Transcription

• Speaker #0

  I have ADHD and sometimes I get off topic a little bit and I want you to know that, right? Boom.

• Speaker #1

  Welcome to Nerdivergent Spot, the podcast where we put a spotlight on behind the scenes elements of the nerdiversity world. The guests bring their own experience, insight, expertise, and passion. I ask them four questions and they will have 60 seconds to answer. After they answer all the questions, the guest will choose which question to return to for further conversation. I'm your host, Sam Marion. My pronouns are he, him, and I am a multiply neurodivergent therapist, speaker, and creator. My work focuses on all things neurodiversity, but with particular interest in autism, ADHD, learning differences, and learning disabilities. Today's guest is Chris Winger, also known online as Speech Dude. Chris, please introduce yourself to the listeners.

• Speaker #0

  Hey, thanks so much for having me on, Sam. I'm excited about this episode. I'm Chris Winger. My pronouns are he, him. I work in the schools as a high school speech therapist. I've been doing this, gosh, 21 years now. Prior to that, for three years, I was a special education teacher. So I was able to get a really good sense of writing a full IEP from a teacher's standpoint. I'm a... I'm a dad now of four boys and soon to be number five coming soon. I love to be out by the beach. That's like my thing. So the beach and I grew up playing music. So I have a former life of touring in bands and all that good stuff. So all things come full circle to where I'm at now. It's great.

• Speaker #1

  Quick disclaimer. Information shared on this podcast should not be taken as therapy, healthcare, or legal advice. I'm glad you're here with us. I'm excited about this. I look forward to hearing your answers to the questions we've got coming up. So if you're ready, we'll dive in.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, absolutely. Let's get them.

• Speaker #1

  All right, here we go. Question number one. What was your journey to understanding your own neurodivergence?

• Speaker #0

  Growing up in a small town here in Southern California, I was at an elementary school and found myself being in detention quite often. And it was because I was always moving. I was impulsive. I was the kid bouncing off the walls in class, so to speak, or at least that's what the reports would say. And it was about, gosh, I want to say it was younger elementary. I got a diagnosis. So fast forward to now, for the past, gosh, 15 years, I've been really open about having ADHD and really trying to. change the narrative on how we view, you know, how we view all, all neurodivergences. But that's been my journey. Yeah. It started off from early elementary school and the rest is history.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. I love the history. It's interesting how many people that I've interviewed so far, and this is an early in the podcast that people have shared this, like, well, in elementary school, I was the kid who was fill in the blank. That was me.

• Speaker #0

  It's funny. Cause they're not always like there there's that student, Chris, it was always, Oh, that student that's climbing up the walls. Yeah. We know him.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. How many people are like, they're known people and it's not just, it's everybody kind of knows them.

• Speaker #0

  That's it. That was me.

• Speaker #1

  Awesome. Let's keep going. Question number two, how has your neurodivergence impacted your work as a speech therapist?

• Speaker #0

  Gosh, yeah. You know what? We might have to circle back around to this, but it's interesting with the double empathy problem. The more we learn about other people that share similar neurotypes or similar conversation styles, the easier it is to connect. I've always had a connection with students on IEPs. So that right there has been a game changer because I think from early on, I just know it felt comfortable in speech sessions. what seemed to work for students. And I also had this ability to see when something wasn't working or something was uncomfortable. And those things that were always uncomfortable or trying to teach through video modeling on imitating, you know, whatever role model or whatever was being role played in the video and all of that stuff that led to masking. So anyway, yeah, it's really being neurodivergent myself has supported. my view of how I, of how I approach things.

• Speaker #1

  Uh, I appreciate you sharing about the empathy. That's such a big part of this. And I think it's, it's a part that people miss. about neurodivergent folks, right? People miss how empathic so many neurodivergent people are.

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely. Yeah, that plays a huge role. I think that plays a huge role in the way I can relate and have that conversation with families as well. That's a huge piece too, because I have a little bit of that lived experience that resonates.

• Speaker #1

  And yeah, we're in a world now where we're finally acknowledging the importance. of the lived experience. And I think that's powerful too.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, that's absolutely powerful.

• Speaker #1

  Let's keep going. Question number three. How has your neurodivergence led you to entrepreneurship?

• Speaker #0

  My life with ADHD has never changed. 46. So for 46 years, it's like, I want to do new things. And then once I do the new thing, I want to do another new thing. And so it started off, honestly, for me and music. and being an entrepreneur with creating band merchandise, then becoming a speech therapist and speaking for the Bureau of Education and Research and working as an entrepreneur, as a speaker at the national level, and then COVID hit and having knowledge from, I used to develop websites and code and stuff too. So taking my technology skills, tying that into TikTok and Instagram and really pivoting to creating online content and courses and an activity book, all of those things. But that all comes from my neurotype. And I'm okay with that.

• Speaker #1

  Chris, I had someone else tell me that for a lot of ADHDers, our hobby is finding more and more hobbies.

• Speaker #0

  That's my hobby.

• Speaker #1

  And that resonated for me. I was like, oh, gosh, here I was at the time. Like drafting out the outline of a new podcast. When they said that, I was like, oh, okay. Yeah, I get that.

• Speaker #0

  The hardest thing I have is when I create something and I want to get it in people's hands because it's valuable. I truly stand by quality. And I know I have good quality of like a product, but I'm already thinking about what's the new thing. So then I push the other. thing aside because i want the new thing that's like that's always my challenge um but yeah so it's it with every great thing it has its uh it has its kryptonite i know i i get it can totally relate uh all right last question last

• Speaker #1

  one out of the first out of these four what unexpected factors led to you being such a well-known advocate for neurodiversity affirming practices gosh yeah there are

• Speaker #0

  A couple of unexpected things. Honestly, for me, and being more well-known, was the transition from when the pandemic hit because that forced me into creative mode and being online more present and TikTok and creating silly dance videos that tied into neurodiversity affirming stuff. Plus, I had a lot of time away from the traditional or the campus. and more time researching and listening to autistic voices and diving into journals and blogs. And that had been a big game changer. That was very unexpected. So all things just kind of came full circle to lead to an online presence with strategies that work or that resonate with people that respect others, you know? So it all worked out great.

• Speaker #1

  I appreciate your answer and all that. And it is interesting how much creativity came out of COVID.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, that was the pivotal moment, honestly, because I remember TikTok being musically. I think that was the app that a lot of people were doing. But many years ago, I was using Vine doing seven-second videos. And that was popular at the time for a certain group. But then TikTok came and it was totally, it was a longer video form. It resonated more with a large group of people. I had presented about TikTok and how it was going to be the next big thing. That was four years ago, right when the pandemic hit. And it did. I knew it. So, yeah, all of that changed everything. It was unexpected, but all unexpected for the better, I think.

• Speaker #1

  Remains to be seen, right? I think this is going to be a hindsight thing. We'll look back on it one day.

• Speaker #0

  Right, yeah, absolutely.

• Speaker #1

  At this point. let's go back pick one of these questions you part way through your answer on the second when you said maybe let's come back to this is that still the question you want to go back to let's chat a little bit more

• Speaker #0

  I like talking about the therapy setting and me, you know, with my lived experience and yeah, so we had mentioned like, how has my neurodivergence impacted me as an SLP? And it has in so many ways, but more specifically, I'll dive into that. When learning about neurodiversity affirming approaches, it became more work on myself. So the more I worked with my students and in my setting on. building positive self-identity, becoming more aware that being different is okay, and then learning how to develop and feel okay with who we are, rather than feeling pushed to be someone that was inauthentic to ourselves or to be someone different. That built positive self-esteem and teaching the students that when you have that positive self-identity and self-esteem, you're more inclined to... Ask the teacher or ask the assistants in class for some accommodations, such as if it's too many students talking at once during a science lesson, asking the teacher and finding out ways of doing it. Maybe it's through email or writing it down or going up and speaking to the teacher. Is it okay if I wear my noise-canceling headphones? Or is it okay if I step out of the class for a couple minutes? I'm starting to feel a little dysregulated. And really building that language because in— Me teaching the students, it's bettered my life in so many ways. I'll give you an example. I do this at every IEP meeting with parents. I give them the heads up and I advocate by saying, I have ADHD and sometimes I get off topic a little bit and I want you to know that, right? Boom. That took five seconds. Now the parent knows that there's a high likelihood that I'm going to go down five different paths before we... get back to my main point. But that's advocating for letting people know, hey, I don't want you to be thrown off here, but, and just all sorts of other things too. You know, we really take our activities and our group work and I create an environment that feels natural for conversations to happen and authentic friendships and connections to happen. So we can do a variety of collaborative games like Outfoxed. or I have my Nintendo Wii in my office and we'll play a game of Mario Kart or Wii Sports. And in that, conversations just happen naturally. And then we could like reinforce by talking about like, hey, I really liked how, you know, and then I described the things that worked out well. So it reinforces those connections. And that ends up leading and fostering growth and communication and friendship skills beyond my walls. So you'll, so. You'll see a student who maybe was by themself at lunch, but has expressed, hey, I don't love being by myself. It would be nice to have somebody to be with, maybe not feel like I have to chit chat, but just to be someone just next to me while I'm, you know, watching Sonic the Three, Sonic the Hedgehog Three trailer, and they're playing Roblox or something. So we create that. And the next thing you know, we, I see students hanging out. and enjoying and finding a love of coming to school. And that's huge. Like you want to be going into a place where you feel like your needs are being met, where teachers and therapists and staff members are listening and valuing those needs. But you're also having a sense of belonging because you know a couple people, even if it's one. I always tell people like, if you have one friend that you can connect with or one person to hang out with, that can make all the difference. So... All of that, again, as I just mentioned too, I'm going to come full circle back to the question. I think that is where the ADHD in me and understanding my own struggles growing up have really helped me on how to address those struggles in a healthy way. And it's been such a great step forward. And we got many more steps to go, but we're getting there. We're getting there, Sam.

• Speaker #1

  You know, what jumps out to me is what you're describing is, I think, you can tell me if I'm wrong, but it's a shift in the goals we're setting. Instead of pushing for a certain type of social interaction, we're making it okay for the social interaction to be, I'm going to sit next to my friend while they do their thing and I'm going to do my thing. And this is us being social. And this is okay. And that's a big deal.

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely. Yeah, you nailed it. That's exactly it. We are getting away from the traditional mindset of focusing on neurotypical or neuro normative standards and making a shift to understanding that, hey, you shouldn't have to feel forced into these situations. You know, a good example or analogy is at some point in our lives. maybe a loved one or family member is going to get married and we go to a wedding. And just imagine going to a wedding. And then when you get there, you know, the people at the table, but somebody tells you, you can't sit at that table. You have to go sit at a table where you don't know anybody. You have to strike up a conversation about a topic that is not preferred about something you don't like. And you have to follow up with a bunch of questions and, you know, monitor yourself like nobody wants that. But then we ask our our students and our autistic kids to do that it's like it's just wild so um so yeah we want we want to we want to be in situations where we feel safe that's like number one right i want to be in a situation where i feel safe and if i can feel safe and regulated then i'm more inclined to have conversations with others that are making me feel safe you know just yeah think of the

• Speaker #1

  you're describing the wedding scenario and I'm like, I'm just going to hang out in the bathroom or something. I'm not, I'm not going to do that. Uh, I get a stand for the tall boy table somewhere. I'm not, I'm just not going to do it.

• Speaker #0

  Um, uh,

• Speaker #1

  you know, one thing that I hold onto in these, these moments I was thinking about when I was in college, I worked at a camp one summer, it was for gifted kids. And it was a three week long residential camp. And so we had two sessions and I was, I was a residential counselor and and, I think I had 12 boys in my group in the dorms. And so there's a point in the time of the night when it's like, we're hanging out in the hall and they can't leave the building. They got to stay in the hall, but they don't have to be in the room yet. Or there's a couple of times a day like that. These were 12, 13, 14 year olds. And the first session, me and the other counselor in the hall, we had to sit in the middle of the hallway to try to keep the kids. Cause there was like a boy's end and a girl's end. And so we tested in the middle. So they weren't like running back and forth. They'd be playing. baseball in the hallway, quit throwing a ball, like so active in this, we think this neuro-normative standard of social interaction. Then the next term, you could walk into a silent dorm room and there'd be nine boys sitting in there. It'd be completely silent. But you have two kids playing chess, two kids playing Othello, this kid reading a comic book, this just, but someone's watching the game. And you can't argue to me. that that's not social. There's nine kids. You know how small a dorm room is? They're tiny, but it'd be full. But they're all doing what they want to do alongside their friends. Nobody was isolated. Nobody was alone. And it felt completely social, but okay. And I think that drives me in my work. And I use that image a lot. Because again, you'd be a room full of people. They're being social in their way, how they want to be social.

• Speaker #0

  That's exactly it. That's exactly it. There's not one way of being social, right? Yeah, I'm totally with you on that. And that right there, that kind of setting where just being around others, that fosters future healthy mental health outcomes, right? That's what we really look for, too. We look for the long-term stuff as well. And that becomes a centerpiece of our line of work. So, kudos.

• Speaker #1

  So is there anything else on this topic you want to share before we wrap up? We've sort of touched a lot of things in a short period of time. And I think this is really going to be a lot of great information, but just put it out there. Anything else that you wanted to touch on before we start to wrap up?

• Speaker #0

  Gosh, no, I think that we really hit home with some really solid information. I think that's the key is to, yeah, just to really. Focus on those authentic connections. And, you know, really, I think as we move forward, it really spreading the word and continuously doing it. It's interesting because I do want to share one thing that the moment I felt like everybody's heard of neurodiversity affirming strategies or the moment you think that, not but a minute later, something pops up. So I just want to say, keep the drive going and the journey focused because- There are millions and millions of people out there that have never even heard of neurodiversity affirming stuff. So that's the ticket. Keep going forward.

• Speaker #1

  I love that you said that. I love that you shared about authenticity. Just in the last couple of days, I got a message, a DM on Instagram, somebody asking me any advice on connecting with neurodivergent students in their school. And my response was start with authenticity. Connect with them through being your authentic self. So just for me personally, felt affirming. So I appreciate you saying that.

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely. I love that. Yep. The authenticity wins the race. It always will.

• Speaker #1

  So Chris, before we wrap up, will you tell the listeners, how can they find you?

• Speaker #0

  Oh yeah. You know what? There's two ways that they can find me. Go to speechdude.com and I've got some information there. The other way to find me is like on social media at Speech Dude. So if you're interested in checking out some of the things we talked about, activity book or anything, you can go to my Instagram and inbox me the word bananas. and you'll meet my speech dude bot that will give you all sorts of information. So that's on Instagram, man. You just inbox me or message me the word bananas. You'll be taken on a journey. If anything, it's just fun to go, oh, wow, technology's come such a long way. But yeah, that's where you can locate me.

• Speaker #1

  I appreciate you sharing that. Obviously, now I have the Gwen Stefani song in my head. It's spilling out bananas, but that's... It's my own neurodivergent brain, and that's what happens. But truly, folks, check it out. Chris has a lot of great content there. He's a great follow. I learn a lot. So thank you for what you do. Chris, thank you for joining me here today. And anybody who listened, thank you for joining us.

• Speaker #0

  Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it.

• Speaker #1

  Thanks for listening to Neurodivergent Spot. I'm Sam Marion. If you enjoyed this episode, I hope you'll subscribe and share it around. And remember, if you're looking for a speaker or trainer, reach out to see how we could work together. You can find me on Instagram at NeuroDivergentSpot. And from there, you can find all my other places online.