- Speaker #0
I think in most things in life, just try to figure out why you are the way that you are, because regardless of if it fits into what society tells you is the correct way to live, you should be aware of why you react to things the way that you react. Know your inner child, you know, because that's usually why you react to things the way that you do. And like, regardless of what society tells you, regardless of what society expects of you, knowing why you are the way you are is a massive tool. And it's not to say you should ever justify who you are, but just be aware of who you are. I think self-awareness is always like... the most important thing because you might not be able to change who you are but you should at least know who you are to some extent yeah because how do you know what to change no you have to triage you have to do a lot of triaging before you can actually uh start to take movements or change your momentum and inertia welcome
- Speaker #1
to it's both the podcast where we explore the messy beautiful contradictions of being human I'm your host, Nikki P, and each week I sit down with real people navigating life's complexities. Those moments when life isn't just one thing,
- Speaker #2
it's so many.
- Speaker #1
And this week I sit down with my friend Devin to talk about themes around masculinity, parenting, and personal identity. Devin shares his experience as a stay-at-home dad, and we talk about this ever-evolving role of fathers in modern society. He also talks about the complexities of navigating workplace expectations around men. personal values, and the challenges of assertiveness versus aggression. And he shares his experiences and insights around navigating identity, the importance of self-awareness, and even the concept of the shadow self. So let's jump in.
- Speaker #2
So good to have you here. And I feel so lucky that you have your own podcast, which we'll talk about a little bit, but I get to have you on my podcast, which is exciting.
- Speaker #0
I know. How do you feel about nasally NPR voices? Because that's what you'll have to listen to a lot whenever you edit this one. Perfect.
- Speaker #2
Great. I mean, you know, you know, your strengths, you know what you are. I love it.
- Speaker #0
That's true. I have a voice made for radio. I don't know.
- Speaker #2
Well, we are going to talk about masculinity today.
- Speaker #0
Yes.
- Speaker #2
Which, you know, I know very little about. So I'm excited to hear from you. But before we jump in, I wish you would tell everybody a little bit about who you are. Like, who is Devin?
- Speaker #0
Sure. Yeah. So I am Devin. I have three kids. I have a nine-year-old, seven-year-old, and a three-year-old. I'm a stay-at-home dad. I've been a stay-at-home dad since like February of 2019, so a while now. I do co-host, produce, do all the stuff for a podcast called the Imperfect Dads podcast. It was originally the Nashville Dads podcast. I just recently moved out to Colorado or Denver suburbs. And whenever we did that, it felt weird to still have the name the Nashville Dads, even though one of us They didn't live there anymore. So in my opinion, the idea or hope of that podcast is that I genuinely believe dads really care about their families and they and how they normally show that they love their families is by working, creating financial stability and doing all of that. But they normally don't get asked directly like, hey, tell me some stories about your kids lives. And once you open up that space for them, I feel like dads are like you. It's almost hard to get them to stop talking. But I think culturally, societally. the concept for a man is to go to work, come home, drink a beer and fall asleep in a chair while your kids annoy you in front of you. And I'm like, that's not that's maybe at one point in time. That's how dads were. But like every dad I know cares so much more about that. I feel like when I go to field trips, I am not so much the dad at the field trip, but I'm a dad at the field trip. And that's feels very different than what I remember from my childhood growing up.
- Speaker #2
Yeah, I was gonna say the same thing. I don't remember any dads on any field trips. ever.
- Speaker #0
you had like donuts for dads or, you know, some event like that. That was like the only time your dad would step into the school.
- Speaker #2
When it was like very specifically required and asked for the dads. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, definitely. And like, I don't know, like it's a, we all rise to whatever ceiling is set in front of us. So if you look at a man and you say, you don't need to be here for this, they don't show up. So if you, if you, I guess the way I've figured out how to put it that I think is good is whenever you show someone that their love and their care is welcomed here and it makes a difference. You can see what it like. Like their energy changes for it. So if I can somehow figure out how to communicate to dads that there's how they love their family is good and it's good for them to show that in more ways than just working a lot, then my hope is that it creates more emotional bonds and more emotional strength and makes dads not feel alone as much.
- Speaker #2
Yeah, I love that. And the podcast is great.
- Speaker #0
Thanks. Have you listened to any episodes of it?
- Speaker #2
Actually have.
- Speaker #0
But my gosh,
- Speaker #2
I know. But to be fair, I don't listen. I think I was saying this a little bit earlier. There is not one. podcast that I listen to that's consistent. Yeah. Like I pop in and out. Oh,
- Speaker #0
sure.
- Speaker #2
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
every podcast and i so yeah that's just kind of and yet i'm starting a podcast so yeah you know that that makes sense right i mean from what i've found if i over analyze stats it's all guest based so if you're lucky enough you get a guest that people know then you're like oh a lot of people listen to this one and you're like cool this one connected the next one who knows just doing what i can to represent stories and represent people well and listeners happen if they happen so
- Speaker #2
So you know, that's a little bit about you. Tell me a little bit more, just like the things you like, little quirks about you, a little bit about your personality.
- Speaker #0
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Deeper stuff. Yeah. I, um, if you want to do an Enneagram speak, I am an Enneagram four, um, with a very strong five wing. Um, and how that, how I trust my creativeness the most is actually in cooking and in baking. So if you ask me to sit down and write a song, I'll be like, no, I'm not going to do that. But if you're like, hey, can you bake me a pie? I'll be like, sure. Do you want like five? And I'll make them like the most unique tasting and most delicious thing you've ever had in your life. I listen to a lot of audio books. I am an extreme music nerd, studied music business with an emphasis in production. So I have a business degree, but I spent all my time hanging out in recording studios. Prefer mountains to beaches, hence the move to Colorado. What else? Youngest of three.
- Speaker #2
I have a lot of- I didn't know that.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Did you think I was an only child? Yeah.
- Speaker #2
How did I not know this?
- Speaker #0
Why would we discuss my siblings? You know? I don't know.
- Speaker #2
Well, we've talked about Heather, your wife's siblings. Yeah. I don't know.
- Speaker #0
Yep. No, I have a sister who lives in Nashville still, and my brother lives in, just moved to Manhattan. So yeah.
- Speaker #2
Okay.
- Speaker #0
Yep. Wow. I shared a room with my older brother for most of my upbringing. He's six years older than me. And that's where I have my taste in music is because- Whatever he put on the CD player is what I listened to. So, you know, being in third grade and listening to like Radiohead, Violent Femmes and Sublime instead of NSYNC and Backstreet Boys was most of my childhood.
- Speaker #2
Love it. So, okay. Talk to me a little bit about when we were setting up this podcast, we were talking about a subject and we kind of got to the idea of masculinity. I just want you to start sharing, like, tell me a little bit about your story. Like, why did this come up for you? What is masculinity for you? And how does that show up?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, of course. Now, I think if I think of something where there's like the normal and what's expected of you and then there's you and I'm trying to figure out who I am and what that is and how do I balance all of this? I do think masculinity is definitely that because like I am whenever I think of a typical definition of masculinity, it's more like the like the alpha male, you know, guy who comes in, takes charge, knows what he wants, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, aggressive. And I walk into a room and I'm like, what's the vibe? Like, who's here? Who can I talk to? What's going on? Like, I don't like, and that's just always been who I am. And like, that's definitely gotten me like, not in trouble, but like working at jobs. I think most people I am, I'm not stupid, I'm intelligent. So people like, oh, he's smart, he's going to take charge here. And I'm walking, I'm like, what's everyone else want to do this figure this out together, as opposed to like, what is considered leadership and masculinity is always fascinating to me. because I feel like people, if someone comes in and goes, this is how we're doing it. And this is the right way to do it. People are like, that's a strong leader. And I'm like, or he's an asshole. Like, which one is it? He's like, you didn't ask me my opinion. Did he ask you your opinion? No, he's just, he knows based off of his previous experience, this works. So he's going to come in and demand, this is what we do. So like, I've never done well with that energy. I've never gotten fired because of it, but like, it's definitely like, I remember working at a job in which I did customer service. And I would always slouch in the chair, but I would answer like every phone call, every email, I'd take care of every order. And the owner who was more alpha male energy was like, why is he slouching in his chair? And my manager would have to be like, well, he's doing everything you like. He's doing everything you ask politely and our customers love him. It was like, well, he's not, but he's not doing this one thing the way I want him to.
- Speaker #2
He's not sitting how I want him to sit.
- Speaker #0
He's not sitting up straight and proper like this. He's doing this. So like, I don't know. Like, it's this weird. I have more. The word passive has such a negative connotation to it, but I have more just like, let's see what happens energy, which is not, if you think of a typical masculine person, I don't think passive is like a word you'd describe them as.
- Speaker #2
Yeah, yeah, that's fair. Well, it's interesting that you use that example with leadership because like coming from the nonprofit space, you know, most of the CEOs are men. And however, I've seen that change in the last like five, six years a lot, especially in Nashville. And one of the nonprofit that I work at, one of our last or our last CEO was so quiet and so soft spoken. You could never hear him.
- Speaker #0
Seriously?
- Speaker #2
Yeah. Never. Like we'd have to give him a microphone in a small meeting room. And it was so different like from the CEO prior to him. At first, people would come in with these assumptions and be like, who is this guy? Like how on earth is this the CEO? And then he would speak with such kindness and like warmth and care. And he just like moved you. And you were like, that's a great leader. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #2
But it took people a while, even in a nonprofit space, to be like. yeah, great leadership isn't just coming in and inserting your opinions on everybody else.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And it's like, I mean, I think that also, like, I think it's hard or very difficult. I would never, leading a company is not something I would want to do because you're constantly faced with very difficult decisions and you have to create the path and go forward. And then you're asking people to follow you. And like, I mean, that even applies to parenting is like, you're like, Hey, we're going to do this, this move across the country. And your kids are like, is this a good idea? We hope it's a good idea so like You're trying, I think typical masculinity, kindness isn't something I usually associate with it. You know, it's more of like a fallen line or else type of mentality, which just makes me even feel deeply uncomfortable to say out loud. And that's just never, if, if the only way you can move forward is if you remove the ability to have a conversation about it as you do it. I don't, I can't agree with that at all. That's so, that feels so inherently wrong to me.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. Well, you've talked about what others' perception of like the typical masculinity is like, when did this start to come like to a head for you? Or when did you start to realize like, oh, hey, I don't align with like that version of masculinity?
- Speaker #0
I mean, it's pretty much, I mean, realistically, it's been my entire life to some extent. You know, I can't think of a time in which I fit in with like the normal definition of masculinity. I think definitely once getting married is whenever I started to hit my head against it the most. Heather, my wife, and I will always talk about the best thing we did for premarital counseling was we had to go through our family structures. And what and because that naturally would kind of be a roadmap for what we anticipated. So like for Heather's family, a lot of them were all stay at home moms who gave up on their career to take care of their family. On my side of the family, it was mostly women who, after having kids or in their 20s or 30s, went back to college and got an education and went back and like got. bigger jobs so to me i was like if we get married you'll probably want to be career focused and like this will be fine and she was used to like oh i'm you probably want me to stay home and figure out all the home stuff and i'm like not really like you're good um and like i think in general most church structures are very much like hey you're the man you need to be leading and you need to be providing and the more we got into our careers the more like heather's just better at jobs she's better at career than I am. It's just like, it's just the reality. She was able to find jobs in which she could advance and financially advance as well. And I would get to like middle management level and not get not like rise above that. So like, I mean, me becoming a stay at home dad was definitely a huge shift or redefining of like, hey, as a man, I assume I'm supposed to be the one who figures out how to provide financially for the family. And the reality is, is that like, you just change your definition, like the how you how you provide for your family is actually case by case. So like me providing for the family now is to be around, be emotionally and mentally available as much as I can be and just provide basic health stuff. Like, do we have snacks? Do we have food? Like, what is it like the Laszlo's hierarchy of needs? Like just get that base level as strong as you can is what I'm like, oh, this is where I'm best to be providing for my family. It's not to go out there and make, I mean, I think it'd be, if I could ever find a job that, you know, made six figures was all this stuff, that'd be awesome. But it hasn't been, it hasn't worked out that way. So. I think you definitely reach a point in your life in which you just have to look at yourself and be like, hey, this is who you think you're supposed to be. And actually, it's not who you are. So why do you keep constantly running towards something you aren't able to become because you think it's what's expected of you?
- Speaker #2
Yeah, yeah. And do you think like thinking back to childhood? I mean, I'm assuming I could be wrong here, but like, did this pop up as you were a kid and a teenager and like? in those years where I would imagine like masculinity and expectations around that was very specific, especially in, I don't know, the nineties,
- Speaker #0
2000s. Yep. Early aughts. Yeah. No. And also like, just to go back to more or less me sharing a room with my older brother, I, so I have a May birthday. So for my class, I was always one of the older kids, not one of the younger kids. That's how it worked out. And all the stuff I liked was about six years older than everyone else that I was around. So I've always been. slightly not the same as my peer group to some extent, also might lead into the whole being an Enneagram 4 thing. So like, yeah, whenever I was in like high school, I'd be listening to like all these bands that were different than what everyone else was listening to. Like I would always be the one being like, have you heard this band to all my friends and making them come along with me for it? So like I'm used to getting obsessed with something and people looking at me and being like, what are you talking about? What is this? And then the people who know about it are usually five or six years older than me. So like, yeah, growing up like in a I've always been more like analytical and ethereal inside my own head. So whenever I'm around other boys and they're like, let's go play basketball. I'm like, but what about what's like the meaning of it? Is time a flat circle? And it's like and then kids are like, why are you what are you talking about? And I'm like, oh, sorry. No, I'm supposed to be liking music. I'm supposed to be like shooting basketball. You're right now. You're right. You're right. You're right. You're right.
- Speaker #2
You're right. So. OK, so were you kind of like an emo kid? Was that a rough day? Yeah. OK. Well,
- Speaker #0
I mean, OK, so this is OK. If you want to get super into this, whenever you say emo, are you thinking like... My Chemical Romance, Fall Out Boy, and all the stuff that was on like TRL and all of that?
- Speaker #2
No.
- Speaker #0
Because I didn't wear eyeliner. I didn't have like all that stuff. Okay, cool.
- Speaker #2
I didn't have that experience either. Like a lot of, I think the people that I was around, a lot of my friends were very similar to you that were boys and were emo. And I would say, More in touch with emotions.
- Speaker #0
Yes. Then yes,
- Speaker #2
yes. But no, no eyeliner, no nothing like that. Okay, cool.
- Speaker #0
Because there's like when people say emo, I think they think My Chemical Romance on Fall Out Boy, which is like the black eyeliner and all that stuff. And I'm like, no, I more listen to a lot of folk music that was sad and somber. Like I started listening to Bright Eyes like in sixth and seventh grade.
- Speaker #2
Yeah, yeah.
- Speaker #0
So like, yeah, a lot of their songs are butting up against religion and why do we exist to some extent. so So yeah,
- Speaker #2
a lot of existential questions there.
- Speaker #0
Pretty much. And like literally, I remember my brother, whenever I was in like third grade, because he would have been like about to intern in high school, being like, yeah, but like, what if God isn't real? Like, what if all of this isn't actually a real thing? And that's what I started to process is like, why do we exist at all in general, whenever I was in like third or fourth grade? So more bigger thinking, whatever. Which then leads to like, I think whenever you are questioning constantly why you exist, in my opinion, it does make you more like It made me more passive because I'm like, well, if nothing matters, then why would I do anything at all? So very nihilistic.
- Speaker #2
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. It was a nihilistic fifth grader. You weren't. Come on.
- Speaker #2
No, no. I was other end of the spectrum, heavily like youth group. Yeah. You don't need to go there.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I did youth group stuff, too. But the entire time I was like, is this all bullshit? Which is great. You know.
- Speaker #2
No, I was very in it. Yeah. Were you?
- Speaker #0
Okay.
- Speaker #2
So did that. Because we're not only talking about masculinity, it seems like. Masculinity is a part of this. And then there's just your personality as well in that. But in thinking about masculinity specifically, especially in those teenage years, puberty years, how did that affect relationships? I don't want to say romantic because you're a teenager necessarily, but romantic or friendships, even with other boys at the time or your family. Did any of that get affected?
- Speaker #0
I feel like I mostly just found other people who like the same sad music as me and were in like a like I was friends with like the band kits, not like the jocks or anything like that. I was actually talking to a guy the other day about how it feels funny whenever you're like 17 or 16. You don't think it's allowed to be someone who likes basketball and likes to play sad songs on guitar. But now here I'm at 37 and I'm like, I watch soccer all the time. I watch basketball. Like I'm very into sports and playing sad songs on guitar. But whenever I was in high school, I was like, no, no, no, that's the jocks world. That's different than mine. And it's like, it's both.
- Speaker #2
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
You can be both. No, I think I just more like, because I played soccer in my senior year of high school. And yeah, I was drastically different than the guys who were better at soccer and more aggressive minded because I was just like, I'm going to be here and I'll kick the ball if it comes near me. You know, like, so I'm not, I think you can enter into a lot of spaces where it's not that like you being different is. bad or goes against something, but it's just very obvious that you're different. So like me being a stay-at-home dad, I never go to like a story time and the mom's looking at me and go, why are you here? But like, we all know I'm one of the only dads in the room, you know?
- Speaker #2
Yeah. And I'm assuming you haven't always been comfortable with like that difference. Ow. Right?
- Speaker #0
No, no, no. Like I'll go back to like church scenario, like a church scenario, whenever you're like getting married and you're starting out young and everything. And the church leader is like, how are you going to to be the man of your house. And you're like, what the? what does that mean? And then you're like, but how are you defining that? Are you saying, how do I tell my wife what to do? No, I always felt against what people expected of me in church culture and in job scenarios, because I would be like, but that's not how I think this should go. And I feel like then people are like, this is the right way to do it. And I'm like, no, that's just your opinion of how to do it. And that's why I wasn't very good at careers. people be like this is how it should be done i'm like actually my vantage point is different they're like well that's not what i want and i'm like but it's not what let's if you're asking me what would i do it's nothing that you decided to do and to say that not condescendingly i don't know how to i was gonna well and that was the question that came up as you were saying that is like how does this so let's take work for example yeah let's say you're back in the work place at one of the jobs that you had and you had conflict or
- Speaker #2
you had somebody say you need to do it this way or I think you should do it this way. And the rub. comes right you're like no how do you handle that situation especially considering that you know i think traditional in quotes masculinity would have been aggressive and been like no this is blah blah blah like how's your response and how is that different passive and people pleasing so
- Speaker #0
it'd be more like well you pay my paycheck and this is what you want so regardless of if i agree with it or not i would like to still make money that's why i have this job like I worked at a dentist's office and they had a very distinct script if a new patient called of what they wanted you to say and a flow and everything. And if you deviated from that, you would get in trouble. Like they would listen to your phone calls and stuff. And I would consistently deviate because their thought process was if someone's calling with an issue, get them in the door because that's the best way to help them. And I'd be more like, whoa, that's happening to you? Are you okay? Like, you know, I'd be more, I would lead more with empathy on the phone call, which would then leave me on the phone call longer. So if other calls came in, like. I understand their reasoning. Get on the phone, get them scheduled, get them in. You're good. But like in my mind, I was always like, no, this person is calling with a horrible toothache. I want to make, I'm going to do everything I can to make sure they know they're taken care of. They'll be taken care of. And so like, no, I got in trouble all the time for that because they would be like, just follow the script. And I'm like, but I don't agree with your script. Okay. Well, you're going to keep getting in trouble. Cool. I will learn how to quiet what I think is right in this scenario because I would rather not get fired because that creates more problems than me, quote unquote, being right.
- Speaker #2
So essentially, it was like, okay, you're going to say something in a as non condescending of a way as possible. And then if there was pushback, again, you would just kind of go, okay,
- Speaker #0
I'll be better next time. I'll be better next time. I'm sorry about that. Hey, here's why I did it. Here's my reasoning. But you're right. If that's what you want. I understand that I will I will do better to do that next.
- Speaker #2
It's also a side note crazy that like a dentist cares that like,
- Speaker #0
yeah, well, they hired a marketing team and the entire marketing team's job was to get new patients on the door. So they had an entire they paid someone to overanalyze every phone call so i i get the flow i understand all of it but yeah so you know i mean i feel like moments like that would happen and what you'd be like hey why did you do this this way and i'm like i mean it's not even just masculinity because it's personality as well to be like well it's what i thought was the best way to do it and then yeah it is weird because like if someone's like i don't like how you did that the more masculine way be like well this is how i'm gonna do it and i'm more inclined to be like all right let's work this out this compromise We'll figure something out together. And also like, I don't like whenever I have to dig my heels in because then I don't, I don't like who I am whenever, if I dip into what I would consider to be alpha male characteristics, I don't, I don't like that about myself. I don't like whenever I walk into a room and I'm like, I'm going to dominate what I want needs to happen or else. Then I'm like, ah, I don't, I don't like getting into that mindset because I think I'm ignoring everyone else's needs in the room besides my own. And I'm like, I don't, I don't like that. I can do that. I just really, I'm not, I'm not a fan of this. It's like, I guess through therapy, I, you either like aggressive, you're passive or you're like, it's like, how do you make it a win-win basically? Or assertive, assertive, that's the word. So I'd rather be assertive in which I know what I want and then communicate it properly. But it's easier to either think I should be aggressive or passive in the, in the moment.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. That's so interesting as you're saying that, because, you know, so are there moments, or I'm assuming there are moments where you have felt like you had to be that sort of alpha male, you felt kind of pushed in a corner to that, like, is that very often? Or is that very rare, like instances where it's pretty rare,
- Speaker #0
it's not very common. And in those moments, I don't, I hate it. Because I'd rather like in my mind, I'm just like, why? Why do we have to get here? Like, this all could have been avoided, couldn't have, like, I don't, I like to release pressure valves as they're happening, as opposed to the big fight and the big moment, if I if I possibly can this little idealistic as well. But like, yeah, no, like I remember, I don't like whenever, if I have to sit you down and be like, hey, do you know that this hurt my feelings when you did this? I feel my body feels tense. I hate that entire moment. I hate everything about that. So yeah, I guess in a lot of moments end up being more passive and being like, as for me to figure out on my own, as opposed to like confrontational because confrontation, I have to remind myself is a good thing for relationships. Like to actually ever can. confrontational moment is like is actually something that can lead to growth in the relationship and i'm like but that's a risk and that's vulnerability and i don't want to take that so yeah or something i don't yeah i mean 100 i think bennett and i would
- Speaker #2
both agree with that. Like we both struggle with that piece, which is not a good, like we've had to work through the combo of that because usually you've got somebody who's like willing to push into it a little bit. And I think I've defaulted to that now, but both of us tend to be like, oh, we don't, we don't want to like confront the thing, right? We're just going to deal with it on our own. And we, so we've been also working through that both as well. Like, no, you need some. confrontation. Like conflict can be good. Conflict is not bad. It's how you handle that.
- Speaker #0
Pretty much. Yep. And it's, I think that's where like learning about communication styles of being like assertive, meaning learning, knowing what you want to say in a situation and sticking to it, not backing down. I hate that wording, but like being like, okay, this is how I feel about the subject. And this is how I feel, but not coming about it. But I guess whenever you're assertive, it's almost like, here are my needs. Here are your needs. How do we meet them together? as opposed to
- Speaker #2
my need to be met and yours can't which is somehow relationships end up uh that's the power dynamic of them and i like the word one word that i figured out with my therapist is granted like instead of i'm sticking my ground we're gonna like i'm not backing down it's like no i'm i'm grounded and like yeah i'm not you can't move me from this because it's a need of mine now i can move in all the other ways to meet your needs but like i can't this is a need yeah but how do we meet in the middle yeah
- Speaker #0
it's real fun um yeah it's i i've found that either i'm prone to pacific or being passive more than anything because i just assume i mean yeah that i'm just supposed to if something makes me uncomfortable i'm supposed to figure it out on my own to some extent you know for whatever reason i don't think that's a healthy way to do it but like it's i i've worked a lot of um whenever i worked as always like let me rethink this a lot of what my position in something has been has always been reactive so like working customer service jobs here's the catalyst here's the complaint. You go figure it out. You're at home with kids. Here's what the kids did. You have to figure out how to help them out, how to help them regularly and everything. So like in most of my modes, I am in more of a like ready to respond as opposed to what do I think needs to happen? Like instead of like dominating the energy saying what should happen next besides like plans during the day, because I'll make this go to the zoo, you know, stuff like that. But like in most frameworks, I expect that I should be reacting to something to help it out, you know,
- Speaker #2
rather than setting the course.
- Speaker #0
Correct.
- Speaker #2
Well, one thing you said earlier that I am now thinking about when you and I don't remember how you worded it, but you said something like, you know, I try to release the pressure along the way as opposed to like letting it all out at once. So talk a little bit about that, because I think, you know, masculinity or not, but I think you see this more with men or maybe historically just because of the expectation or the acceptance of like anger being OK to come out in a. explosive way or a laugh way right yeah um and also but though the expectation with that is that it's probably not okay for men to release it slowly along the way because that shows up in other ways like probably sadness or um other feelings of hurt or grief or whatever that aren't as acceptable so how have you learned over the years to let off the steam as you go as opposed to like that big explosion yeah i think it's just
- Speaker #0
trying to be more aware of what I can control in a situation and what I cannot, which comes with its own sets of like good and bad. Cause I usually am prone to take responsibility for things that I'm not actually responsible for, but it's just that inner work of being like, all right, this really pissed me off. Cool. Why did it piss you off? How much of that are you responsible for? And how much of that is just life? Cause I think that happens in life in which things happen. You're like, I really didn't like that this happened. So what could have gone differently? And it's like, that's just life sometimes. Sometimes stuff doesn't happen the way you want it to. And if you're assuming that you could, that your actions would have moved in a different direction, that's not always the case. So I think it's just trying to be honest about situations and what role did I play in it? What role could have been different about it? And like, what actions am I actually responsible to them? As opposed to assuming this is all yours to fix. This is, or this is all broken because of you, which very much a younger version of myself would have been like, hey, this is all broken because of what you did. And as an older person, I'm like, actually, no, there's a lot of other factors. Like to some extent, not as harsh as it sounds like you're not that important. Like there's so many other things that factor into it. If you think this went wrong because of just you, most situations, that's not the case. There are some situations. Yeah, you totally messed it up. Like you didn't call and schedule something and now you can't go to it. That's that's totally on you. But like, I think just trying to be more aware of how many things play a part in it allows me to not be as angry, you know? to be more like, hey, this is more than just you. So like, I think whenever I think something, it rests solely on me. And it's only because of me that something happened or didn't happen. Then I'm more prone to bigger reactions, bigger like, why did this happen? But if I can stop and think and be like, hey, this is actually, there's a lot of factors in this. Then I'm usually a little bit kinder, more accepting. Chill about it.
- Speaker #1
So if I heard you right, when you think it's mostly your fault before you start to break it down, that's when you have the bigger reaction.
- Speaker #0
I think so. Yeah, yeah. Which you can also do Enneagram speak there as a four. I assume I'm naturally broken in everything I do. So my starting point is like, this is broken because of you and you are broken. And then it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. There's not a lot of truth in that. Calm it down. So like it's, I think it's very helpful to be aware of what your gut reaction is and respect it. but that doesn't necessarily define where your actions are going forward. So if you start in a place of like, hey, I think I'm broken and I'm going to break everything. It's like, no, you're not like you're fine. You can admit that's your initial reaction. Now take a breath and figure out what else you can do.
- Speaker #1
And that's so insightful and self-aware because I feel like what you're probably talking about is it's like the shame and the guilt, which honestly, that's if we're all pretty honest, that's usually the biggest reactions we all have is anything that's creating that. feeling of guilt, shame, embarrassment, whatever it might be for you. Yep.
- Speaker #0
Yep. How do you, if you're on a shame spiral, how do you stop the spiral? Um, and it is possible to, uh,
- Speaker #1
take a breath.
- Speaker #0
I mean, let it go. I don't know, Elsa. Um, let's see. Uh, it's, I think whenever you're ashamed spiraling, it's because you aren't, I'm not meaning to reference frozen. Um,
- Speaker #1
please do. I love it.
- Speaker #0
But you are legitimately looking for what your next step is. What is the next right? What is the next thing you can actually do? And I think that's where most of people's shame or mine and shame spiraling comes from is you're like, oh my God, I don't know what the next step is. I don't know what my next move can be. So then you spiral and you get deeper and deeper and deeper until you figure out how you can start climbing out of the hole. And there's not like a answer that goes across the board for how you get out of a shame spiral. But I think what you're looking for is what's the next action step I can take to counteract this energy. And that's why you spiral is because you can't find it yet. And you're spinning out until you find a step that you think can actually help you out.
- Speaker #1
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- Speaker #0
Yeah. I think if I think back to working stuff that made me genuinely mad would be like, I am a very calm personality. So people consistently wonder what I'm doing or if I care. So like there's a moment whenever I worked at a TV station, I was a sales coordinator, which means people go out and sell ad time. You have to input into a system so I can blah, blah, blah. So I was doing that job. I did local sales. The person was the national sales coordinator was out that day. And I was filling out the front desk because the employee was a front desk person. was going through chemo. So I was helping out on all of that. So I was answering phone calls, welcoming guests, inputting orders, doing all this stuff. And someone was like, you don't seem like you're that busy out there. And I'm like, all right. So I'm doing like three jobs out here at like 23, 24 and like not complaining. So like, if you want to question that I'm working and that I care, like, I don't, I don't know how to respond kindly in that moment. And then I'm like, why, why can't you figure out a communicate that nicely? I'm like, cause it's offensive that they said that I'm not doing anything else. Mm hmm. So I've run into that a lot of like, I'm doing stuff like, I'm always like, do I have to complain? Like, if I complain more about stuff that I know I can do? Does that make people like, what? Why would I need to do that? And that makes me genuinely mad because I'm like, no, just like know that I'm you asked me to do something. I'm doing it. Just give me that respect. So that doesn't like, make me spiral. But that does get a big like, emotion inside of me. That's like, how dare you type of moment, you know, and then after like, calm it down figure out how to communicate it but like yeah those are that's it if you're asking what's a moment that causes an immediate big reaction inside of me that stuff if you're like what are you even doing here i'd be like like questioning your okay so whether it be work or not that i would ever see how they're doing this but a partner or somebody close to you like or
- Speaker #1
even just not that they're actually questioning you but like you feel like they're questioning whatever's happening yeah and which if it's like i have to prove that i did something that mattered
- Speaker #0
You know, and I'm like, oh, that's just offensive to me for some reason. Yeah. But also, like, I understand other sides of it. Like if Heather were to come home, the house is completely destroyed. Kids are fighting and stuff like that. And then she's like, what even happened here today? Then my first inclination isn't to be like, hey, here's how the day flowed. It's to be like, you know, like to respond more like emotionally or not as level headed as I would like to. Yeah. But I don't the gentleman I don't have. Like, I usually don't have. big emotions and that, or I don't express big emotions. And that does lead to some moments of conflict with people like, why doesn't anything phase you? And I'm like, why would like, because it's just life things happen, like it'll all be okay. But then I feel like I'll get a question of like, but do you even care? Cause you aren't having big reactions. Cause I think usually big reactions is how you show you care about something. And I'm like, no, I just let the course play out. Like it'll all be fine.
- Speaker #1
So do you have, I mean, I definitely don't. feel like I've ever seen you have a big negative reaction.
- Speaker #0
No, not really.
- Speaker #1
Do you stay sort of in that like middle range, even with happiness and like joy? I do. Okay. Yes.
- Speaker #0
Which is also then confusing to people because they're like, didn't you really want to go to that concert? I'm like, I did. Did you like it? I enjoyed it. And they're like, expected more range from that. Do you actually remember? Okay, I'm going to do a personal moment between us. Do you remember whenever I picked you up from the airport and a car cut us off while I was driving your van and in the snow? And I was just like. that's happening and then like avoided the wreck and kept driving i do because i even said something i was like wait that was your reaction i was like oh they're doing that now i'm gonna do this so yeah no like and i'm pretty much at all times um which i use a lot of words and i think that's why is because i know i don't emote a lot so i'm like cool so how you communicate to people that you care or your anger or something like that. It's through your words and your tone of voice. So I try to be in tune with what words I use, my word choice and my tone as I talk. Because like, yeah, if right now you're like, hey, Devin, here's free tickets to go see your favorite band ever. Be like, oh, that's really nice. Cool. That's great. I'm excited about that. Thank you.
- Speaker #1
Which it is funny because, yeah, I think when you think of the traditional masculinity profile or whatever. Yeah, that does seem to be different from what traditional. And I hate to say that because like that's not now. I see masculinity and I think society is changing a lot in this sense, but it still exists very strongly.
- Speaker #0
Yep.
- Speaker #1
And so how, do you feel like you're at peace with this idea? Are you still kind of like in that tension of the expectation versus who you are or how is that for you now?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. I think I, I don't feel as much tension with it because I'm very confident that who I am is what helps support my family the best at this point in time. And I think that's what really, because yeah, no matter how you define yourself or anything in the world, it's how is it defined to the people you actually care about is what matters. So I know for like my wife and I in the family, this definition of masculine, what I am is what's helpful the most for them. And like if that somehow changed, then yeah, I'd go back to that tension, trying to figure it all out and everything. But like, yeah, at this point in time, I know that who I am, what role I'm playing in my kids and my wife's lives is actually beneficial to them. And if it wasn't, then I'd be like, oh, crap, I need like this change this. I'm creating bad vibes. I'm like ruffling everything. How do I change this? But yeah, but also still like if I talk to a man who's in his 60s or 70s, like and I say I like now that I'm hesitant to say I'm a stay at home dad, but I do feel my energy change. What do you do for them? I'm like, oh, I stay home with the kids. Then they're like, oh, OK, I worked my whole career. And I'm like, hey, that's great for you. So, you know, there's those are the moments where I'm like, how is this person going to respond to me? Because most dads our age are like, oh, that's the dream. And I'm like, sure. It's still a lot of responsibility that you currently aren't responsible, like you currently wouldn't be willing to do.
- Speaker #1
I love my kids so much, but that's not my dream. Like, you know, that's not everybody's dream because it is incredibly hard. It is so hard.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, it's just you. I think I'm very aware. Maybe it's my nihilist third grade self. But like, I'm very aware of like, there's only so much you can control in your day to day life. There's only so much you can control of another person. So it's more about just creating a structure and a framework they hope they can flourish in. Because like, I can't control if Josh is in a good mood today. I can't control if a kid is like nice today. What I can do is try to set them up for success as much as possible. And then just nudge them whenever I think they're being a jerk, you know?
- Speaker #1
So does it trigger you when people like when you're like, hey, I'm a stay at home dad and there's ever a reaction that is like, oh, you know, or I worked my whole life. Like, is that? Yeah.
- Speaker #0
No, I'm just like, cool. Like, it's not to make it somewhat political. I whenever we got married, we paid off all of our student loans. And whenever the government started paying off student loans, I remember one person was like, oh, don't you wish the government would have done that for you? What about all these freeloaders? And I was like. I mean, we paid off our loans because we knew there was a path in front of us. If other people get to do that, and the government helps them out, that's awesome. That would have been great if I could have had that. It's not what was on the cards for me. So I'm not a very envious person. It just doesn't reside in me. So yeah, if someone was like, oh, blah, blah, blah, I'd be like, cool, that's the hand you're dealt. This is the hand I'm dealt. And how about we focus on how we're making it work, as opposed to how you wish you had what I have. And I wish like, why, why get into a comparison mindset whenever like that? There's already so many opportunities to not get along with people. I try to limit, I try to not lead with like, hey, here's how you're not going to like me, you know?
- Speaker #1
Yeah. What do you feel like? Because I think this is probably a big one, I would imagine, especially with masculinity, like being a stay-at-home dad. What are the assumptions, the incorrect assumptions that you feel like you often get responded with?
- Speaker #0
I will tell you a story that I think is fun that doesn't involve me. But I, whenever we had a dog, I remember taking her to the vet and the vet assistant there who was training to become like a full-time vet was like, I was like, I'm a stay-at-home dad, blah, blah, blah. And she was like, oh, my boyfriend or fiance would love to be a stay-at-home dad. Not that he doesn't have any ambition, not that he's not ambitious. And it's, but also though, like, that's the assumption. Like, okay, cool. If you are giving up a career to stay home with your family, you must not be an ambitious person. And in reality, I'm not an ambitious person. Like I'm not. So like that doesn't offend me. If you're like Devin, you need to be CEO of a company. I'm like, I don't want to do that. That sounds like a lot of work and you could pay me a lot, but I bet I would hate every moment of that. So I think that's the one I can think of immediately is if you're a stay at home dad, well, don't you have any ambition? And it's like, yeah, it just looks different than what you think ambition should look like.
- Speaker #1
And it's interesting because I've never heard somebody make that assumption or say that to a woman. No,
- Speaker #0
never.
- Speaker #1
Or a mom who stays at home. I mean, there's a lot of other assumptions made that, you know, on that side, but like, it is interesting. Ambition is not one that I've heard of with a mom staying home.
- Speaker #0
No, but there's also the, I am not a fan of stay at home culture for the most part, because I started staying home whenever our second child turned one. So we both worked full time for like a full year and like, oh my God, this is way too much. How do we, how do we, how do we change this all up? Because this, I, it didn't feel like it was sustainable and we, you know, figured it out. But like, I am still consistently aware or remember the days in which we would get home at like 6pm with both kids and be like, cool, these kids need to be in bed by seven. No one's taking baths. No one's eating any food. And like, how do we how do we fit in what should be three hours of work into one hour, connect with them, connect with each other, and like, enjoy this at all. So I'm like, oh, I'm perfectly happy to be a stay at home parent, because that's what I feel like I'm avoiding. I am not doing that nighttime routine anymore, because I stay home. So I'm like, that's. That's really nice. I don't really feel like I have much to complain about being a stay-at-home parent because of what I know I'm avoiding, you know?
- Speaker #1
I don't fully understand what you're saying.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah. So let me try to rethink this.
- Speaker #1
So like you're not avoiding the bedtime routine, is that what you're saying?
- Speaker #0
The stress of both parents working. So like whenever you both are getting home, like I don't have to deal with that anymore. So like anything that would be a normal like inconvenience of being a stay-at-home parent, I'm like, sure, I'm dealing with this. But also though, I'm not working a full-time job while also trying to like... you know, whenever you both work, the time you actually have with your kids during the day is like three hours, maybe,
- Speaker #1
maybe not even Yeah, even though like,
- Speaker #0
all of that stress, we don't deal with anymore. So like, I don't, I don't actually feel like being a stay at home parent isn't draining to me. And I think part of it is because of my personality. But also, I consistently remember what it was like both of us working and how much stress that was and how to feel like, I felt like I wasn't doing anything right. I feel like I wasn't there enough for anyone or anything. And like being a stay-at-home parent is like, oh no, I now know what actions I can take to help out against that, you know?
- Speaker #1
Gotcha. Yes, that makes sense. Yeah, because and that's kind of where now, luckily, you know, Bennett and I have very flexible jobs degree and he works from home. But there is still that like, oh my gosh, the intense stress of the like getting out of the house in the morning within a certain time frame. And then, oh man, the coming home like it's the witching hour of just. the commute the traffic kids are decompressing from school yeah and then you get home and i think yeah we probably have it's right at three hours yeah and that's not even for the youngest because he goes to bed earlier so it's like two ish hours to get some energy out you know take a bath maybe most time we don't you know every other night yeah yeah oh that's better we have like monday it's it's like monday and friday they have to wash their hair okay the other nights they at least have to watch like yeah wash the body in between basic maintenance yeah yeah yeah that does make a lot of sense and so other than ambition like are there any other like big things that come up for you or in the past maybe not as much about being a stay-at-home dad that really like the
- Speaker #0
the misunderstandings or the the wrong assumptions about that um i will say one thing i run into that's always funny to me is how many other dads are like always living the dream And then I always want to be like, cool, do you be willing to quit your job and do this? And almost every day I was like, oh, no, I wouldn't be willing to do that. And I'm like, so why are you idealizing something you're not willing to do? You know, and I'm sure some of that's because of finances and all of that. But like, I have met a lot of dads who that'll be their first response. Like, oh, that's the dream, staying home with the kids. I'm like, oh, would you would you quit your job and do it? And they're like, oh, no. And I'm like, yeah, like you wouldn't.
- Speaker #1
I think that's the response. Like, oh, that's the dream.
- Speaker #0
That's the dream.
- Speaker #1
Where's that coming from?
- Speaker #0
I think they're trying to communicate support. is what I hear, is what I'm trying to hear in it. That's the generous read. Is there like, oh man, you get to be around for your kids. You get to be around for the big moments. I work full time. I don't always get to be there for those moments. That's great. You get to, that'd be awesome. Like, I bet that's a dream to be able to do that. That's what I hear it as. That's what I'm, that's what I've interpreted as. So, but yeah, I also don't know. I mean, does a working mom go up to like a stay at home mom and it's like, oh, that's the dream to stay home with the kids. I don't, it doesn't, I don't feel like, I'd be surprised if that was the same. So.
- Speaker #1
I know I haven't said that to a stay-at-home mom, but I don't know if that exists. I mean, I will say I have heard it from women who, I don't want to make assumptions here, but like women who don't have kids, I have heard them say like, oh, all I want to do is be a stay-at-home mom.
- Speaker #0
Oh, yeah.
- Speaker #1
And then they have kids and they're like, oh, and I'm like, yeah, like I'm not saying it's, there's, it's beautiful and it's wonderful, but it isn't also this, like, it is a job. And I don't know. I mean, would you?
- Speaker #0
agree with that would you describe it like that i think you uh i feel like being a stay-at-home parent is you're also kind of like on call at all times so like you kind of create a structure of what you can do with your days to make your kid have fun enjoy themselves maybe educate them a little bit but also know that you're on call at all times so like i'm not just taking care of the three-year-olds who's at home i'm also like wait when are doctors appointments when are dentists appointments if a kid is sick at school that's all on me to take care of so like i don't know. I think it's, hopefully it's like not as much of an assumption of like, if you're a stay at home parent, you just sit around and watch TV all day. If anything, it's like you're figuring out how to entertain a smaller version of yourself who isn't emotionally regulated. Not that you're emotionally regulated. But so you're and
- Speaker #1
I mean, for me, the only thing that makes it really hard for me, personally, I think to make that switch, you know, at work, and I think a lot of us that you don't realize until you have kids. and maybe you don't ever have kids, but like at work, you can disconnect for a while. Yeah. Everyone, we all know how many actual hours a day we work, even at a nine to five, you maybe work what, three or four of those, maybe. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
You can't do that when you're home with kids, like, especially not when they're young. As they get older, yes. Yeah. But like when you've got a one-year-old, two-year-old, three-year-old, no, you can't zone out. Like there is no zoning out or turning your brain off for a moment. And I think. that's the hardest thing to think about. You don't get the 15-minute break. Not really. Unless they sleep.
- Speaker #0
Or you turn on a TV. Two options are begging for a nap or you turn on a TV. I'm all for a good hour of television in the afternoon because realistically if all the kids wake up at 6.30 by the time it gets to be 1 p.m., we've been doing stuff for seven hours. You've already done a full day. So, Michael, let's just do an hour for you guys to. like watch TV and for me to like zone out or not be fully responsible for you for a little bit.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
But yeah, I don't think you can communicate to someone. I always try to like tell dads that whenever they're about to have a kid is like, hey, you've never been fully responsible for something that has no ability to be independent. And you're about to realize you're about not like as a threat, but like you're about to realize what that actually means. And also like there's going to be a month or two in which your wife's body is wrecked. So like you're going to be a lot more needs of you than you realize. So like the best way to support your wife and your child is to just know that for a couple of months you need to be giving as much as you possibly can. And just and just know it. Just go into it being like, hey, there are going to be a lot of needs I can't predict. But the best way to love and help my family is to support my wife and that or to. meet as many needs as I possibly can for my wife and then it'll all be good.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. So do you feel like through having kids or, and through, you know, Heather being in that postpartum phase, like did any of that shift your relationship with masculinity? Cause I could see how it could, especially if you're stepping into more of that space where the times men maybe don't or have it in the past.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, no, it's, um, if you look at older generations i've heard lots of stories where like people's dads legitimately never changed a diaper right like their grandparents or stuff like that where the dad was like i didn't change i never changed a diaper before and i'm like how could you like like i distinctly remember whenever holly our oldest was like a newborn i think heather had finally fallen asleep and like holly then woke up even though she just fell asleep so she was a winter baby. So I remember putting her in a stroller and walking around circles in her house because it's too cold to go outside in hopes that Holly would fall back asleep so Heather could hopefully get at least 30 more minutes of sleep. And I'm like, so you're telling me that other men in this situation would have just woken their wife up and said, hey, the kid's awake again. Like until it's been 30 minutes of me failing at comfort techniques, I'm not waking you up. I'm going to at least try it for a little bit and hopefully not make like. I've also had that experience with a newborn in which you are trying comfort techniques and everything just makes them more mad. And then you do have to wake up your wife and be like, hey, or partner and be like, hey, nothing I do works. And like, that sucks. That's not fun for anyone. Like,
- Speaker #1
yeah,
- Speaker #0
but it happens sometimes.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Well, and when you guys made, when you came to that decision, you talked about earlier, like, okay, we were both working. I guess it was after Magnolia, right? That was right. Yeah. Okay. Yep. Was there any?
- Speaker #0
how did that conversation go with like hey we need to make a change did you know like i i want to be the one that stays at home did heather assume she was going to have to do it or like how did that conversation go it was since we had holly it was always a thought of like what if this made sense for me to stay home um heather's always made more money than i have so it's like partly a financial decision which is just kind of black and white like her salary is this my salary is this which one can you live off of it's kind of it's helps answer a lot of those questions um no so even even whenever we had Holly, it was kind of like. When we had Holly, we still had student loan debt, and then we finished it and paid it off. And then we went under contract to buy a house. So then we're like, hey, my salary really helps with all this stuff. And then, so yeah, there was always a bigger financial need. So then we just reworked the budget a ton whenever we decided for me to stay home to be like, all right, what do we eliminate so we can afford our house and food? And then we'll just live very restricted and hopefully you end up making more money. So no, it wasn't Honestly, the decision for me to be the one to stay home was kind of always the plan just based off of financials of like, here's how much she makes, how much I make, what makes the most sense. And like, then you factor in personalities and stuff like that. Also, I am much more of the two of us. I am the personality who is better suited for it, you know?
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. You are very. So for everybody listening, you watched our oldest daughter.
- Speaker #0
Gosh,
- Speaker #1
it was.
- Speaker #0
A year and a half, maybe.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Kisses. I think it was until COVID until we everything shut down and like we were home anyway. Yeah. And she was born in 2019. So, yeah, it was about a year and a half. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
It's a good year and a half. Yeah. And then I also watched another friend's kid for like a year and a half also. Yeah. Because daycare in Nashville was a second mortgage.
- Speaker #1
Still, still is.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So that's part of it.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. But I bring that up because I remember and even when we'll have like, you know, come to your house with all of our kids, like you are just so even keeled, so calm and. you know cool and collected when you know i get that like visceral body reaction when i have three i don't know how because i don't feel that loud and emotional but maybe i'm lying to myself i have very very loud children all the time um very energetic and expressive and um i'm you know what are other strength made words strength based words yeah yeah there you go yeah yeah But it's like, and then three of them at the same time under six being loud. I'm like, I don't know how you do it. Like, I don't know how to keep your cool.
- Speaker #0
You just.
- Speaker #1
I don't.
- Speaker #0
You're just, no, no. You're just very confident that you're going to let someone down at all times. And you just accept it. And you're okay. Oh, cool. I didn't listen to that kid. Cool. I'll come back later and like try to connect with them then. Because like. in the moment for you to expect that you can be everything to all your kids at that exact moment. You can't. So it's like, all right, cool. You started talking first. So this finished your sentence. Hold on. I'll make sure you get to you. I feel like I'm a press secretary is basically what it feels like a lot of the times.
- Speaker #1
But then add in like the kids running at the same time. How do you be a press secretary when they're running?
- Speaker #0
For whatever reason, I've been lucky that my kids don't need to expel energy a ton. Like they aren't the very like they need to get the Wiggles out. That's never been. a thing if anything we're like how do we get like we bought a trampoline go jump on like it's more that our kids love to like read books and play with barbies and like they'll do that for hours or cars yeah okay yep all right i'm still trying to figure that one out because there's so much energy and but also like sophie was very different at my house than your house like in my house you would like go to a pile of books and sit there and read them and i'd like make a loaf of bread what yeah what are we doing wrong devon tell me i don't know
- Speaker #1
You're the kid guru over here.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, whatever. But yeah, no, I mean, yeah, that's what my memory of her is just like her coming over, finding a toy and playing with it. Maybe I can't be over here, like just putting bread in a bowl or like making bread. Do you want to help me? She's like, no. I'm like, okay, cool. I'm over here. Do you need water? Do you need snacks? And she's like, no, I'm like, cool. I'll do this quickly.
- Speaker #1
I'll say Sophie alone is a whole different Sophie than Sophie around siblings. They are two different people. So I think as we're kind of like wrapping up. you know, when we think about the tension or the bothness of this idea of masculinity, how do you, and you've talked about it a little bit, but like, how do you deal with the both? And what I mean about the both, and at least from my perspective, you tell me if I'm wrong or other things that come to mind, but like you are masculine, but you also aren't in the traditional sense. And that kind of competing thought, even in those conversations when you're telling people like, oh, I'm a stay at home dad. And like, even the tension and the stuff that comes up for you in that moment throughout your life, is that something you were very aware of in the moment? Or has that been later? Oh, I've done some processing and work through it. And I realized I was dealing with all of these things at the same time.
- Speaker #0
I think, let me think.
- Speaker #1
That's a big question.
- Speaker #0
No, no. As a kid, I definitely didn't understand it. All I knew was that I really liked sad music and I wasn't very like athletic, you know, like I like skateboarding and like weird music and stuff, but I didn't know that I was, what I was going up against was. what the societal expectations of me were and how I didn't fit into them. And now, I guess there's like, as an adult, I'm just kind of like, oh, cool. One person explained it to me or I thought it was cool. It was like, oh, so if your son ends up being more traditionally masculine and you aren't traditionally masculine, you're actually just giving your son the whole range of what a man can look like. So you're allowing them to see that it's not just like this cut and dry definition of what masculinity is. I was like, yeah, that's a generous read. I'll take that.
- Speaker #1
I like that. And is there anything I guess you would say to somebody who is struggling with this idea of, you know, their identity around masculinity? Like, what would you say to them?
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
On either end of the spectrum.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I think in most things in life, just try to figure out why you are the way that you are. Because regardless of if it fits into what society tells you is the correct way to live, you should be aware of why you react to things the way that you react. Know your inner child, you know, because that's usually why you react to things the way that you do. And like, regardless of what society tells you, regardless of what society expects of you, knowing why you are the way you are is a massive tool. And it's not to say you should ever justify who you are, but just be aware of who you are. I think self-awareness is always like the most important thing because you might not be able to change who you are, but you should at least know who you are. to some extent. So yeah.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Cause how do you know what to change? You don't,
- Speaker #0
you have to triage, you have to do a lot of triaging before you can actually, uh, start to take movements or change your momentum and inertia.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. And you can't really, I mean, you could do some like behavioral changes, but without really knowing the reason why in, you know, I think to your point of that inner child work, like it's, it's hard to get to the core of actual change without knowing that.
- Speaker #0
Pretty much. Or you just create a rule. And then whenever you break the rule, you feel shame and guilt. So, which then once again, what were you taught as a kid? Don't do this or else. And then you feel shame and guilt. So yeah, just try to figure out who your inner child is. And that's probably why you keep butting your head against things.
- Speaker #1
And anything that has helped you.
- Speaker #0
feel more confident in who you are and not question it as much.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. Mostly Franciscan monks. So Richard Rohr and Thomas Martin and Richard Keating. So I feel like all of those guys are very much just like, Hey, you were made the way you are. You are filled with flaws and you are beautiful the way you are and you are loved. And they just, I think Richard Rohr is like the gentle elder who tells you you're being an idiot in a way in which, you know, you can do better. And I'm just like, yeah, man, just it's, I think they're the type of like. eldership or whatever you want to call it, and which they will point out flaws to you in which you actually want to address them as opposed to hide them. And that is like Breathing Underwater is like one of the most important books to me, Falling Upwards. Yeah, just tons of Franciscan monks. That's basically it. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
I like that because it's so true. And somebody tells you that from a place of love and kindness, it just makes all the difference. And authenticity, it makes all the difference.
- Speaker #1
Well, it's also like, I don't know, if someone tells you you need to be better They also have to communicate whenever they say that in a way which connects with you that they believe you can be better than what you are. Because I feel like some people like, hey, you need to do this differently. And you're like, you don't believe like, you know, like you fight against it. But like, there's some people out there whenever they say, hey, if you make these changes, this is this is what can happen for you. And what you actually believe the version of you that they see. And then that that's such a rare thing to find.
- Speaker #0
And well, I mean, this podcast is called It's Both. And I think of Richard Rohr and the, you know, the idea of the both and. And it is, you know, as you're talking about this, I'm like, you're both good and you could be better.
- Speaker #1
Can we can we talk about Carl Jung and shadow work? Can we just like get it? Yes. Let's do it. I am very. We won't because that'll be another time. I think shadow work is extremely important. I think being aware of who you are. And I think if you want to say that with masculinity as well. I think as a kid, I was taught whatever. that I was taught, like, if something is wrong with you, you need to conquer it and you need to defeat it. And I'm like, no, it's who you are. Like, it's part of you. And like, you don't, you don't conquer your shadow. You accept your shadow and you understand it. And that's what, like, I don't know if people, I don't know if people necessarily change per se, but I think you start to realize your patterns more than that you change. So you realize like, if I go down this path, my shadow takes over. The things I don't like about myself take over and I can't stop that momentum. So that's how you change. You don't actually like, you don't change your shadow. You change your pattern based around your shadow. If that very, very, very nitpicky wording makes sense.
- Speaker #0
It does. It doesn't. It makes me think of one of the reasons, I mean, similar to that, but I love the Enneagram is because you, it's a version of that, right? You have your shadow self and it's like where you show up in your unhealth versus where you show up at your best. And that has been such like a tangible tool for me because I'm an Enneagram nine, which is like peacemaker but it can come with a, oh my gosh, an immense amount of bad habits of like people pleasing and like ignoring myself and just saying yes. And then later being resentful because I don't actually want to do that thing. But yeah. So as you're talking about that, I'm like, yeah. And any of these tools or these theories or whatever that can help us go, oh wait, we are who we are.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Cause you are.
- Speaker #0
And that's okay. Like.
- Speaker #1
Cause it is.
- Speaker #0
You are okay. You are good.
- Speaker #1
you are good and you're great and you're beautiful and like if you expect i mean it's similar to like when you have kids and you're like no matter what i do i am go with being a parent i think one thing i always hope that i can do is have a conversation so like i know i'm going to do stuff that hurts my kids and offends my kids and they need to talk to therapists about later just because i exist you know because i am who i am um and like because everyone has that there's always some childhood trauma or some childhood wound that you have a part to play in regardless if you know you're doing it or not. So to me, what's important in that moment is to realize that's going to happen. So how do you make it a conversation? Because if your kids come up to you and later on in life, they're in their 20s or 30s, and they're like, this hurt me when you did this. And you look at them and say, well, I did the best I could. That conversation is dead at that moment. So you should just know yourself well enough to be like, hey, if my actions made you feel this way, know that that's never something I wanted to communicate to you. And how do I help you to unravel that? Because what you think I had the definition of you is not how I actually define you. So how do I undo this damage that I did to you? Whereas I know lots of people's parents where they're just like, nope, did the best I could. And you're like, that doesn't change my trauma. That doesn't change my pain. So you are going to let people down because you exist and you are human. So how do you accept that? Treat yourself with love still and try to at least correct it a little bit as you do it.
- Speaker #0
Well, it reminds me of this idea of like, so funny story. I promise this connects. But before I named this, it's both this podcast. I One of the ideas that I had was the mediocre mom of like, you know, I have all of this fear and like anxiety around trying to be so. not even perfect, but like good.
- Speaker #1
Just everything.
- Speaker #0
In every area. And I've been trying to intentionally over the years of having kids go, how can I like pull back in these areas and just not give a shit so that I have the capacity to show up as an actually good person in the ways that is the most meaningful. And so like, even as I'm hearing you say that, I'm like, yeah, like how do we like release ourselves of that? Whether it's like masculinity or whatever that that The thing is to go, this is just who I am. Like, yes, I can be better. Let me like release my, we can always be better. Every human can get better. Yes. But we are good. And how do we release ourselves of that? Like I'm never going to let anybody down. No, you are. Yeah,
- Speaker #1
you are. You are. By existing, you are. I mean, if you want to go full Richard Rohr with it, one of the most helpful things that I feel like I've ever read from him was almost Western world does everything in a problem-solving mindset. So most pastors will start the Jesus story in Genesis chapter three, which is the fall of man. So it is very much like, here's the problem. Here's how God solved it. And they just completely ignore the first two chapters, which is there was chaos. There was darkness. And look at all the good and beauty that came out of it. Look at all the good and beauty that God created. Look at your foundation. Your foundation is that you were good and you were beautiful. And sure, did things happen in which like evil came to the world, blah, blah, blah. Yes. But if you start in Genesis chapter three, which is basically you messed up and you're lucky God was willing to fix it. how that's a very different foundation now that i have any religious trauma i haven't deconstructed or anything i would say okay um next time yeah let's get in get in we'll just discuss deconstruction for like an hour or two and uh all the fun that comes with it yeah oh yeah it's years worth of deconstruction
- Speaker #0
for me yay i get that well i loved this conversation i think this is um going to be so helpful to so many people. And I'm just glad that and thankful that you were here and you know, willing to be vulnerable and share your story.
- Speaker #1
Of course, I need to ask you need to ask your last question.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I was about to say so in in wrapping up, finally, you know, the last segment I have is called ridiculous or relatable. So something completely ridiculous that you do quirk that you have, but maybe to somebody else is relatable, or maybe makes you crazy.
- Speaker #1
But you know we'll see yeah yeah okay so um Being an extreme music fan who studied production stuff, whenever I get into a band, I will find out who produced their album, and then I will do a deep dive on who produced that album and all the other stuff that they touched. So if you're like, oh, I listened to the new Jason Isbell album, I'm like, oh, so you probably like Dave Cobb produced albums then. Have you listened to any of the stuff he did with John Prine whenever John Prine came back? Did you listen to The Lone Village? Did you listen to the two albums he did with us? Did you know that he actually owns RCA Studio A and that was only saved because it had been folded back in the early 2000s? You know, like that's where my mind goes. Because clearly, if you like a band, you want to know who produced them and how long they've been producing them. Or like, hey, Weathergain's Jason Isbell produced that by himself. It was the first album in a long time he did without Dave Cobb. Do you think that changed the tone of the album? And people are just like, yeah, I just like this one song. And I'm like, oh, you aren't overanalyzing who his producers are. Like, you don't want to discuss early 2000s indie folk. And if Tucker Martin was like the greatest producer of the Decembrists and Sophia on Stevens, or if they did better with different producers, you don't want to. Sure. No,
- Speaker #0
you don't want to,
- Speaker #1
it's not a common thought. If you didn't look up who produced your meat world and how many albums he produced and who else he worked on and then got it. Yeah. Nope. That's me. Okay.
- Speaker #0
That is so funny. I will say that's not relatable to me personally.
- Speaker #1
Shouldn't be,
- Speaker #0
but I have met others. Well, I know one other person that does similar. Who is it? Thomas, my friend, Thomas.
- Speaker #1
Okay. I don't think so.
- Speaker #0
I feel like you and Thomas would get along very well. yeah but he does it also with movies so he's like music and movies he knows the producer or he'll know like the director and he can tell you all the connections and i'm like yeah i don't know how you guys keep that in your heads but yeah you didn't listen to a lot of early
- Speaker #1
2000s saddle creek albums and know who appeared on which albums and whatnot and all of that stuff you don't whenever it's like hey here's the choir in this bright eye song you don't remember every member of the choir and what other bands they were in no you're good
- Speaker #0
But I am really connected with actors or actresses. And so as soon as we watch me, I'm like, oh, that's the person from that. And then it's like, how do you know everybody? I'm like, I don't know.
- Speaker #1
I don't know. Just put me on a trivia team and it'll help.
- Speaker #0
Oh, well, so good to talk to you today. Thank you for being here.
- Speaker #1
Of course. Gladly.
- Speaker #2
And I just want to say thank you so much to Devin for being here. If you want to listen to Devin and hear more about his experiences and talks with other fathers, you can listen to the Imperfect Dads podcast on Apple, on Spotify, or even on YouTube. You can also find them on Instagram at the Imperfect Dads podcast. And thank you to each of you for being here as well. I can't tell you how much it means to me that you would take time out of your day to be here and to listen along. And if you haven't done so already, please take a minute to subscribe and leave a quick rating and review of the show on Apple Podcasts by clicking the link in the show notes below. Not only is this super impactful for the show, but it also really helps others who might be struggling with some similar things to find us. And I love hearing from each of you. So please follow the show on Instagram at It's Both Podcast to join the conversation and get behind the scenes content. You can also send me an email directly at itsbothpodcast at gmail.com. Thank you again for listening and remember. It's okay to feel all the things because so many times in life, it isn't either or. It's both.
