Transcription

• Speaker #0

  I can see things in students that I previously missed, now that I have a greater understanding of my own neurodiversity.

• Speaker #1

  Welcome to Neurodivergent Spot, the podcast where we put a spotlight on behind-the-scenes elements of the neurodiversity world. The guests bring their own experience, insight, expertise, and passion. I ask them four questions. and they will have 60 seconds to answer. After they answer all the questions, the guest will choose which question to return to for further conversation. I'm your host, Sam Marion. My pronouns are he, him, and I'm a multiply neurodivergent therapist, speaker, and creator. My work focuses on all things neurodiversity, but with particular interest in autism, ADHD, learning differences, and learning disabilities. Today's guest is Maggie Beatty Roberts. Maggie, please introduce yourself to the listeners.

• Speaker #0

  Hi, I am Maggie Beatty Roberts. My pronouns are she and her. I have ADHD and for a living, I design professional learning for public school teachers in their schools. I also write to support teachers and create content to support teachers. And in my spare time, you can always find me in my garden. And if the weather is warm, I'm in the garden outside. And if the weather is cold, I'm in the garden in my home. And so plants are something that bring me a lot of joy and satisfaction tending to.

• Speaker #1

  Quick disclaimer, information shared on this podcast should not be taken as therapy, health care, or legal advice. And the listeners can't see it, but you are surrounded by some beautiful plants. Maggie and I first connected in our graduate certificate program on neurodiversity. We had multiple classes together, and that was a lot of fun getting to know her through that. So if you're ready, we're going to jump in.

• Speaker #0

  Go ahead.

• Speaker #1

  Maggie, what was your journey to understanding your own neurodivergence?

• Speaker #0

  So I don't think I understood my own neurodivergence until much later in life. I fall into the category of women. who received a later stage diagnosis, perhaps in their late 30s, early 40s, mid 40s. And I must say the moment that I had when I realized, actually, I think I live with ADHD and was able to take on that lens to look at my own life, it was a profound shift. And now when I look back at my previous history and my past, so much makes sense now that I had more of a formal diagnosis of ADHD.

• Speaker #1

  You know, that idea of looking back and things just making sense is such a common experience. That's one that will be a theme throughout this podcast. All right. Question number two. How did your neurodivergence impact your experience in the classroom as a teacher, a student, or both?

• Speaker #0

  Excellent question. So I am a former middle school teacher. I started teaching when I was fresh out of college at 22 years old. And I say that because my life was always organized with a series of classroom bells. I never really had to think about how to structure time, how to begin things, how to end things, because my life was always in schools, both as a student and as a teacher. So when I think about how that experience hit me in the classroom as a teacher, what I really came to find out was during the pandemic, when all of those structures were taken away and I had no more classroom bells, and I had no more periods where I knew what to do in the beginning, in the middle, and end of a period, I felt very lost at sea with my time. I have a feeling that might be a question I want to return to, Sam.

• Speaker #1

  All right, we will bookmark that one. Let's keep going. Question number three, here we go. How did neurodivergence or neurodiversity impact the many different roles that you hold?

• Speaker #0

  I think that... You know, one is I hold the role as a teacher. I'm a guest teacher now in other people's classrooms. And I can see things in students that I previously missed. Now that I have a greater understanding of my own neurodiversity, I also think as someone who works with teachers primarily on my day-to-day, it helps me both identify needs in teachers that they might have in their own learning scenarios that I can then bring some tips and tricks to. But then also it's had a profound impact of me as a... parent. I have two younger children. Both are neurodivergent and it is a really beautiful thing to discover your own ADHD, your own neurodivergence at the same time your kids are discovering their own ways that their brains work.

• Speaker #1

  That's a really beautiful parallel process. I think professionally, personally in these different roles, seeing how that plays out. A teacher example, I heard this just this morning, a family was talking about how their elementary age child is being supported really well by the teacher because the teacher recently came to understand their own diagnosis that aligned with this child. And so the teacher is experimenting for themselves in their own support needs. And the parents feel it so deeply in such a positive way because the child feels it and the child can tell that it's different.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly.

• Speaker #1

  All right, question number four. What is one thing that you think all classroom teachers could easily implement to better support neurodivergent students and why?

• Speaker #0

  The thing that's coming to mind is just the different ways that different bodies need to regulate. So, for example, I noticed that one of my own children cannot sit still. We're talking at the dinner table, when we're watching TV, when grandpa's telling a story, right? That this little guy that I have is always constantly on the move. And he's on the move because he needs to move to focus, right? He can't focus and zoom in on the conversation or the television program or the lesson that the teacher is teaching unless he's moving. And so I feel that one thing... we can do to easily implement to better support neurodivergent students is just to know that regulation and focus, different bodies have to do different things in order to pull that off.

• Speaker #1

  Yes, different bodies need different things.

• Speaker #0

  Different bodies need different things.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, I work with so many different neurodivergent adults, children, there are people who the more they are moving, the more they are paying attention.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly, exactly. And for some of us, it's very counterintuitive, right? Because some of us, in order to really pay attention, we have to be in a very still state or a very still state communicates respect and engagement. And I think that some kids are misinterpreted for the movement that they have to embody in order to achieve the goal of the classroom, which is... focus and engagement.

• Speaker #1

  Sometimes we can engage our bodies in other ways that are not moving that help us to blend in a little bit in scenarios. They make like weighted hoodies now, things like that, that have more engagement for the body, a wobble seat that doesn't involve giddy up moving all over the place, but it's still engaging for the body.

• Speaker #0

  Yes. And I do feel like the tools that are accessible to classroom teachers now, some of the ones that you mentioned, or I'm thinking like that rubber band that is on the desk legs and you can swing your feet on it. We're really lucky that there are tools available that can help a kid move in a way that isn't disruptive to the whole group.

• Speaker #1

  Weighted stuffed animal in a kid's lap at young elementary ages, things like that. There's so many different things that can engage the body without the young person having to be moving around nonstop. And I think a big thing for teachers, and this is important to me, The teacher gets to stand up and move around a lot while these young children don't. And we recognize how the teacher can meet their needs for movement. And then the elementary age children in the classroom don't get the same opportunities. And so that's sometimes we forget that there's so many things that adults that we get to do to meet our needs that we don't give children the same opportunity. And that's that's something for us to wrestle with as well, I think.

• Speaker #0

  Such a good point.

• Speaker #1

  So, Maggie, I want to go back to one of the questions. You kind of earmarked that maybe you want to return to that second question about how neurodivergent impacts your experience. Is that still the one you want to return to?

• Speaker #0

  I think it is. Yes. How did my neurodivergence impact my experience in the classroom as a student and as a teacher? I think that one thing I struggle with is my executive functioning around planning and organizing time and task initiation and focus to follow through. All of these really important skills that help you. navigate schooling. And I do think that there are some systems and structures in classrooms at schools that really do help facilitate and nurture a child's executive functioning, like start and end times of periods, like the flow between reading class and math class, like the sound of the bells that mark the transition. And I think that some of those systems for me before my diagnosis were camouflaged. I didn't see how reliant I was on the ways that schools can help both kids and adults organize their time. And I think that as I reflect on that as a student, I think about the classrooms that I really thrived in and the classrooms that I struggled in more. And if I have that overlay on those invisible kind of systems and structures of a school, yeah, it was the classrooms that organized their time in a way that had clear beginning, middle, and ends, had clear markers of this is what you do to get started, and this is what you do to finish. And I think about if that is just a baseline of what schools can offer. The structure of class periods, the structure of bells, the structures of one class moving to the other. There are also so many more things we can do to help a child that might be struggling with executive functioning. And we know that many people who are neurodivergent also struggle with some of those executive functioning skills. And I think my own neurodivergence helps me sit alongside a teacher and say, you know, yeah, like how can we be really explicit and clear on like the three things a kid needs to do to start this lesson or the three things a kid needs to do to end this lesson to get ready to move on to the next lesson. So having teachers get a bird's eye view on how is school organized for children and how can I go in and be even more explicit with some of those systems, it can really help a kid orient themselves, not just to the beginning of the day, but help them navigate their whole time through the school day.

• Speaker #1

  You know, I'm hearing you talk about systems and structure from the school day to the assignments. And it's all these different tiers of a possible structure, right? And that all sounds really great. If you're somebody who can accept and thrive in structure. So what about the teachers or the students who just sort of buck back and like fight back at structure? How do we navigate that?

• Speaker #0

  I think that's a really good question. You know, one place my mind is leading me to think about that question is, are there times, because you're right, you know, if it's someone else's structure. Or if it's a systematic structure, there might be people, adults and children, who buck against that. And so it makes me think about where are the moments of individualism and choice inside these big structures where students and teachers, kids and adults, can have a sense of agency of how they are organizing their time. So, for example, I may not be able to... change the start time and end time of, say, math class, or I may not be able to change the overall structure of this essay form that I'm teaching to a group of students. However, what are the choices I could give to empower the child to create their own path through that structure? Because I think when kids and adults are bucking another person's or another system's structure, It is a call for, hey, I have agency here. Hey, my mind sees a way to organize this in a different way. So going back to that essay structure example, I might say, like, here's a structure of a five-paragraph essay. We want to make sure that we're using a structure to organize our thoughts. It would be okay if a student could pitch an alternative structure to the way that they're organizing their thoughts and be able to say, well, instead of having an idea, prove it, prove it, prove it essay, maybe what I really want to do is have an investigative thought essay and use my essay to explore thinking versus prove my thinking. That way, In the classroom, everybody's using a structure, but you've given some choice and agency to a child that might be bucking against a more normative, big structure that lots of people are using.

• Speaker #1

  In my work, I get the opportunity to see when teachers do this really well, because I'll have clients that will talk about it. And so even that, I think about, you know, in terms of giving choices, sometimes it's structure, sometimes it is. You know what? Fine. You don't want structure? Go for it.

• Speaker #0

  It makes me think a lot about providing kids and adults with multiple means of expression, right? Multiple ways that I can express my knowledge and convey my knowledge to you. And for some kids, it might be a highly structured piece of writing, like a 300-word kind of power essay. But for some kids, the way that they're going to express their knowledge is through a more 900-word exploratory paper where they're really valuing elaboration. And then another kid might need not something where they're putting their hands to a keyboard or holding a pen with their hand. They need more of a verbal composition form where they're talking out their essay or even drawing out conceptually their essay. So... Thinking about my own neurodiversity and how it impacts the classroom, I think that's the second piece, which is it impacts my ability to see that this might be the majority of kids'ways of expressing their knowledge, but there are other ways and options that kids have to express what they know.

• Speaker #1

  If I'm a parent listening to this and I'm thinking, okay, this is great. I wish Maggie could help. My kids'teachers understand some of this stuff. Are there ways that you could help parents understand their own child's learning and support from that direction?

• Speaker #0

  It makes me think a lot about the wonderful writing teacher, Donald Graves, who would talk about the power of kid watching. Just giving yourself permission, three to five minutes, just to watch a child engage in a task. And I think as parents, there's nothing more than we love is to watch our kids experience the world. But usually there are 10,000 things going on in our mind at one time. And so I think that step one could be if parents are curious about, you know, different ways to start in this work is just to kind of watch how your child engages in a task. For example, do they sit? And sketch and doodle for the first three minutes and then kind of start writing. Are they talkers? Are they needing to turn and talk to you to talk out something before they go and write? Are they the type of kid who can start writing right away and you can see the structure showing up? And so, and then I think the second piece is that as we're kid watching, A, we're just... We're just bookmarking some time, three to five minutes, to watch our child engage in a task, to be curious about how they are engaging, and three, embrace our own wait time of not interfering verbally or physically, right? So that, you know, by minute three, if a kid isn't writing yet, a teacher might or a parent might really want to be like, let's get going. But if you don't interfere and you watch. the process, that can be a really powerful study to bring those observations to an educator or a classroom teacher and say, I've been watching my kid engage in homework, and this is the process I'm watching them go through. How is that playing out when they're with you during the X amount of hours in a day? And so don't underestimate the power of kid watching, being curious, and giving yourself permission not to. to interject, but just to watch and observe.

• Speaker #1

  The logical starting first step that I have in my head may not be the logical first step in anybody else's head. And I should try to push that on others, but just watch. I love that. I frequently use language around. Asking questions with a compassionate curiosity. So yeah, thank you for sharing that tip, that approach. Maggie, before we wrap up though, if people are listening to this and they're thinking, I'd like to learn more from Maggie, how can people find you? Where should they look? How can they learn more from you?

• Speaker #0

  I would say head to my website. It is kateandmaggie.com. And on that website, you will find... everything from a little bit more about me and my teaching history and some publications that I've written. But you'll also see a bunch of resources that you can look at as a parent and resources that you could even recommend to the educators in your life. Obviously, our socials are attached to that website. And so Instagram and TikTok are all places that we try to make sure we're engaged in the conversations that educators are having about all things education. And what's really lovely is seeing so much conversation in the educational community around neurodivergence now and around neurodiversity and around kind of these multiple ways that kids both learn and express their knowledge. And so, yes, katenmaggie.com would be a perfect place to start.

• Speaker #1

  Maggie, thank you for letting me pick your brain. And I certainly hope and I feel confident that listeners will have learned a lot from you. So thank you. Thanks for listening to Nerd Divergent Spot. I'm Sam Marion. If you enjoyed this episode, I hope you'll subscribe and share it around. And remember, if you're looking for a speaker or trainer, reach out to see how we can work together. You can find me on Instagram at Nerd Divergent Spot. And from there, you can find all my other places online.