that are like, here's this definition for this thing. And you're like, I don't understand. And so when we, when we write our books, it's important for me and we check each other a lot, or we can't check each other. We'll ask somebody that has gone through something that if we're going to tell people okay call the legal aid pro bono lawyer network here's how you actually pronounce the words that you're going to say when you call them because if you say here's all these latin legal terms and you have right no one's going to know how to do that right so we give scripts for people we literally break down in our books like if you call the women's shelter and they say there's no room what do you do next right who can you call so we're just it's our life's work and and we're just so proud and excited to be there for people. making a difference. You know, we talk about this every day. It's like, we're just so happy that in this time of the world shifting and economic stuff that we're, we're working to really help support people. And that means everything to us.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #2
That's amazing. We talk about this, like tension. And I talk about this a lot in my podcast, feeling multiple things at once, even thinking multiple things at once. And, you know, I love this topic because from my own experience. I remember when I got divorced, that moment when I decided feeling in that same moment, both freedom, joy, like relief, and also such shame and embarrassment and guilt and all these things like all in the same exact second and going, I don't know what to do with all these things. This is the right decision. And it's the wrong decision. Like I remember thinking both. So talk to me about y'all's experience with this. tension or this bothness around knowing you're making the right decision when you're ending a relationship.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Do you want to start since your divorce came before my breakup? Just time-wise?
- Speaker #3
Sure. You know, my marriage wasn't great. It wasn't, it was not a good marriage. I think that if you asked him, he would have said differently, but it wasn't a good marriage. We, our, my kids were three and two and five, really like they were really little. Um, and I had the same experience, like I remember so the way that everything went down with my marriage it was like kind of a slow burn and then like a really big fight that kind of led to like one day of like this is not working and he had come home from work and was basically like I'm leaving and it's funny because even my therapist will often be like Yes, he said he's leaving, but you left. Like it was you like, you know, trying to be on the empowerment side. But totally, I remember that feeling also being like, oh, my gosh, like whatever I say in the next minute is going to define the rest of my life. And I want to be free. And also, I came from a divorced family. And the idea of raising kids with the person I had the kids with was such a foreign concept in our family. And and for me. And so that was really sad. And I really loved being a wife. I love taking care of somebody. I love that identity. I loved having a husband like that was really special to me. And so it was all of those feelings. And even now I'm six years out. I love my life. I'm thriving. I would never want to be back with my ex-husband again. But there is a sadness that comes from like. I shared all these moments with you and we can't talk about them. We don't have a relationship, right? We can't go back and reminisce in the same way, you know? And so there's, there's all of those feelings together. And that's really hard for some people to understand.
- Speaker #2
And I think one thing you said too, I was just thinking, even when you're in a relationship like mine and potentially like yours, you know, without knowing more detail, it was very unsafe. Like it wasn't healthy. It was toxic. And yet there's still sadness. And that I think is really hard for people to understand is even though you need to, it's good for you. It's the right thing. You're still ending a relationship that you spent however many years loving. Some form of love was there. It's so hard.
- Speaker #0
It's the death of the dream too. Nobody gets married or gets into a relationship with somebody and is like, you're probably going to ignore me while I'm postpartum and go play guitar for hours on end. That's what I'm anticipating. You think like... you know speaking to my sister's life like he's a nice half Jewish boy you know we come from a Jewish family like he's he's his dad was a stay-at-home parent like he knows how to do this he's very involved with his family he's nice to me he's nice to my grandmother those were all the things she saw you know he's passionate about his music he loves his music he's passionate about something like all the things she saw and I know that she went into it being like I'm gonna raise kids with my husband and and it's gonna be a new generational cycle-breaking thing for my family. And that is what you walk into marriage dreaming of. That's the thing that you see at the end of the aisle. Not, you know, oh, he's going to tell me that I look fat in these clothes. Like, not that. And so when that goes, the potential of that relationship ever coming to pass, even though you may have made peace with the fact that it's never coming to be and you know realistically it's not. We still want to believe that that person is going to snap out of it and we're going to be able to say the right combination of words to them at the right time that they're going to go, oh, my God, I see your point. Of course. I'm so sorry. I'm going to change. Yeah. And the potential is gone. It's like when somebody passes away and it's the same thing where it's like I am never going to get to speak another word to them. I'm never going to get to fix it or they're never going to get to become the parent I thought they would be. The potential is gone. And that's really hard to deal with.
- Speaker #3
It is. And also like who you were, right? Like you get sad when you get to the end of like, oh my gosh, I let, I not let myself live through that, but that was who I was during this time. And that's not who I thought I was during this time. And, um, often, you know, I don't know about for you, Nikki, but for me, like, I didn't really fully understand what I had been through until I was like safe.
- Speaker #0
Right. Right.
- Speaker #3
And so like, yeah, you know, I, I remember like you know he we we split up in April and then we lived together until August and then he moved out in August and he moved away so I had the chance to physically like I didn't have to see him you know we did mediation on zoom but I remember ordering some books from Amazon that were about abuse and reading them in one weekend and I could not move for three days I was like incapacitated realizing what had happened.
- Speaker #0
It was TikTok that I was like, I started seeing videos about a certain kind of person. We won't call it out on TikTok. And I started sending them to her and she was like, oh my God, this is what happened. We didn't even know what the name was for it.
- Speaker #3
Yeah. So, but at the same time, sad, right? And like, that was my best friend and he made me laugh, you know, trying to wait for my water to break and like all these things. And it's like, but who was that person? And it's very confusing.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And I guess my both end experience, I, you know, I had a very different experience. My relationship wasn't toxic and it wasn't abusive. It just was the wrong, I was the wrong room. I walked into the wrong room and I walked in at a very young age. You know, I always joke because I felt really old when we got engaged. We got engaged when I was like 30 and we'd been together for like eight years. we got together when I was 22. Like I was a child bride in that way, right? Like I, I, I decided on that man early and I was just in the wrong room. And, you know, I've never even shared this on a podcast, but we had a conversation about eight, nine months before we broke up. I don't remember what started or what happened, but he told me he wasn't sure if he loved me anymore. And I couldn't hear it. I couldn't hear it that day. And we both left. I went on a walk with my brother who happened to be nearby and my ex and I came back and my ex wasn't there. And then he came back and I remember I thought like we'll rush towards each other and he'll be like, I'm so sorry. And I think I said something to him like, I know you do. I know you do. I know you love me. And I rushed toward him and he was just kind of like, OK, this is happening. Like, I guess, you know, I don't have to change my lifestyle too much. and I think for me, you know, what I wanted for that future together was to have children. You know, I had done all of the good girl things. It was he was a nice guy from a nice family. And we met when we were young. We had this great story about how we met, though. I have a better story now. So at least there's that. And, you know, he wasn't scary. I knew he wouldn't hurt a baby. Like, you know, all these things that you're sort of checking off. I did notice that, you know, I... I jokingly would call myself the default parent, even though we didn't have kids yet. Like I kind of did everything around the house. And that was hard. That was a major point of contention because not only was I doing everything, but there was also like a lot of running commentary about how I was doing it, which was interesting. Like, so you, you do see it being done and you do.
- Speaker #2
And you're not doing it.
- Speaker #0
Right. You think you have a better way. Go for it.
- Speaker #2
Like go for it.
- Speaker #0
And so I wanted to have a baby and... we sort of were having these really hard conversations around it. We were supposed to get married. We'd gotten engaged after eight years. He had the ring for two years before he gave it to me. Wow. And that was a lot of hard conversations of if it's so not a big deal, then why aren't you doing it? If it's so not a big deal, then why do you need it?
- Speaker #2
He knew he had the ring.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, because he bought it on a Black Friday sale because it was a black diamond and I'd like sent it to him. Like I went ring shopping. not with him mostly. I went with like girlfriends. I went by myself. None of it was fun. And I had another friend that said to me once like, you know, those horrible conversations you have before you get engaged. And I was like, oh my God, I'm not the only one. God bless her. That normalized really unhealthy behavior to me, right? That normalized something that was not good. And I, yeah, I knew he had the ring. He finally proposed. He also, the first time he was going to propose, I found out later was like in the way like explicitly things that I did not want like around people like you know big group that kind of thing and I and I I wouldn't go out to the park with him because it was hailing and I was like I'm not leaving we're at his parents house it was New Year's Eve I was like I'm not leaving and apparently he was going to propose he proposed three months later two weeks after that my sister's marriage breaks up um yeah so we had this horrible conversation we were having all these horrible conversations about having kids and oh my wedding was canceled because of COVID. I'm telling the story the most fractured way I ever have. My wedding was canceled because of COVID. We were supposed to get married May 2020. It was push, push, push, push, pushed. Finally, I was like, we'll just get married whenever. Let's just have a baby, you know? And we were already like medical, we were domestic partners, like, you know, all that stuff. And we were having these conversations about it. And he just, he kind of agreed, but it just, nothing felt right. And I. push the conversation one day because my dad was going to come and join me. I lived in Queens. My dad lives in Manhattan. My dad and my brother were going to come and drive out to Long Island to visit my mom at her house in Olivia for another reason that it's just, it's so unrelated. But I knew that my dad would be available to drive my car if I was crying. And I kind of felt like Not because of anything other than just gravity. If I don't get out now, I'm never getting out. If I don't say the things, if we don't say the things that need to be said tonight, I'm going to do the thing I did in October and sweep it under the rug again. Yeah. And I said, I just started crying. We were going to watch a show and I took out my contacts and the tears just started and I started crying. And he was like, what is it? And I told him we had to talk and he said, no, no, let's avoid it. And I said, no, we have to talk. And he said, I don't think I love you anymore. And I don't think we should have a baby. Actually, he said, I don't love you anymore and I don't think we should have a baby together. And it was the both and because it was obviously devastating and it made a lot of sense because that's how he'd been treating me for a long time. You know, he was a really thoughtful guy that would text his that would say to our friends, like, text me when you get home. But he didn't tell me to text me when I left a party without him, you know. And things like that where it was like You know, I remember that I had had a guy sort of threaten me on the street about two weeks before we broke up and we were talking with our neighbor, Lila. My ex said something to me like, yeah, you should really watch out for yourself. Lila, who I adore, was like, that's your job. You should watch out for her. And I was like, oh, yeah. And in every way, he should have watched out for me. And I remember sitting there at the table at our coffee table, which I never liked. I never liked any of our furniture because it was all compromise with him. It was all what he liked. And I took off my engagement ring and I just knew that my life was going to be beautiful in that moment. And then you spend the next four days crying because you can't believe that you don't know exactly what that person is doing. You know, for 10 years, I knew pretty much where he was all the time. Not like a creepy way, but in like a connected way. Right. And you don't know how they are. And it's unbelievable to It's just... somebody that you were going to build your life with is now, I mean, I remember when I turned off like location sharing with him and I, it's like, it was unbelievable. It was just, I was going to build my life with this person. We had been Jenny and this person for most of my adult life, my first apartment, all of that. It's, I, and I knew my life was going to be beautiful. And I just remember waking up in my bed at my mom's, you know, the next day or two days later. And being like, I can't breathe. Like, it feels like you can't breathe because you don't, you've just blown up your whole life.
- Speaker #2
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
Okay. I want to pause here for a second because I know some of you listening are going to relate to this next part. You've built a good life. You're showing up for everyone else. Kids, partner, work, friends. And you've done all the right things to take care of yourself. The journaling, the workouts, the books. And yet you're still tired. You're still anxious. Still feeling like you're running on fumes. If that's you, hear me now. You are not failing. You're just stuck in survival mode, and no amount of doing is going to work until your nervous system feels safe. That's exactly what you'll work on inside the Courageous Living group from Janice Holland. She's also known as the trauma teacher. She's a licensed psychotherapist and certified trauma model therapist who helps high-functioning women finally find relief. Because you don't need to do more. You need to feel safe enough to receive the life you've already built. Courageous Living Group is a 60-day nervous system reset for women who are done over functioning, people-pleasing, and holding it all together. This group reset includes eight live weekly group sessions that are recorded in case you can't attend live. You'll have lifetime access to the course portal and replays, weekly journal prompts and integration practices, somatic healing tools, and a private WhatsApp group chat for support. Click the link in the show notes below to get started.
- Speaker #2
And a part of you that like, whether it needs to not be there anymore or not, like it is a part of you, this person, you become so close to them, you build that connection, that relationship. I mean, it is a part of your heart that is separating from you. And it's just so hard. So when you guys were going through that experience, each of you, did you realize in the moment through it that you were experiencing these both feelings of bothness and the contradictions and the tension? Or was that something you realized after through lots of processing and talking about it? Because I think for me, and I always ask this because I'm like, one of the hardest things about going through the most difficult moments for me was not realizing the tension of the bothness. And then when I could realize it, it helped a little bit give me some language.
- Speaker #3
Yeah, I think it was very confusing for me. like coming off of a you know a divorce like to be totally honest you know we were We were living like a pretty marriage, but like it was still a marriage, right? Like up until that point. And so, you know, we spent every day together and we slept in the same bed and whatever.
- Speaker #0
And then to go from like that to separated, we still slept in the same bed for like a week after.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. We also weren't considering divorce. Like you. I mean, no, we weren't like.
- Speaker #0
No, until it happened. It wasn't something that either one of us really had brought up. Like I kind of like as a joke sometimes to bring it up. But and so I definitely it's funny because as you were asking the question, I was like, oh. I think I felt a lot of shame and like guilt for still, I didn't want to be married to this person, but it's still the person that you spent your life with. And so it's like, you know, you're still like, oh, I had children with this person and this person seen me at my worst and all these things. And so there's still like a, I want to use the word attraction, but I don't mean like a sexual or physical.
- Speaker #2
I know it's me.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Like a thing that you're like, and it was funny. Even when my ex moved away, he came back to visit maybe like six months after he moved away to see the kids. And it was very hard for me physically to not respond to him in the same way that I had been. With the husband, you're like touching his shoulder and his hip and, you know, tapping him on the whatever and the head or whatever. And, you know, it was just it was I had to like hold myself. back from like being the same person that I used to be. And I think that we don't talk, especially with divorce, although after this episode, now I'm going to go post about it because I think it's an interesting conversation. We don't talk enough about that. Like that's still, you're still connected to them, right? You may not like them. You may hate them. You may want them out of your life, but you're still connected to them. And even my ex and I talked on the phone a lot when he left, there was like still like flirting. There was it was still like an oh are entangled and I think that there's a lot of shame and guilt that wrap is wrapped up with that with like you know you you are separated from them but you still maybe have feelings for them or you don't want to be with them but it's still confusing well it takes it's not an on and off switch you know I and I think is really what it comes down to it's like it takes a while like I said those
- Speaker #1
those days of being like I don't know where he is I don't know what he's doing I don't know how he is. That's really hard. And we, again, different experiences, really different experiences. Like I left, we spent one night together, one more night together. And then I left the next morning and it was the only night that we've ever were together for 10 years that he actually like held me while we were falling asleep. And it was funny because I couldn't breathe. Like I was like crying so hard and I was like, I don't know how I'm going to do this. I don't, I don't know how I'm going to sleep. And he like, like hugged me a little tighter. He goes, eh, you'll be okay. And then he rolled away. And that was it. And, like, after, like, finally getting what I wanted, you know, this being held, he couldn't even sustain it for a couple of minutes. And I think for me, like, you had Eric there. Oh, sorry, that person there. For, like, so long. For these two months. You can label it. His name is, yeah, his name is public. Okay. Like, you had him there for so long. You kind of, and then things really deteriorated in those two months. And then they continued slowly deteriorating on the phone. Whereas I think for me, I moved out the next morning and I only, I think I've only seen him in person once since then. And I was to move out the rest of my stuff. And that was a complicated day for a lot of reasons. I'm sure, yeah. And it was complicated, but I think for me, I was very aware of the both and. I felt very aware of it because I just had this vision when I took off the ring. And I knew and I very quickly was like and I was like, OK, you know, you're in that baby mindset. So you're like, OK, where am I going to get this baby from? I got to start. I got to start like dating people and I got to start meeting people. And so you have that. And then you also have the my God, I can't believe what I've just done. Like we were a couple. I mean, we had wedding invitations out like all of it. You know, we had a whole social group and everything. And it's just I felt like I blew up everything in my life. So I just kept blowing up things. That's what I did.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. Well, and you know, as like both of you were talking, one thing that came to me that like very recently, and I've been divorced for almost 10 years now, but I was so entrenched with his family. And that's, I think, one thing people also don't talk about is the connections to then. I loved his family. Like his family was my family. And that was to me harder in a lot of ways because I knew I was like, bad, this is bad. I got to go. However. his family, like I didn't anticipate the fallout, which I know seems a little bit naive, right? But A lot of us have repaired things now, but like there was massive fallout for a while and it got, I don't want to say ugly. Ugly is not the right word with his family because it wasn't ugly with his family. It was with him, but it's still that I think we underestimate then the like connection and relationship with all the other people that come with it. Friends, family, whatever.
- Speaker #1
It's there. And like, you know, like Olivia was saying, there's all these stories that you are sort of the only like. jump rope holder to anymore like there's no one else holding the other end of the jump rope and and it comes with like that with people too and I there's friends of his that I like cared so deeply about and I think the thing is like like you said it takes a little time but usually you can find your way back to those people because it's not even for me it wasn't even about the fallout it was like oh my god you know such and such's little girl is going to school and I have nobody to share that with because my husband doesn't know who that is and my sister doesn't care who that is, you know. And so what I've done is I've just connected with those people directly to be like, oh, my God, your little girl's going to school. But it does take time. I mean, we saw it with our own parents divorce. Like our parents were together from when they were 15 and they got divorced when they were 36. Wow. You know, it took a little time, but like my mom has been invited to like all of the weddings that have happened since like 2010 on my dad's side, you know, like she's still invited. and by his...
- Speaker #0
his siblings because they grew up with her so like it takes time but it is a huge fallout and sometimes it's not repairable no i didn't get to say uh goodbye to my father-in-law he passed away and i was very close to him and uh i wasn't told he died and you know i don't talk about that publicly i mean here i am but you know my my in-laws completely cut me and the kids off And so and we didn't do anything wrong, obviously, you know, and I think that that's something people don't talk about at all is that, you know, divorce has such a ripple effect. I mean, I lost friends. I lost, you know, I was close to his family for sure. And, you know, and we just don't we don't talk about that as it is like a life quake. Right. That affects like every aspect of your life.
- Speaker #2
It really is. How would you say, I'm sure in so many ways this question could be answered, but what ways has this experience changed both of you? Like coming out the other side and still probably processing it, you know?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I mean, I'm six years out. Like I said, I separated in 2019. I was officially divorced in 2020. I'm just getting to the part where I'm like, I haven't dated. I haven't met anyone. literally haven't been with any man since then because I just couldn't The healing process was so huge for me. It was a complete rebuild of who I am and who I was. And so I feel like I'm just getting to that part of my life now, which is wonderful. And, you know, throwing myself into work has been amazing and parenting. I have my kids all the time. So, you know, it's been I think I am I'm the mother I always wanted to be. And they are the kids that they are always supposed to have been. without having to walk on eggshells or, you know, have somebody else kind of like in their life and mask that. And so, you know, I think we're, I feel like in a lot of ways, I just turned 40. Like I'm just at the beginning of my whole journey, you know, and like that was, I'm grateful for that time. I got my kids, you know, I learned a lot and I would not obviously be here doing what I love doing if it hadn't been for that.
- Speaker #2
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. I mean, I, again, very different story my sister and I have gone very different ways um I pretty quickly connected with a guy that I met like once at a museum in 2010 and it got intense really fast um and three months later I flew to Scotland to like see if it was like actually worked in person uh that we were pretty sure it was going to because we really liked each other like when we met in the museum for 20 minutes. I was like blushing. My mom said a lot around 10. And, you know, like there's definitely a lot of I think I did a lot of healing in my own apartment by myself. I think the fact that it was long distance really helped because he wasn't there all the time physically. Yeah. But I think, you know, there were so many things that I would look at my life for those 10 years and be like, I just think that somebody could be like this. I think that somebody could love me like this. Or I think that it's not that hard to actually just like tell your partner that you love them or that they're beautiful or that, you know, you're crazy about them or, you know, I'm a poet and I always wanted to have conversations about art and poetry and people and relationships. And my ex just like wasn't into any of that. And to find somebody that was like, do, you know, a real person, but also like. very effusive and very loving and an artist in his own right, I think I just was like, I knew I was right this whole time. Like I knew that this existed out there. And I am fundamentally changed by both my sister's divorce and my relationship ending. Like I was thinking about that today. I haven't even told you this, Livia, but like I was thinking when I was in the pool about how the direction of my life. was fundamentally changed by her standing up and getting divorced because I think that like in a lot of ways my relationship was in a non-toxic non-abusive way headed for the same direction that hers was which was being the primary parent being the one that was up being the one that was like doing all the things and I would have had a baby with him and I would have stayed longer and ultimately it was never going to work and her standing up made me go Because it was like her relationship, it wasn't great, but we thought he was a good guy. It was fine. And to look around and go, oh, this thing that we thought was like good enough, it's actually not good enough. And we shouldn't sit down for that. And it's also fundamentally changed me. My relationship with my nephews is different than it would be. And if she had stayed married and that's changed decisions that I've made. And, you know, I also think like, like I said, blowing up your whole life. flying to Scotland didn't seem like that big of a deal. I actually booked a ticket two days after I started talking to him to come visit him because I was like, I liked him so much. I wanted him to know I canceled it, but I was like, it just didn't sound like that crazy of an idea. Yeah. I was going to have to be in quarantine for 10 days. It was a really bad idea. And it was also like a $1,200 ticket, which is more than I've ever paid for tickets to come. But I think that it made me be like, okay, so like... I've already ended my people think I'm crazy already. They don't know what I why I did what I did. Let's just keep going. And and at least let me build the life that I want to build while I'm doing whatever the heck I want, you know, and I've done just that. So it both of our breakups like have fundamentally changed the shape of my life in ways that I'm sure are going to keep showing up.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. Did you know that Olivia like hearing her say that? Did you kind of have an idea of that before now.
- Speaker #1
I literally just had this thought this morning.
- Speaker #0
Not in that way. But I think, and on the flip side, the way that she found love and believed in love and her love story gives me hope. Because if she can walk into the wrong museum and 10 years later reconnect with him, then we all have somebody on this planet that's for us. So I think about, I think, you know, that inspires me on the days that I'm like, I wish I had somebody. You know, where the hell is he? I remember like she found her person and there's somebody out there.
- Speaker #1
You might be in Scotland is the bad news.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So, you know, I think, you know, we we inspire each other. And honestly, working together has taught us more about each other than anything. We always joke that like if you the next thing to getting married to your sibling is owning the company with them.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Not the next thing to getting married to your sibling because you can't get married to your sibling. You know what I mean? The closest relationship to being married is running away from somebody.
- Speaker #0
This is ultimately our relationship is I say things into the world and then she fixes them and edits them.
- Speaker #1
Fundamentally concerned about being misunderstood. I don't care. Not at all concerned about being misunderstood.
- Speaker #0
She's like, doesn't going viral affect you? Not even in the least. I don't think about it at all. And so, yeah, I think that we've learned so much about how to, I mean, Jenny said this before, so I think. that she'll agree that like she learned about loving me differently by loving her partner, you know, and I definitely learned about listening to people more, you know, because I have ADHD. I tend to cut people off. I'm very quick thinking. And she has very kindly said to me a couple times, like, let me finish, like, let me speak, let me get this out. And that's ultimately going to help my next relationship. Right. And so we learn we learn a lot from each other in that way.
- Speaker #2
Yeah, it's so beautiful. And it's just, I think. Getting to see you all talk and interact and share your stories and how, you know, you've impacted each other in these just wonderful and beautiful ways. I just I love it.
- Speaker #0
It's great. Thank you. Thank you.
- Speaker #1
It's a special thing.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. As we wrap up, one thing I kind of want to ask before the very end is what would you say to somebody out there who might be going through this experience or might be questioning? Is this time? Is this the time to end things? What would you say to them?
- Speaker #0
I would say... reach out to us honestly yeah uh we have so much we have so much support and i talk to people who are considering divorce or breakups um i also talk to a lot of people who who make calls with me who are not the person going through the breakup but maybe it's the sister or the parent who really just want to help them and want resources But we have so many free resources. We have budget guides. We have scripts. We have two free e-books.
- Speaker #1
One of the books is what to consider when you're considering divorce. Yeah. Which I think is a really important one.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And we really go through everything. And so, like, we built this platform so people can use it. Like, DM us. Like, you know, reach out because it can be so scary. But I want to reiterate that I get so many DMs a day from people going through this. And so you're not the only one. um you're not the first one and you know just say like hey do you have resources in this or support or can i you know you can click the link in my bio and book a call with me and i will be there on zoom and so um but besides that i would also say like it does get better it absolutely does get better but you have to you have to heal you have to slow down and take care of yourself and i i would say this is my what i always say is it doesn't have to be bad for it not to be good like you're allowed to just be like
- Speaker #1
This isn't the relationship for me. And I think there's a lot of shame around that. I think it's like, oh, so you're going to end a relationship just because he doesn't do da-da-da-da-da. It's like, yeah, by the way, if somebody is willing to end a relationship over that, that probably is a relationship that should end, you know, or go to therapy. Like there's a lot of options, but you do not have to stay in a place that doesn't feel safe to you, that doesn't feel happy to you, where you're not celebrated. Because I bet there's somebody out there that is going to be so excited. that you are available and on the market. It might take a little time. You might have to try to find them. But, you know, if I think I tweeted this morning, like if a guy doesn't kiss your head in the morning, like kiss your forehead and like love you, like and he just says that's not something he remembers to do. OK, fine. Go find somebody that does like if that's what you want. You can totally just go find a love that feels up to your level.
- Speaker #2
Well, thank you both so much. I think this is just a topic that's very dear to my heart. And I think this is just so impactful what you're doing. And before we go, I do want to ask, I ask everybody, it's a little segment called Ridiculous or Relatable, but can you share something that you do that is completely ridiculous, but to some might be a little bit relatable and does not have to be related to like relationships or anything like that?
- Speaker #0
I love to make up songs. So I'm constantly making up songs. I love that. Especially with my kids, like ridiculous songs. I will even sing to my bed at night and tell it how much I love my bed. So I do. I love your bed. I do. I love my bed. So I just make up songs for everything. And it's fun. It's like it's a little whimsy in my life.
- Speaker #2
I love that so much.
- Speaker #1
Mine is whimsy related, too. I laugh at myself a lot. I have a lot of like I laugh out loud at myself a lot when things go wrong, mostly like today I was like pulling out a pan from the cabinet and like all the pans fell out. And I just like stood there and I just like, that's funny. Like that's humorous. And I also have a lot of inside jokes with myself. Just like, and I think that goes to it too of like, sometimes you like, you have an inside joke with somebody and then they leave your life. You don't have to lose that inside joke. And there's a lot of shows that I've watched by myself and nobody else cares to watch with me. And I have a lot of inside jokes with myself. So I'm kind of always, I sometimes think about my husband's experience of me of like, I'm like singing a song down the hallway and then I'm like trying to repeat something to myself to remember not to forget it. And then I'm laughing. I'm like, he must just, he just, it sounds like I'm having a great time in the other room by myself all the time.
- Speaker #2
I definitely talk to myself too. And I'll just, I'll kind of like talk and then just stop mid-sentence all the time. And people are like, are you, are you still talking? I'm like, oh, I didn't finish that out loud. Okay. Just talking to myself. Yeah. Yeah. Thank y'all so much for just being vulnerable and I think consistently willing to share your story and to help others kind of work through some of the probably hardest moments of their lives. So. Thank you.
- Speaker #0
Thanks for having us, Nikki.
- Speaker #3
Before we go, I want to give a huge thank you to our guests, Olivia and Jenny, for being here with us today. They found a way to use their own experiences and create the world's first registry and support platform for starting over, filling a gap that they once felt so deeply themselves. From curated household bundles to vetted experts like lawyers, therapists, organizers, they've built a resource that many of us, including myself, wish that we had had during our toughest transitions. If you would like to explore what they offer for yourself, or for someone else, whether that's creating your own registry, accessing free downloadable guides, or reaching out to trusted professionals, visit freshstartsregistry.com. You can also find them on Instagram at freshstartsregistry. I will link both of these below in the show notes. If this episode resonated with you, it would mean the world to me if you could support the show and help it grow. First, please take a moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts, because your words help new listeners to find us. Second, share the episode with someone who might need it because that's how this community grows through real people, real stories, and honest conversations shared from one person to another. Finally, make sure you follow the show so you never miss an episode. Just tap the little plus sign or follow button on the main show page. These really are the most impactful things that you can do for the podcast. So thank you again for listening. And this week, take some time to recognize what in your life is full of bothness. And remember, it's okay to feel all the things, because so many times in life, it isn't either or. It's both.
