- Speaker #0
When you look at the statistics, and it's not my statistics, it's like QVR statistics, there are more than 100 drugs that have been launched in the US in the last five years that are not in Europe, right? And we see this number is very constantly growing. If you want to build a commercial organization or commercial platform in Europe, you cannot just translate what you've done in the US. It's very different muscles. You need different capabilities, you need to think about different things and so on. I think we've got 10,000 often. Most of them are not there and the large majority impacts kids right as well. So it's really helped BioPharma to make the last mile to their patients. Many of them have done incredible work. The last piece is very important and very often is a bit neglected because it's not seen by this R&D organization. It's not seen as a challenge. What we try to do is to help them just evolve to the next step and really make sure that they don't miss what we call really the last mile.
- Speaker #1
This episode is supported by Xcube.bio. Welcome to PharmaMinds. Today, I'm with Pierre-Henri Belin, and I'm very happy to be here with you, Pierre-Henri.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, thank you very much for inviting me. Very happy as well. Pleasure to be in this very famous podcast now.
- Speaker #1
Yes, and to share your story.
- Speaker #0
Exactly.
- Speaker #1
In a few words about what you've done, you've worked your whole career at... Johnson & Johnson and you decided to become an entrepreneur.
- Speaker #0
We made the jump in 2022, very young, yes, with XCubeBio and we are a platform that helps big pharma, little pharma, late stage biopharma to really get into Europe in the best possible way. So we are market entry accelerator.
- Speaker #1
Okay, why I wanted you here today is a because you told me since Yes, this month, these years, you've met 100 biotechs existing abroad, out of Europe, and you've discovered that maybe 100 drugs were available outside Europe, and there were really interesting drugs for patients, but not existing in Europe.
- Speaker #0
When you look at the statistics, and it's not my statistics, it's QVIA statistics, there are more than 100 drugs that have been launched in the US in the last five years that are not in Europe, right? And we see this number is very constantly growing, unfortunately. And it means, just as simple as that, is that patients in Europe are not treated the same way as in the US, and they have not access to the same type of drugs, right? And here we're really talking about new molecular entities, so not even you know, biosimilar or generics or things like that.
- Speaker #1
What opened your eyes to this program? Because you were in the big pharma, and Can you explain maybe when you realized something is broken? I mean, we need to...
- Speaker #0
Well, yeah, I think it's probably really starting with a small conversation. I mean, the very beginning of this was a conversation I had with a Deloitte partner in healthcare called, I mean, his name is Anno Ronte. And Deloitte was running something that is called Biotech in the Box. Which was a great program, helping or advising biotech to really go to Europe and making the best of it and so on. And the reflection we had was that an advisory was nice, was useful, but was not maybe enough. And there was a need for more than that. And it was just this conversation that just sparkled a little bit of curiosity. In a good moment of your life, maybe. Yeah, also, there is where you ask yourself, what do I want to do in the next year, in the next... 10 years or whatever. And then we keep looking at that. This was also in the context a couple of years ago, or even more now, maybe five years ago, where you had this very high-profile biotech coming to Europe, like Bluebird Bio, like Agios, others, and just running into problems. And those biotechs were our first great assets, great teams, very well advised. And so there was really something about the execution, right, that needed to be sorted. It was not just about how do we do things, about the talents of people. And this was probably the way things would happen. And from my experience, I was exposed to a lot of biotech assessing their commercial value for licensing or acquisition for J&J or for Actelion and so on. And I knew there was a lot of these companies around with great assets. That were not necessarily a good fit for big pharma in a sense that they were really on a very targeted disease, very difficult to fit in the portfolio or a technology. that was very difficult to integrate into an existing platform. And when we check the numbers, and these are numbers we are talking about, like 2,000 NMEs and things like this, we say, well, there is something here. There is something that should be done because there is this big wave of innovations coming, and this is not easy to get to Europe for reasons you like or you don't like. I mean, you can have your judgment on the way things are happening in Europe, but it's the reality. So, And we need to help in the world. There is something to do to execute.
- Speaker #1
Can you maybe illustrate with an example? You talked about Bluebird.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I mean, Bluebird is one example. Or maybe another example.
- Speaker #1
What's happening on the execution? Is it like a non-preparation or too complexity?
- Speaker #0
No, I think this is probably the translation of what they can do in the US needs to be adjusted and adapted. And what we realize... Many people realize, I guess, that if you want to build a commercial organization or commercial platform in Europe, you cannot just translate what you've done in the US. It's very different muscles. You need different capabilities, you need to think about different things and so on. And when you've got this late-stage biotech, which are basically very much R&D organization to start with. They need to already make a big leap to get to commercial stage, U.S. focused, and this is very difficult for them to make the next level. And so they've got good advisory, but the execution and the planning is not necessarily. doing in the right way. And typically Bluebird Bio, for example, or Aegios, I mean great companies, I mean we met with the executive, they were, they are absolutely great, so this is not a competency, this is about making it work. and having the right sequence of execution, having the right angle, strategic angles, understanding in a deep way the stakeholders, how payers would work, for example, or how an hospital or a KOL would work in a different way than in the U.S., right? And so this is all these things that need to be there. Okay.
- Speaker #1
And you decided to, what, how did you start? You decided to propose a simple model for them, which combines execution and financial interest?
- Speaker #0
Honestly, it was really a, it was more a curious question to crack at the time. At the beginning, I was in Japan, so I was quite far from Europe, right? And so... That was just like, okay, what could be good?
- Speaker #1
And as you say, many people, yes, maybe think the same, observe the same.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah, I mean, there are many people thinking about this. So I was just, and we had this idea to say, okay, well, if it's a matter of execution, we probably need to have an entity that is purpose-built, that is very flexible. something on which you can build and execute something. And so we decided and we tested the idea of creating what is called in financial jargon a SPV, a special purpose vehicle or a new co. So creating basically a company in Europe that would be a shell in which we would create and execute the launch and the entry of the partner. And so this was a model that this is what is called a new code deal in a way. So we would offer biopharma the opportunity to create with us a small company, a different company, an empty shell called NUCO. That would be the nucleus of the entity that you need to deploy across Europe. And we would use this entity as an execution vehicle and we would service and we would provide expertise to this entity to grow it step by step, according to a very clean, a very clear execution plan, a very sequenced execution plan. And it was just like this idea, and we tested this idea, and this is how we came up to, at some point, a business idea. That was, okay, there is a business, and to a point that we are creating right things. But it was really about, at the beginning about this, I actually came with this idea through a young borrower who is an M&A specialist to say, okay, do you think it's just reasonable to do that? from a financial standpoint and he liked the idea and he ended up joining us as the chairman of the board. So he's one of our founders. We checked afterwards, we see... We see Ludo Hooms, who is a former CFO of Big Pharma, also an entrepreneur, and he was saying, yeah, it can work, right? And we get there, you know, step by step to the idea that, yeah, I mean, this is something that could be done. So we are not doing consulting. We are not doing licensing because we are just building organization. And we are building on behalf of our organization according to a plan that we believe is efficient and is mitigating the risk of getting to Europe. Okay,
- Speaker #1
in the middle between staying with the biotech plans and going to a big pharma plan.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, a big pharma or less big pharma plan than a licensing, typical licensing, where you, as a biopharma, you give up your rights to a third party in exchange of your... payments royalties and things like this okay and then um yes what is the win-win so the win-win is uh so we create something that is on purpose built okay so that is designed for the design for it designed for the biopharma design for the type of assets that they've got and it's very interesting for some biotechs with very specific platform or with this into specific diseases. We are co-owning this entity. for a certain period of time and the biopharma has got an option to take us out after a few years in a predefined performance-based way, so pretty straightforward. And at the end result is that they've got their own entity in Europe that is functioning, that is generating revenues, and so that they can further deploy it, they can just add with new assets and so on and so forth. Understand the market and then... So we basically cover this kind of very risky periods in Europe where from the filing to EMAR to getting to commercial patients, you've got to go through a thousand steps.
- Speaker #1
It's a regulatory...
- Speaker #0
Regulatory payers.
- Speaker #1
And payers.
- Speaker #0
I mean legal deployments across the fractionated markets, putting your feet on the ground, recruiting, hiring the right people inside and so on and so forth. And so there is zillions of things to do. When we did the autopsies of some of the biopharma getting on their own, you know, and what they've done and so on, we realized that the sequence of things that they were doing was not correct sometimes. And where they were over-investing or overdoing some elements, totally overlooking others, and that the sequence was not necessarily done the right way. So we got this very flexible construct that we can play with. And that can be their entry vehicle. Yes,
- Speaker #1
this is very flexible, innovative too, in the point of view of the company itself. And also in terms of what the owners of the company would dare to do, because it's completely new for them. It's a risk from you, but it's also a risk from them. And how is it perceived today? Have you done a yes or a no?
- Speaker #0
Fantastic. You were mentioning the number of biotechs that we, executives, we talk to. And in the last two years, we spoke to, we had a chance to really have a really serious discussion with more than 100 of them, different biotechs. And this is extremely, this was surprising, extremely welcome.
- Speaker #1
You've reached the 100 biotechs. Yeah,
- Speaker #0
just this summer. Congratulations,
- Speaker #1
because you have an exceptional view.
- Speaker #0
We follow 500 of them, so there is really a lot to do. And I keep discovering new biotechs. already phase two phase three every every month so if not every week so there are really a lot of a lot of players a lot of potential potential drugs that could be of help for for to patients so uh so yes we spoke to to 100 100 of them uh i mean the the model is is very very attractive because to them because we are I mean, it's very well adapted in this kind of VUCA world we are in, a very uncertain world because we offer to bring the resource, to bring the money, to build something. To share the risk. To share the risk and to cover the risk, to bring the expertise that they don't have, to bring also the bandwidth, the brand time they don't have to put out. But we maintain their options along the way, right, and the options to take over the business. to drive then the business moving forward. So this is really appreciated. We see a lot of CEOs in particular who were at the beginning of their business, you know, and it's really hard for them sometimes to give away to a licensing organization, something that they spend years and years to develop. And so here they stay in control. We are a temporary partnership, so we are vanishing at some point. once we've done the job. But we've got skin in the game with them also. Yes. Because we are investing in Europe for them.
- Speaker #1
Okay, and how is it going today? Have you already?
- Speaker #0
So we've got, yeah, we've got, we progressed a lot of companies. We are closing one, our first one, very soon. I can just give all the things out. And we've got three or four that are really on the short term. And it's very exciting because they are very exciting assets in a sense that they it's very innovative. We see, I mean, it's for patients, it's going to be great and so on. So really, really, really good, really good. What I like, yes, just the I mean, just to tell you, the model, I think, is interesting in a sense that is it's also, I would say filtering out, it's probably a bit strong, but incentivizing. The type of company with R&D, with a second asset or second indication, they like particularly your model because they know they're going to have their own structure for the second asset. Yes,
- Speaker #1
yes. It's a long-term plan.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, you've got this kind of company with a, you know, platform with a lot of science. We say it's not necessarily, you know, the one shot you can find or say that you've got one asset they want to monetize quick and quick. I mean, this can be also great. I mean, this can be also great assets sometimes. But here we've got this kind of very passionate people. and they uh yes and that's a uh that's adding the motivation to to work along them and uh and and yeah get their science to the final uh to the final goal right to the patients yes and um
- Speaker #1
i was wondering is it useful or can it be useful also for european biotechs we want to Address the European market and we start with the science.
- Speaker #0
That's interesting. Yeah, I think our initial assumptions was that's going to be a U.S. play because this is where you've got, of course, a lot of innovation. Needless to say, but also you've got a lot of this gap that exists in terms of cultural gap on the way things should happen. But. We realize also that Europe and biopharma were also potentially interested by this model. And actually not just them, and we may talk about this later on, but we see a more and more revision in partly Chinese companies with great potential and are also interested in this model.
- Speaker #1
Yes, yes, we talk about this. But what I like about this model is that, okay, we are, yes, you said we are in a moment where innovation is... Rising a lot, exploding, and we are in a certain world and we didn't talk about this but the budget to pay for drugs, for innovative drugs in Europe are limited. And then it's, yes, the first step in the cold water from you, yes, to decide to do something new, to propose something, and I like the idea because you... No more debt exists and you have to create, someone has to create. And yes, just try. And what is maybe the perception of the payers? What could they win about this? What is the value for them too? Because it's also an ending point.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, of course. Well, I mean, I think that the payers are not, you know, they are not evil, right? They want value. And so they want to make sure. that what you bring to the market is going to be really a value for the healthcare system overall, for the patient of course, but also in general for the healthcare system. So if you bring an innovation that is a real innovation, that you've got the right endpoints, and you've got the right demonstration, what we see is that payers are inclined to pay for the right things, right? And of course there are budget constraints and so on, but you can get there. What we also propose on the other side is really to be as lean as possible, to make sure that we are not shedding money away that would not be driving more value to patients. And so our model is very also driven towards this. But we fundamentally believe that, again, if... They are good assets, they are willingness to pay. And when you look at a difficult conversation with payers, it's often because the added value to the existing standard of care is not great or that the data that has been generated to demonstrate is not a fit, right? And that's what we try to avoid also in our process. To anticipate, yeah. Yeah, to anticipate and we like to... to talk to companies that are, to start talking to companies that are phase two, so that we can, we don't do new code at this stage or whatever, it's very light, but we can help them just reflecting on the last phase of their clinical developments to make sure that they deliver, they produce the right data set. makes the conversation with EMEA in one sense, but also with payers a better one. And so, yeah.
- Speaker #1
So you can, yes, nearly assure they will go somewhere.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And put them in, I mean, there are some misconceptions. I mean, the dynamics of pricing in the US and Europe is so different. And we cannot blame the biotechs to look first at the US market because this is what makes their investments, you know. ...viable, unfortunately. The US is really so important now in terms of financials, so they have to do that. But Europe is important as well. I mean, it can still be a sizable amount of their business. There are a lot of patients. There are more patients than in the US. So this is a go-to market. Yes,
- Speaker #1
but I think it's also, we didn't talk about these sectors, but also for big pharma to understand how lunch can be done. maybe in a more lean way and get rentability with different expenses?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've been in large pharma and we turn down sometimes assets that could be interesting to license or to acquire because they were too small because the cost of the platform is of the operating elements of the big pharma is there and you just cannot. make it work for a small population of patients most of the time, right? And we see that, for example, now the big pharma tends to step away from the orphan disease area because it's very difficult to operate and they go into the GLP and all the things that are fashionable at the moment. But there is a lot of innovation in smaller spaces, right? I was looking at the statistics, I think. There are more than 9,000 diseases with no treatments. And so, I think we've got 10,000 often, and most of them are not there. And the large majority impacts kids, right, as well. Yeah,
- Speaker #1
they talk about tsunami of innovation. And so, yes,
- Speaker #0
and so how do you get there? I think the biopharma platforms are fantastic to deploy, you know, large-scale innovation. I mean, COVID vaccines or immunologics and things like this. But for small things, you need something different probably. And this is what we try to crack here. For very specific precision medicine, you probably need another way to look at things that is more flexible, that is more purpose-built and leave options on making sure you can adapt to the... to the market conditions.
- Speaker #1
Yes indeed it's very complex but that's what makes it interesting. And can you maybe in one sentence explain your mission so we can understand really what...
- Speaker #0
Well bring innovations to patients and really do... So it's really helped biopharma to make the last mile to their patients, to the patients. Many of them have done incredible work just you know deploying from phase one to phase three. preclinical to first three. And so the last piece is very important and very often is a bit neglected because it's not seen by this R&D organization. It's not seen as a challenge, right? Well, you probably heard this, but you hear a lot of CEOs saying, you know, my product is so good. I don't need commercial. It's going to be sold like hotcakes, right? Which is never happening, of course, because this is a bit more complex than that. But OK, you cannot blame them to be there, right? What we try to do is to help them just evolve to the next step and really make sure that they don't miss what we call really the last mile. So the little piece of work, I mean, that is not so little, actually, but the little piece of work that needs to be done. from the end of your data set or the generation of data to the real patients having real access and being treated in real condition. Yes,
- Speaker #1
and then it means you make maybe, I don't know if it's a few years, five years with you. Yeah. Partnerships means they would have two years of commercialization with you and you do the... Yes, we go,
- Speaker #0
I mean, typically we go four to six. Okay. On average five, you're right. And that leaves us time to... Of course going through this regulatory process and payer and also deploy across the continent because I mean the other thing about Europe is that it's so fragmented and you cannot just do one launch and this is another concept that is quite difficult from a US standpoint. It's not one launch, it's just like 27 or more launches that are happening over two, three years, right? And so yeah, we have time to do that once we are there. It's time for us to exit.
- Speaker #1
Yes, yes, this is what they plan to do. Okay. Yes, and how is it perceived from the financials in the US too?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I mean, it was very interesting. I think the fact that the US market is now a little bit more uncertain, right? Yes, totally. I mean, of course, it's still the top priority overall. We see more and more investments, vehicles, or funds, things like this, interested in looking outside, just probably to diversify and making sure that they are not just relying on the US. We had this experience of talking to funds, which the partners were telling us, you know, it's the first time I see how business works in Europe, right? We never really... bet on this. So it means that the investment they've done in some of the biotech were just against the US potential. So it's a, initially they were not interested, but they start to be interested. Okay,
- Speaker #1
it's like to just open their eyes. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
And because also they realize, I mean, they realize that some funds got dozens of those biotechs that are now reaching, you know, phase three. And the question is, what do we do? And so They cannot find necessarily a license, they don't want to do a license, they want to go on their own and so on. And so there is this question that is coming and they see that there are more and more of these companies and this is a step that is important because it's a step of monetization, right? So it's a step where the investments start to return, right? And so they are very interested with our model. We've got a lot of traction on this, which is nice because it helps us just really planning for some fundings and so on. The difficulty we have is always to showcase a new model, right? And so it took us a little bit of time to get people acquainted to that, to see the benefits and so on. Yes,
- Speaker #1
to trust it also, yeah.
- Speaker #0
But we've got a fantastic connection now with this investments world. They see the value and see the... the need for that. When you look at, we said there are something like 2,000 assets, when you look at the number of operators that are able to bring innovation in Europe as a whole, not just counting some very sub-regional. There is less than 100, there's probably 80. So you've got 2000 assets, 80 players, there is something wrong, right? You need to have more options. And I think most of the funds understood that and the investors understood that.
- Speaker #1
Yes, and it's also a way to present Europe as an open market and with solutions. Yeah, exactly. And it's a state of problems. Yeah,
- Speaker #0
I mean, the reputation of Europe as a pharmaceutical market is not great. Sometimes, honestly, for a wrong reason. And they say there are things that are done in the very right way as well. So, yeah, it's just a different market. And this is why we try to explain and say it's not worse or... Or better, it's different than the US.
- Speaker #1
I think it's more complex.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
Then you need more time to accept.
- Speaker #0
I would almost disagree with that. I think I would agree in a way, but I would almost disagree. I think the entry is more complex. And so getting in there, the market entry, so getting into the country, into Europe is complex. And it's much more complex than the US where you've got a very free market. But we have one payer after that. But then once you convince the payer, you've got also what is called universal coverage in most of the countries. So you don't have any question ask. If there is a prescription, there is a fulfillment. In the U.S., of course, you can launch and you can pretend you launch, you know, very easily because it's free market. You set your price, you go, right? And it's there. But you've got along the way so many things to do to almost sometimes just to convince patient by patient, right? The payer to pay, right? So There is a lot of complexity that is coming progressively in the US.
- Speaker #1
It's different then.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And it's just like I said, I mean, it's different muscles. And this is where I think we believe that the issue is, right? It's capabilities are different.
- Speaker #1
Okay. Again, yes, Europe is seen as more regulated country. It is, yeah. And fragmented. Yes, fragmented. And yes, maybe the cultural aspect. And there are cultural aspects, you're right. More complex, yeah. Okay. Yeah, I'll control aspects, you're right.
- Speaker #0
More commission,
- Speaker #1
yeah. Yeah. Okay. What if a launch fails? Who pays?
- Speaker #0
So we take the risk, right? Well, financially, we take the risk to complete failure, right? That exists. The worst case. This is the worst case. I'm not saying it's never going to happen. We've got a lot of control on that. And we, again, the way to do that is to sequence your investments. And this is what we do so that if you lose, you don't lose too big, right?
- Speaker #1
You can change your mind in the middle.
- Speaker #0
We've got some, I mean, in cooperation with our biopharma partner, of course, there are ways to step out, right, if we need to. But we found this launch, right, the market entry and the deployment. So this is of financial risk, right, overall. I mean, again, we try to control that by sequencing our investments, by being, again, lean, flex. Yes,
- Speaker #1
and you will learn on the way and you're failing your rate. Exactly,
- Speaker #0
exactly. But they are, I mean, the biotechs which went alone and succeeded, they are in Europe, right? They are. Some of them flourished, right? And they did great. They had all this kind of discipline of sequencing, of getting step by step. and moving from one success to the other, and learning from the failures, and adjusting afterwards, and so on. And this is really the way to go. And again, very different from a US launch where the point is really to go strong, full in the first step, right? So that's what we try to do.
- Speaker #1
Yes, I start to imagine yourself as a group. With different companies and then it means you don't have limitations for competitive risk or anything because each one is in silos and it's one kind of approach. Because it's like, I think something really special about this industry is it means different companies, different business can be into the same house.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, that's true. I mean, what XSKIP.bio is, is primarily a platform. So a platform that is creating companies. So you're right, each of the partners got their own companies and we can operate them separately and so on. But the platform is there to be able to scale, right, and to be able to have a lot of these companies. We don't think it's, I mean, we think it's probably... a better approach in the current world where you know we've got precision medicine, you've got very targeted assets. The focus is important and more than the cross.
- Speaker #1
Yes, I would like to talk about your 100 interviews you had and to give an insight from someone, not from a position paper, about these companies, what's happening, where it comes from. What do we talk about?
- Speaker #0
Maybe we can start with what we observed is the problem, basically, which was not necessarily as clear when we started, right? Because you say, okay, maybe they don't have money, maybe they don't have, I don't know, willingness or something like this to go to Europe. What we see is a There are three things, but two things that are really stringent. First is they don't have the bandwidth. This is as simple as that, is that they are into so many other things that getting five minutes of brain time in Europe is just like a struggle. And so this is the primary thing I would say, is that they know it's great, they know it's important, they know they should do something, but the organization is not fit. And you see that in... Small but also in larger biotech is the same, right? Because there are so many other priorities or things that are perceived as other priorities that is there. So that's the first thing. And the second one is not necessarily a matter of money. It's a matter of allocation of resource. And because when you, again, speaking to those CEOs and the CBOs and chief commercial officer, it's so hard to put a dollar in Europe. when you've got also an opportunity to put the dollar in the US organization or your commercial organization or in R&D. And even if they've got these kind of plans in mind, if you've got the money to do that theoretically, it's such difficult things to say, okay, yes, we're going to put this money into that to launch in Europe. And probably based on the fact that they don't know how Europe works in most of the case and this, okay, that's the way it is. And that the perception is, and what we were discussing earlier, is that it's complicated, it's going to be a pain in the neck, and we're not sure about the return because the prices are not good, blah, blah, blah, and all these kind of things. You need to wait. Yeah, yeah. And so they say, yeah, we should, we should, you're right, we should, we should. But it's getting to the point where they put some resources to do that. instead of doing something else is very difficult. So we see the struggle even in a very well-funded biotech. And that was the interesting thing. So we are not just dealing with companies who are short of cash, right? Yes,
- Speaker #1
and the third one?
- Speaker #0
The third one is the cultural, we alluded to that, is the cultural bit again, where you... Of course we are. I mean, again, I'm talking mostly about the US here and we are Westerners, right? So there is a kind of a sense that we think a little bit the same way, we operate a bit the same way, and that the US market and the open market are very close, right? Actually they are not. And so this is creating a lot of misconceptions and a lot of things because the assumption is that we are very close. Interestingly, the perception that we have, and when you deal with Chinese companies, for example, or Japanese companies, you know that there is a cultural gap, and so you take care of that. And interestingly, I think it's easier to interact and to really get into these questions or these questions of differences with Asian or Japanese companies. than with the US where the assumption is that we're probably the same, right? Which is not true. I mean, of course, I mean, the MA and FDA are doing a lot of common stuff. I mean, but that's it, right? The rest is so different.
- Speaker #1
And for Eastern companies?
- Speaker #0
So, I mean, we had a very interesting conversation with, and we hope that we can get a deal with an Asian company. Chinese in particular. I think there is really a big tectonic move at the moment in the biotech area where Chinese organizations are really coming to a point where they are not just creating you know, Me Too's or Generics or things like this, they are really driving innovation. And they do that in a very professional way, very neat, very clean way. We had access to a few data rooms and we had a chance to look at some data and it's very well done, honestly. And so it's going to succeed, right, at some point. And it's going to compete with probably the US and European biotech. They've got a very different... view that is a bit more long-term, I would say, overall, where they are a bit less concerned by reaching the patients as soon as possible and something like this. Of course, they want to, right? But they are really conscious of building on the long run. Yes,
- Speaker #1
they invested since 20 years. Yeah,
- Speaker #0
exactly. Exactly. And they've got a long-term perspective that is interesting. And so we've got, they are also very interested in our model for this reason as well, because they see us as a kind of a step to step into Europe. And then they've got their own business in Europe and then they're fine, right? But the conversation is, we'd be much more, what's going after that? What is happening after the partnership? Rather than what is happening during the partnership, where when do we get the patients? When do we really get a price and so on and so forth? Yes. And so we've got way more conversation on how to build. what's going to be the impact on the long run and so on and so forth. So this is a really different conversation. But they're going to be there for sure. And they're going to be there for a right reason because they're going to bring innovation and really nice assets.
- Speaker #1
Then maybe the political situation is maybe changing some biotech strategies.
- Speaker #0
I mean, yes, of course. There has been a lot of... Things happening, particularly since the beginning of the year with the new US administration, that are touching us indirectly. And I think tariffs is not touching us directly, because for us it's bringing things into Europe, so it's not selling something to US. But it's creating uncertainty. All the things that are going on with the FDA, all the shake-ups in the FDA administration and so on, is creating uncertainty. conversation on what is called most favored nation, which try to align the prices with Europe and the US or try to get the European paying more for innovation. This is also creating questions and so on. And it's it's it's it's it's delaying for us is delaying that the the the decision in general. But it's not necessarily, you know. Cutting out the discussions too and just the just you know cutting out everything out of Europe and say I mean we've got some companies telling us okay we don't probably don't go to Europe because it's too complicated now it's not but it's not too much of that and then for the Chinese it's also very interesting because they or the Chinese or Japanese but the Chinese in particular they want also to not just invest into the US but also they understand that they also need to invest into to your upright. Yes. And so we've got this this an increased interest, I think, of of Chinese companies.
- Speaker #1
Yes.
- Speaker #0
To step in on biotech, to step in Europe. And there is this I mean, in Switzerland here, there is this Biogen model, B1 model that is also a good a good blueprint for many Chinese based companies.
- Speaker #1
And why did you decide to to fund the company here, to ground the company in Europe?
- Speaker #0
Well, um, Yeah, it's a good question.
- Speaker #1
Is there a reason or no?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I mean, there is. Besides the fact that some of our funders are Swiss, and I used to live in Switzerland for a long time, but we believe that Switzerland is really a very good combination of business features. I think it's very stable. I mean, this is business-friendly. I mean, this is all the things that is known, right? But what is very important is, I think, If you look at Europe, this is the largest hub of talent, period. There is no other competing area, at least from commercial talents or late-stage talents, I would say. And so our model is about creating businesses, so it's about hiring also people, it's about having those competencies to have excellence in-house, and so it's very important that we are in the middle of that. and that we can just tap into this fantastic ecosystem of Switzerland. So yeah, I would say first is probably the talent pool and second is probably the business friendly elements.
- Speaker #1
And yes, talking about the talents you need.
- Speaker #0
Can you explain a bit? The way we work is twofold actually. We've got our own platform, so XCube.bio, which is providing services and providing also expertise to set up the new calls, to set up the new entities and so on. And for that we've got a network of talents. We've got probably close to 50 experts. in our networks, in all the functions that you can imagine. And we need to have a very comprehensive and thorough network here because we are dealing with companies with very specific technologies. So when you've got a radiopharmaceutical company, you cannot just get your random CMC or your random regulatory. You need someone who knows this, right? And so we've got... It's very important for us to have this talent pool. So first thing. The second element is that when we create the new code, we need to populate the new code. In general, we create an entity here in Switzerland that is going to deploy across Europe. But we put the headquarter here. And so this is where we need to have people with the commercial excellence expertise, again, in various disease areas. So, uh, okay. We go from a neuroscience with something in very specific neuroscience elements to rare oncology or rare disease and so on. And you need different profiles and you need to have this kind of diversity around you to be able to ramp up your organization. And I don't see too many other countries with that level of diversity and the breadth. of talents that exist in Europe at least. Okay,
- Speaker #1
yes. To be able to have an... Yes, to deal with Europe. Yeah. Okay. We still have a few minutes. I would like to talk about the future. Yeah. What do you think is the biggest threat of this system, this European system?
- Speaker #0
That's a broad question. Yes. I struggle to answer this question to be honest because we don't see that as a threat, right? The way we try to think about it is as a given, right? And this is the way it is at the moment. How do we make the best of that? And how do we, you know, play with the system to be able to reach the patient in a viable, in a financially viable way, right, for biotech? So I would say... I would say, of course, the difficulty is going to be the budget and the prioritization of the budget of healthcare systems in Europe. Where do you... You know you've got a limited budget. Where do you put your efforts? Do you want to go into very specific diseases that may be a bit more expensive, but very neglected or very difficult to treat things? Or are you going to... to go into or invest your money into you know early stage or just you know primary medicine all these kind of things and we see this is not always very good we see in some countries that there is a lot of money spent on you know analgesics and first-line things and reimburse very very well right and then it's putting pressure on you know the last cancer treatments that is probably going to save the life of someone, right? But a few, right? And so this is probably this unclear prioritization that is probably a threat, I believe. The fit for precision medicine, if you want, at the end. So are we going to get into a world where we take care more of this kind of very difficult things?
- Speaker #1
Unclear, you say.
- Speaker #0
So I would say that.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, the strategy is unclear to what we want to... Okay. Yes, what's interesting is you're in the middle of innovation and science and product. Then it's also maybe a way to invest in science and to push science. For you, it may be difficult because you bring innovation from abroad.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I mean, we bring solutions for patients, so we bring solutions for healthcare, right? I mean, I would hope that there is more of the open innovations coming, and it looks, it seems... The European institutions are getting there slowly, but they probably need to muscle up, of course, the investments in early stage biotech and things like this. Where we are focused is really probably a bit more on, again, the delivery to the patients and how we have, at the end of the day, a more healthy population, or at least some people are really treated better. right and the and here yes there is There is already a lot to do because there are those less staged assets that are ready. And there is really a tsunami that is coming. So the question of the privatization is going to be very acute at some point in payers' discussion and in budget and political discussions in some countries because either you accept to Not fund some medicine and lag a little bit behind, which is already starting to see, we start to see in some countries, right? Lag a little bit behind in terms of innovations and you leave patients without solutions that exist elsewhere in the world. Or you make the decisions to really fund that, making sure that the access is preserved for assets that are well demonstrated for adding values. And then you do maybe a little bit less on other things, right, that are... less life-threatening, less serious. I don't know how to qualify that, but there is this shift, right? And probably flexibility is going to be very important to do, and this is not always the most evident features of a healthcare system that are not that flexible. And so, yeah, that's where the tension may come. But we are here to, I mean, we see ourselves as... here to help, right? Not just to fight. It's really about how we can do the best with this system and try to make innovation affordable. Yes, but it's also interesting because in front of you,
- Speaker #1
it's the big pharma model, which is not flexible too.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah. I mean, they've got, again, I mean, they've got their merits and they've got such a, I mean, I'm not, I don't want to blame Big Pharma because it's not about this, but they've got merits in bringing, you know, this large scale innovation. And they do that in a great way. But there are other things to do, right? And there are all these smaller disease areas where flexibility is probably more important. Yes,
- Speaker #1
the point is in front of problems, what do you propose?
- Speaker #0
What can you adapt? And so we see so many drugs that are getting really close to market. At the moment, there is no plan to go to Europe, and that's a shame. I mean, among the advanced markets, this is the biggest patient market, if I may say it like this, or the patient pool, right? There is much more patients than in the U.S. alone. So you cannot just, I mean, in my view, you cannot just go without, right? You have to be there. You have to be in Europe.
- Speaker #1
Yes, and how do you see your company in five years?
- Speaker #0
So, yeah, good questions. With a lot of NUCO, a lot of partners, we are building the platform to be able to scale. So that's really about, it's not just about having one or two, it's really just being able to go a lot. There are also other geographies that we're interested in. Probably bias because I lived in Japan for some time and I think the Japanese market is also in a way... I'll share common things with the European one. It's very difficult to get in. Okay. But once you're in, it's a fantastic healthcare system. Again, very well organized, very well funded. You need to step in, and it's difficult for multiple reasons. So that would be, I mean, I would love to really duplicate or just extend this model to other geographies like Japan, Australia. We are lucky to have a partner in Canada as well that is already. Okay. helping us there.
- Speaker #1
And do you think it can be also an interesting model? Okay, maybe to try for big pharmas in the beginning of the launch?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I mean... Just to...
- Speaker #1
I don't know if you try, but to improve and to...
- Speaker #0
We haven't yet, but it's a very nice idea. I think there are in the portfolio of many large farmer. Drugs that are not prioritized for the reason we talk to, that's not big enough, blah blah blah, and so on. Where you can imagine that we can be a partner of this biofarm and just put that on the market and just give it back at some point. So yeah, it can be a model as well. I would say.
- Speaker #1
Okay, now we will conclude with the advice you could share. Maybe which advice you can give for European policymakers?
- Speaker #0
Wow, policymakers? Yeah, I mean...
- Speaker #1
Because it's a place where we try to understand each other. Yeah,
- Speaker #0
yeah, no, of course. I think be flexible. Yes, give a strategy, Kim. Yeah, be flexible. Make sure you do the right priority in terms of funding. You explained it, yeah. And that's a... Whatever the priorities are, that is clear, right? And that we can have a conversation on the right basis, right? Okay. And so, yeah, I would say that if I have to say something.
- Speaker #1
Which advice you want to... you could give for a biotech CEO?
- Speaker #0
I would tell them, don't neglect Europe. It's a great market. It's a great... place to also learn for them. And because they are good scientists, they are good doctors, they are a lot of patients. And so be prepared and grow the right muscle to get there. And we are here to help if need be.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, okay. Thank you.
- Speaker #0
Thank you very much. Very nice.
- Speaker #1
Thank you. I think what's interesting is what you're doing is bigger than just building a business it's maybe trying to potentially save lives.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I mean, yes, thank you for saying that. I think we... The thing is that I never woke up in the morning just saying, hey, I'm going to build a business, right? It was really just kind of cracking a challenge or cracking these questions of how we can do things differently, better, and so on. And that's what we're trying to achieve still. And I'm lucky. I have a lot of co-founders. and partners that are thinking the same way. So yes,
- Speaker #1
what I like is trying to be skin in the game in this process. Yeah,
- Speaker #0
yeah, we have to.
- Speaker #1
If our auditors want to get in contact with you, where can they go?
- Speaker #0
Well, we are active on LinkedIn, so I'm happy to. The LinkedIn page is there. Yes, I can give you my number and it's very easy to reach. There's no question. I'm very active and we always value also having contact with experts in Europe that also help us just being stronger, being more relevant in the market
- Speaker #1
I give you a question like this What do we need today?
- Speaker #0
We need always more funding that's one that's the easy one the easy or the most complicated that he does. What we need as well is really talents and more talents. We are always looking for very specific profiles because we are coming across biotechs with very specific needs, right? And so all the people with experience in the market, whatever the experience, we are always very keen to connect and if they can help us and if we can help them, that's the way to go.
- Speaker #1
Super. Thank you.
- Speaker #0
Thank you.
- Speaker #1
Thank you for listening to this episode. It was great to share this story about connection, inspiration and creating a positive legacy. Don't forget to subscribe to stay updated on future episodes and talk to you soon. A bientôt.
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